Thought bron was gaining on the goat but it’s not close

Professor Emeritus

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Here y’all come with the thesis…ain’t nobody reading all this shyt breh…

It was 5 sentences, not a thesis. I know this is the Twitter era but come on now.




we saw Jordan live when it happened and we saw lebron live as it’s happening.

A GOAT shouldn’t need all sorts of documentation and counter documentation against other goats. There’s no shame being the second greatest player ever.

When Jordan took the torch from magic, lakers fans didn’t spend the next 10 years coming up with diagrams and shyt, they new it was the case.

lol, you claim a GOAT doesn't need it except Jordan just made a 10-part series doing exactly that, and full of duck tales too.

Lakers fans didn't do it in MJ's era because they couldn't. Social media didn't even exist. Narratives were controlled by the NBA, Nike, and the media, and they made a conscious decision to promote MJ. They literally did exactly what you claim no one needed to do, and much more effectively because there was no avenue for anyone to push back.
 
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lol, you claim a GOAT doesn't need it except Jordan just made a 10-part series doing exactly that, and full of duck tales too.

Lakers fans didn't do it in MJ's era because they couldn't. Social media didn't even exist. Narratives were controlled by the NBA, Nike, and the media, and they made a conscious decision to promote MJ. They literally did exactly what you claim no one needed to do, and much more effectively because there was no avenue for anyone to push back.

You’re a great poster and I don’t want To get in some meaningless argument with you. If you believe lebron is the goat that’s acceptable. It’s not like you’re saying James worthy is the goat.

Part of the MJ mystique is the era, lack of social media, being the first highly marketed nba player, show deals, etc.

IMHO the lebron push feels inorganic and while he’s no less than top 3, and #2 in my book, he’s not the goat.
 

Professor Emeritus

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You’re a great poster and I don’t want To get in some meaningless argument with you. If you believe lebron is the goat that’s acceptable. It’s not like you’re saying James worthy is the goat.

Part of the MJ mystique is the era, lack of social media, being the first highly marketed nba player, show deals, etc.

IMHO the lebron push feels inorganic and while he’s no less than top 3, and #2 in my book, he’s not the goat.


Please don't put words in my mouth. I literally said this just today in this very thread:

I still think, though, if you go solely by legacy and how they played against their peers at the time, MJ has the best GOAT case. 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, and not a single seriously bad playoff series is tough to beat even if you can say that he had certain advantages. MJ's case for GOAT is the clearest. If you go by overall play as an all-around basketball player and take competition into account, they both have strong cases. But then the people who say that it's stupid to try to crown one GOAT, that we can't compare players with different roles and eras like that and should just enjoy them for who they are, also have a strong point.
 

Born2BKing

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What hate?:what:

Look at how James Harden was treated for not winning despite his historical “stats” when he was at Houston. His playoff failures were ALWAYS held against him despite his numbers. It is the complete opposite with Lebron who is praised for stars regularly losing despite being on Superteams :scust:
Calling a nikka with 4 rings and 10 finals appearances a loser, is straight up hating. Who is your GOAT basketball player?
 

fifth column

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MJ is not a "far more deadly defender", he wasn't even the best perimeter defender on his own team. As Phil pointed out, MJ was a gambler who got gaudy steal/block stats, he wasn't a lockdown guy and he didn't anchor/lead the defense from the middle like Bron.

And Bron averages about 40% more assists a game than MJ did. That's a huge difference, and the actual impact of Bron's playmaking is even bigger than that because his playmaking drove the offense for most of those teams while MJ usually got his assists within the triangle system.

For his career per-100, MJ averages 40-8-7 on 51% eFG
For his career per-100, LBJ averages 37-10-10 on 55% eFG

3 extra assists far more impactful than 3 extra points, especially when the points were on worse efficiency. And Bron did it against better competition.
MJ led a dynasty with 2 3 peats
MJ has led the Bulls to 6-0 with 6 fmvp and no game 7s
MJ has the highest playoff avg ppg
MJ has the highest reg season ppg

Give Lebron MJs stats/accomplishments and he would be the new goat but we can’t do that
 

fifth column

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Ya'll delusional af. No one cares if you think MJ is the goat and someone else thinks someone else is the goat. You do and you make it a mission to try to say no one is close when several have a better case for being goat than MJ and some who aren't have a claim that they could have had a better career.

MJ is elite. Definetly deserving of someone with the claim of that title but it's not this goofy thing his stupid stans think where he's above and beyond. He has never been anywhere near as good as his stans would like to believe he is
I think MJ was actually better than what his stans believe. You go 1st
 

10bandz

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There's a long extended look at his defense over his career.

TLDR: For his first 3 years he was an unpolished risk-taker who wasn't particularly impressive on defense, then in his 4th/5th years he became a defensive monster who was dominant in a variety of ways though still making mistakes at a high rate due to his risk taking. From 1990-1993 he backed off the crazy defensive pace significantly to conserve energy and let other players take the load, but could still be dangerous when he picked his spots. In the 2nd threepeat he didn't have the athleticism anymore and still was conserving energy on the defensive end, but made up for it with improved awareness.

