Thought bron was gaining on the goat but it’s not close

Professor Emeritus

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nikka, i didnt come up with this shyt. the dude who came up with the SRS metric did

dont get mad at me because of where he places lebrons 2013 and 2020 titles. if you dont like the metric he came up with come up with your own shyt kid


Breh you can find anything you want on the internet, don't post horrible takes and then hide your hands. :heh:

I exposed how bad it was and exactly why, so give up. No one who claims that the Lakers' 2001 run was the 2nd toughest in modern basketball has any reason to be listened to.
 

Jazzy B.

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This some straight hater shyt. Got damn :russ:

What hate?:what:

Look at how James Harden was treated for not winning despite his historical “stats” when he was at Houston. His playoff failures were ALWAYS held against him despite his numbers. It is the complete opposite with Lebron who is praised for stars regularly losing despite being on Superteams :scust:
 

Sunalmighty

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Breh you can find anything you want on the internet, don't post horrible takes and then hide your hands. :heh:

I exposed how bad it was and exactly why, so give up. No one who claims that the Lakers' 2001 run was the 2nd toughest in modern basketball has any reason to be listened to.
you develop a metric to support what you have to say.

end of story.

no moe talk
 

Professor Emeritus

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What hate?:what:

You claimed that every other superstar in history was focused on for his wins, not his stats, and that no other superstar had been celebrated for losing.


* Ignoring that Barry Bonds is recognized as the batting GOAT based solely off of stats, not winning

* Ignoring that Ted Williams was one of the batting GOATs based solely off of stats, not winning

* Ignoring that Jerry West won a fukking Finals MVP while losing and was a Lakers' legend despite going 0-9 in his first 9 Finals, only finally winning as the 3rd best player in a horrible performance at the end of his career.

* Ignoring that Allen Iverson is legendary for a combination of stats and losing in the Finals

* Ignoring that 90% of Wilt Chamberlain's legend is from stats, not winning

* Ignoring players like Oscar Robertson and Russ Westbrook built their reputations on stats, not on winning

* Ignoring quarterbacks like Dan Marino, John Elway, and Peyton Manning built their reps largely off of stats, not winning Super Bowls


And ignoring that I just named 10 superstars, several of whom are GOAT in their sport or close to it, and yet Bron has more titles and title MVPs than almost all of them combined.





Look at how James Harden was treated for not winning despite his historical “stats” when he was at Houston. His playoff failures were ALWAYS held against him despite his numbers.

Harden played like dogshyt in all of those losses, dumbass. What "numbers" are you talking about? :dead:

Here's the last twelve BIG games that Harden played in:

12-29 from the field, 2-13 from three, 6 assists to 5 turnovers
10-24 from the field, 4-12 from three, 9 assists to 9 turnovers
5-21 from the field, 0-11 from three, 4 assists to 6 turnovers
8-22 from the field, 1-7 from three, 3 assists to 8 turnovers
7-22 from the field, 1-7 from three, 4 assists to 3 turnovers
2-11 from the field, 2-9 from three, 7 assists to 6 turnovers and fouled out
11-24 from the field, 5-16 from three, 10 assists to 9 turnovers
8-25 from the field, 2-13 from three, 4 assists to 5 turnovers
5-16 from the field, 0-7 from three, 8 assists to 7 turnovers
2-11 from the field, 0-3 from three, 5 assists to 12 turnovers
7-20 from the field, 2-7 from three, 8 assists to 7 turnovers
5-20 from the field, 2-6 from three, 3 assists to 1 turnover, sat during team's entire comeback run

That's the last three games in the series against Golden State, the last two against Utah, the last two against San Antonio, the last two against OKC, the last game against Golden State, and the last two against the Clippers

33% from the field. 19% from three. 6 assists a game. 7 turnovers a game.

Bron gets praised in "losses" for taking shytty casts far further than expected with incredible performances. Harden has NEVER done that, not even once.
 

Diondon

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Jordan is the GOAT, but Bron is a better player. That's what kats should be saying.

Due to him being the GOAT all-around player, Bron is probably the only player that could pull off that 2016 comeback against fukk nikka State.
Avg 1 or 2 more assists or rebounds while MJ is the far more deadly scorer & defender (miss me with the anecdotal 1 through 5 crap) doesn't make Lebron a better player
Also MJ doesn't have the embarrassing failures & meltdown Bron has
and definitely longevity stats dont make Lebron better
 

Red Money

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Jordan is the GOAT, but Bron is a better player. That's what kats should be saying.

Due to him being the GOAT all-around player, Bron is probably the only player that could pull off that 2016 comeback against fukk nikka State.