Overall, he was an elite impact for a wing defender (35th all-time on his rankings) but because he wasn't a rim-protector in the paint and couldn't check big men, he didn't have the top-level defensive impact of elite centers or more versatile defenders like Pippen and LeBron:






"On defense, he entered the league as an unpolished risk-taker. His footwork wasn’t sharp and he constantly gambled for steals, like this"



He loved to snipe the post, sneaking away from his man for a steal, then leaking out in transition. Only, he whiffed a lot:



His rotations to the rim were soft, often avoiding contact and rarely dissuading the shot. His on-ball defense wasn’t anything to write home about in those first few years either:





But then, in the summer of 1987, he sprinkled fairy dust on himself and magically learned to defend. While his man D improved a bit in his third year, it leapt forward in his fourth (1988). He curtailed his habit of leaking out for steals — probably a factor in his defensive rebounding spike that year — and many of his silly gambles were replaced with highly-attentive rotations, laser-focused steal attempts and even some rim protection:



is reactions were sharper, his reads smarter and his motor revved up higher than any other season, save for 1989. He also improved his footwork on the ball, where he would often lockdown opposing point guards. In the following play, notice how he uses his size and textbook positioning to slow down Isiah’s drive into the lane. In the second clip, he clinically hedges around a screen before his trademark swipe leads to a turnover:





But his style was still high-risk, high-reward, and his defensive error rates were on the high side, landing in the 17th percentile for the heart of his career. His highlights are impressive, but he bled value at times.

For instance, in the 1991 Finals, Jordan slowed the Magic Johnson train by picking him up in the backcourt, preventing him from building a head of steam. In the low-post, Chicago constantly doubled Magic, and although Jordan did a solid job bodying him up at times, he also struck out on a number of steal attempts:



His transition awareness could be a problem, misjudging threats in front of and behind him:



Like nearly every guard, he was too small to check bigs, limiting some of his impact when compared to more versatile defenders like Pippen or LeBron. He was never a vertical paint defender, instead swiping for steals with his ginormous mitts while his teammates challenged shots up high. Yet his cobra-like strikes obliterated plays when they worked:



His sneak-attacks generated six of the top-200 steal percentages ever recorded, but his gambling style exposed the Bulls at times. He’s so jazzed to intercept this outlet that he bites at the mere sight of a pass:



At other times, his bets led to huge payoffs — his ambush blocks could blow up possessions, and he often played the pass in odd-man fast breaks, baiting challengers like a basketball Jedi. This isn’t the layup you’re looking for:





In 1990, his motor slowed from the fever pitch he had played at for two years, and his defensive involvement tapered down a bit. He idled more, resting his engines to conserve fuel. Although, on possessions where he went full throttle, he made ball-denial an art, navigating screens (a strength of his) and shutting off passing lanes:



During the second three-peat, he swapped athleticism for guile, relying on added strength to grind through picks or to stake valuable position. Here, he completely kills Orlando’s idea of a cross-screen into a post-up, flaming out the entire possession:



He liked to linger in the lane and help against penetration, but improved awareness made this tactic more efficient — notice how he immediately locates the ball as he passes through the paint, de-prioritizing his own cover (Chris Mullin) to shut off a dribbling threat:



..

Consistent with his drawbacks on tape, there’s little evidence that Jordan’s defense moved the needle like a titanic big man. His defensive plus-minus values from ’97 and ’98 were both strong for a wing — around 35th among scaled four-year peaks, next to Bruce Bowen — but given his post-retirement defensive prowess, I consider it unlikely that his earlier years were much more impactful"



Embarrassing
 

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Please don't put words in my mouth. I literally said this just today in this very thread:
It bothers you that MJ’s case for the goat is so strong, that’s why you beat your head against your keyboard searching the dark web for anything to disparage MJ and prop up the clearly inferior wannabe Lebron :hubie:
 

#1 pick

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MJ led a dynasty with 2 3 peats
MJ has led the Bulls to 6-0 with 6 fmvp and no game 7s
MJ has the highest playoff avg ppg
MJ has the highest reg season ppg

Give Lebron MJs stats/accomplishments and he would be the new goat but we can’t do that
I'll give MJ credit, for doing something Bron didn't do and that's win every final when favorite. Bron didn't get it done against Dallas and we all can agree on that. That said, he got it done when he didn't have clearly the best team whereas MJ never got it done when he didn't have the best team or wasn't the favorite. MJ is a front runner. LeBron is the ultimate put the team on his back guy. That said, MJ was favorite against Orlando and lost to them in 95. MJ fans will make a million excuses but he didn't get it done against Orlando as favorites.

To me, MJ has a very strong case but Bron case is much stronger. He beat teams he had no business beating. I can't say the same for Jordan.
 
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I'll give MJ credit, for doing something Bron didn't do and that's win every final when favorite. Bron didn't get it done against Dallas and we all can agree on that. That said, he got it done when he didn't have clearly the best team whereas MJ never got it done when he didn't have the best team or wasn't the favorite. MJ is a front runner. LeBron is the ultimate put the team on his back guy. That said, MJ was favorite against Orlando and lost to them in 95. MJ fans will make a million excuses but he didn't get it done against Orlando as favorites.

To me, MJ has a very strong case but Bron case is much stronger. He beat teams he had no business beating. I can't say the same for Jordan.


I'll give MJ credit, for doing something Bron didn't do and that's win every final when favorite. Bron didn't get it done against Dallas and we all can agree on that. That said, he got it done when he didn't have clearly the best team whereas MJ never got it done when he didn't have the best team or wasn't the favorite. MJ is a front runner. LeBron is the ultimate put the team on his back guy. That said, MJ was favorite against Orlando and lost to them in 95. MJ fans will make a million excuses but he didn't get it done against Orlando as favorites.

To me, MJ has a very strong case but Bron case is much stronger. He beat teams he had no business beating. I can't say the same for Jordan.

Nike thought he and his 60 plus wins teams were favorites in 09-10 though. That’s why they ran commercials. Kobe & The Lakers made it…the other team did not
 
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