Bron ain't even better than Kobe.

Bron is in the Shaq category and position. If Shaq took better care of himself he would have had longevity stats too.
 

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Avg 1 or 2 more assists or rebounds while MJ is the far more deadly scorer & defender (miss me with the anecdotal 1 through 5 crap) doesn't make Lebron a better player

MJ is not a "far more deadly defender", he wasn't even the best perimeter defender on his own team. As Phil pointed out, MJ was a gambler who got gaudy steal/block stats, he wasn't a lockdown guy and he didn't anchor/lead the defense from the middle like Bron.

And Bron averages about 40% more assists a game than MJ did. That's a huge difference, and the actual impact of Bron's playmaking is even bigger than that because his playmaking drove the offense for most of those teams while MJ usually got his assists within the triangle system.

For his career per-100, MJ averages 40-8-7 on 51% eFG
For his career per-100, LBJ averages 37-10-10 on 55% eFG

3 extra assists far more impactful than 3 extra points, especially when the points were on worse efficiency. And Bron did it against better competition.
 
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#1 pick

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What does this even mean?!? That’s like saying Ali’s fan base is the worst or Brady’s fan base is the worst. These dudes are unanimous, impregnable. There is nothing to poke at. :heh:

If it makes you mad it’s bc nggas like to be contrarian its in their blood so if someone is THAT unanimously the best
, some nggas will pull some shyt out there ass ‘Jordan played vs plumbers’ or ‘low key if it wasn’t for Scottie..’. These are the arguments of folk who’d see someone walk on water and say ‘ok but he can’t swim’

‘Hate Jordan fans’. Tf :why: Until you young nggas got old enough to get on the net ngga EVERYBODY was a Jordan fan:mjtf:
Ya'll delusional af. No one cares if you think MJ is the goat and someone else thinks someone else is the goat. You do and you make it a mission to try to say no one is close when several have a better case for being goat than MJ and some who aren't have a claim that they could have had a better career.

MJ is elite. Definetly deserving of someone with the claim of that title but it's not this goofy thing his stupid stans think where he's above and beyond. He has never been anywhere near as good as his stans would like to believe he is
 

Red Money

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MJ is not a "far more deadly defender", he wasn't even the best perimeter defender on his own team. As Phil pointed out, MJ was a gambler who got gaudy steal/block stats, he wasn't a lockdown guy and he didn't anchor/lead the defense from the middle like Bron.

And Bron averages about 40% more assists a game than MJ did. That's a huge difference, and the actual impact of Bron's playmaking is even bigger than that because his playmaking drove the offense for most of those teams while MJ usually got his assists within the triangle system.

For his career per-100, MJ averages 40-8-7 on 51% eFG
For his career per-100, LBJ averages 37-10-10 on 55% eFG

3 extra assists far more impactful than 3 extra points, especially when the points were on worse efficiency. And Bron did it against better competition.

Jordan and Pippen picked up players 3/4 court in their athletic primes. Pippen with the crazy wingspan and inch in height had the advantage....but they both could sit in the chair and make it difficult for players.

People couldn't really reach and teach Jordan...he could bait players into mistakes.
 

Professor Emeritus

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Thing is, no one need convincing MJ is the goat, meanwhile the Bron camp always has all kinds of thesis and shyt :mjlol::mjlol::mjlol:


No one? Really? So you're unaware there was a massive Nike, NBA, ESPN, and general media campaign for over a decade to create MJ's image as the unassailable GOAT?







Hell, he retired 20 years ago and yet they're still pushing 10-part documentaries trying to build up MJ's status as the GOAT:








When a media figure, or a corporate advertizer, or even a documentary shaped by MJ himself, spends hours and hours for years and years trying to build up MJ's image as an unassailable GOAT, you just lap it up. But when anyone pushes back, you try to take away even their right to make a case. That shows how easy corporate narratives capture you.
 
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No one? Really? So you're unaware there was a massive Nike, NBA, ESPN, and general media campaign for over a decade to create MJ's image as the unassailable GOAT?







Hell, he retired 20 years ago and yet they're still pushing 10-part documentaries trying to build up MJ's status as the GOAT:








When a media figure, or a corporate advertizer, or even a documentary shaped by MJ himself, spends hours and hours for years and years trying to build up MJ's image as an unassailable GOAT, you just lap it up. But when anyone pushes back, you try to take away even their right to make a case. That shows how easy corporate narratives capture you.


Here y’all come with the thesis…ain’t nobody reading all this shyt breh…we saw Jordan live when it happened and we saw lebron live as it’s happening.

A GOAT shouldn’t need all sorts of documentation and counter documentation against other goats. There’s no shame being the second greatest player ever.

When Jordan took the torch from magic, lakers fans didn’t spend the next 10 years coming up with diagrams and shyt, they new it was the case.
 

Professor Emeritus

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Jordan and Pippen picked up players 3/4 court in their athletic primes. Pippen with the crazy wingspan and inch in height had the advantage....but they both could sit in the chair and make it difficult for players.

People couldn't really reach and teach Jordan...he could bait players into mistakes.


There's a long extended look at his defense over his career.

TLDR: For his first 3 years he was an unpolished risk-taker who wasn't particularly impressive on defense, then in his 4th/5th years he became a defensive monster who was dominant in a variety of ways though still making mistakes at a high rate due to his risk taking. From 1990-1993 he backed off the crazy defensive pace significantly to conserve energy and let other players take the load, but could still be dangerous when he picked his spots. In the 2nd threepeat he didn't have the athleticism anymore and still was conserving energy on the defensive end, but made up for it with improved awareness.

Overall, he was an elite impact for a wing defender (35th all-time on his rankings) but because he wasn't a rim-protector in the paint and couldn't check big men, he didn't have the top-level defensive impact of elite centers or more versatile defenders like Pippen and LeBron:






"On defense, he entered the league as an unpolished risk-taker. His footwork wasn’t sharp and he constantly gambled for steals, like this"



He loved to snipe the post, sneaking away from his man for a steal, then leaking out in transition. Only, he whiffed a lot:



His rotations to the rim were soft, often avoiding contact and rarely dissuading the shot. His on-ball defense wasn’t anything to write home about in those first few years either:





But then, in the summer of 1987, he sprinkled fairy dust on himself and magically learned to defend. While his man D improved a bit in his third year, it leapt forward in his fourth (1988). He curtailed his habit of leaking out for steals — probably a factor in his defensive rebounding spike that year — and many of his silly gambles were replaced with highly-attentive rotations, laser-focused steal attempts and even some rim protection:



is reactions were sharper, his reads smarter and his motor revved up higher than any other season, save for 1989. He also improved his footwork on the ball, where he would often lockdown opposing point guards. In the following play, notice how he uses his size and textbook positioning to slow down Isiah’s drive into the lane. In the second clip, he clinically hedges around a screen before his trademark swipe leads to a turnover:





But his style was still high-risk, high-reward, and his defensive error rates were on the high side, landing in the 17th percentile for the heart of his career. His highlights are impressive, but he bled value at times.

For instance, in the 1991 Finals, Jordan slowed the Magic Johnson train by picking him up in the backcourt, preventing him from building a head of steam. In the low-post, Chicago constantly doubled Magic, and although Jordan did a solid job bodying him up at times, he also struck out on a number of steal attempts:



His transition awareness could be a problem, misjudging threats in front of and behind him:



Like nearly every guard, he was too small to check bigs, limiting some of his impact when compared to more versatile defenders like Pippen or LeBron. He was never a vertical paint defender, instead swiping for steals with his ginormous mitts while his teammates challenged shots up high. Yet his cobra-like strikes obliterated plays when they worked:



His sneak-attacks generated six of the top-200 steal percentages ever recorded, but his gambling style exposed the Bulls at times. He’s so jazzed to intercept this outlet that he bites at the mere sight of a pass:



At other times, his bets led to huge payoffs — his ambush blocks could blow up possessions, and he often played the pass in odd-man fast breaks, baiting challengers like a basketball Jedi. This isn’t the layup you’re looking for:





In 1990, his motor slowed from the fever pitch he had played at for two years, and his defensive involvement tapered down a bit. He idled more, resting his engines to conserve fuel. Although, on possessions where he went full throttle, he made ball-denial an art, navigating screens (a strength of his) and shutting off passing lanes:



During the second three-peat, he swapped athleticism for guile, relying on added strength to grind through picks or to stake valuable position. Here, he completely kills Orlando’s idea of a cross-screen into a post-up, flaming out the entire possession:



He liked to linger in the lane and help against penetration, but improved awareness made this tactic more efficient — notice how he immediately locates the ball as he passes through the paint, de-prioritizing his own cover (Chris Mullin) to shut off a dribbling threat:



..

Consistent with his drawbacks on tape, there’s little evidence that Jordan’s defense moved the needle like a titanic big man. His defensive plus-minus values from ’97 and ’98 were both strong for a wing — around 35th among scaled four-year peaks, next to Bruce Bowen — but given his post-retirement defensive prowess, I consider it unlikely that his earlier years were much more impactful"
 
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