Religion/Spirituality Theism Discussion (Abrahamic Religions, Religious Philosophy, etc.)

[jsmiller]

I think one thing that Muslims should realize is Christians aren't dividing God into thirds as the Qur'an states. Christians are fiercely monotheistic and state that there is no other god than God the one. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." We (Christians and Muslims) can wholeheartedly agree on that.

God cannot be divided, God is not made up of parts, and this is not what the doctrine of the Trinity states. Instead the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Spirit is fully God. The confusion comes with mistakes in category. Most Muslims I've conversed with hold that "God is one, so God cannot be three" and that would be correct in the categorization of His "Being". But Christians hold that He is one in "Being" and three in "Person". So in other words, there is one "What" (in being, nature, and essence) and 3 "Who's" (Persons/ Trinity).

Trinitarianism is not the opposite of monotheism, that would be polytheism- and the Trinity is not polytheism. There is only one true God but the Bible doesn't limit Him to just one divine Person. Unlike us humans, God isn't limited in His Personage. Stating that Jesus prays to the Father or the Father sent the Son thus making them separate doesn't disprove the Trinity, it is exactly what the Trinity says!

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Creator (Col. 1:15-17) and if we hold the Bible to be the ultimate authority (which I recognize that Muslims do not) then we don't dismiss Him as a "messenger" but recognize Him as being part of God's revelation of Himself to us.

 

[Stone Cold]

I have no interest in debating with you.

I don't really care what you believe. I made a point about faith. If you want to debate, debate what I've actually said instead of trying to fabricate an argument.

Your point is moot because how can one possibly have or know what faith in an intangible God is when he can't even have faith in man(the tangible vessels he works through)?

 

[lini...]

I have not mentioned the Trinity. I have, however, pointed out that the apotheosis of Jesus (pbuh) rests on ambiguous or insufficient evidence, when it is my belief that a man who was actually God, should have proven such a thing clear enough for all to understand. It is quite clear to me that this man was subservient to his metaphorical "Father," which may correspond with the Nicene Creed, but not with the understand of monotheism.

 

[Chris.B]

I have not mentioned the Trinity. I have, however, pointed out that the apotheosis of Jesus (pbuh) rests on ambiguous or insufficient evidence, when it is my belief that a man who was actually God, should have proven such a thing clear enough for all to understand. It is quite clear to me that this man was subservient to his metaphorical "Father," which may correspond with the Nicene Creed, but not with the understand of monotheism.

Jesus himself said he has been around since Abraham...what would that mean?

 

[lini...]

Jesus himself said he has been around since Abraham...what would that mean?

Jeremiah said God knew him before he was in his mother's womb and made him a prophet. What would that mean? It means the same thing as what Jesus (pbuh) meant. Jesus said that Abraham (pbut) rejoiced when he heard the news of Jesus' coming. And the people wanted to know how he could speak that way. He was trying to tell them that God's knowledge is limitless and he can tell of forthcoming events thousands of years before they happen. We all existed in the knowledge of God before we were actually born.

 

[Chris.B]

Jeremiah said God knew him before he was in his mother's womb and made him a prophet. What would that mean? It means the same thing as what Jesus (pbuh) meant. Jesus said that Abraham (pbut) rejoiced when he heard the news of Jesus' coming. And the people wanted to know how he could speak that way. He was trying to tell them that God's knowledge is limitless and he can tell of forthcoming events thousands of years before they happen. We all existed in the knowledge of God before we were actually born.

lol you have not read the Bible before....When Jesus said before Abraham he was there...I want you to find out what the people almost did to him...and come back again

 

[lini...]

By "the people," you mean his enemies? They tried to stone him to death.
You see, you are so fixated on the death of Jesus (pbuh) that you do not understand his life [with apologies]. You are under the impression that his enemies understood him correctly. However this is not the case. Jesus (pbuh) went to great pains to say and show that he was not God. Yet you and they saw the opposite. You agree with the people who tried to kill him!

Did you notice what Jesus (pbuh) did when they tried to stone him? The same thing he did when they said that he was equating himself with God in John 10. I won't assume that you haven't read the Bible, but I will ask you to "find out...and come back again."

 

[jsmiller]

Jeremiah said God knew him before he was in his mother's womb and made him a prophet. What would that mean? It means the same thing as what Jesus (pbuh) meant. Jesus said that Abraham (pbut) rejoiced when he heard the news of Jesus' coming. And the people wanted to know how he could speak that way. He was trying to tell them that God's knowledge is limitless and he can tell of forthcoming events thousands of years before they happen. We all existed in the knowledge of God before we were actually born.

Bro there's a big difference between God knowing us in His exhaustive knowledge and Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham. To use your reasoning, since God knew you before you were born, could you say, "before Abraham was, I AM"??..

The Bible teaches that the King of Salem, Melchizedek, aka Jesus Christ Himself, blessed Abraham and Abraham tithed to Him. As the writer of Hebrews says, "Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils." (Hebrews 7:4)

There's no doubt that Jesus Himself taught that He is God but because this is in conflict with what Muhammad says, you refute it. Muhammad wasn't the sinless Lamb of God. Muhammad himself had to pray for forgiveness, Jesus did not. Jesus wasn't a mere prophet. What prophet do you know walked on the sea? What prophet do you know cast out demons? What prophet do you know gave sight to the blind? What prophet do you know was raised from the dead and is alive forever more?

Jesus fulfilled all of the types and shadows that pointed to Him as the Savior of the world and there has been/ can be no new revelation since Him (He is the First and the Last). John the Baptist was the last prophet and in a Christian worldview any other prophet after him is a false one.

It ultimately goes deeper than whether Jesus claimed to be God or not, or whether Jesus' words, character, and deeds are exclusive to God- there can be no doubt about that. The question ultimately lies in which of the two books one determines is the ultimate authority; the Bible or the Qur'an. The two do not and cannot exist side by side because the Bible points to Jesus as being the light at the end of the tunnel with His words being the ultimate authority, while the Qur'an states that Muhammad is God's prophet and his words are the ultimate authority.

I'll leave you with this in your response to the claim that Jesus didn't make it clear that He was God:

Jesus said that HE is the light of the world
Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life
Jesus said that HE is the ONLY way to the Father
Jesus said that HE is the Good Shepherd
Jesus said that HE is the resurrection and the life
Jesus said that HE is the Alpha and Omega
Jesus said that HE is the true vine
Jesus said that HE is the Son of God
Jesus said that HE is the Son of Man
Jesus said that HE is the Lord
Jesus said that HE is the Christ
Jesus said that HE could forgive sins
Jesus said that HE fulfilled the law and the prophets
Jesus said that HE sent the prophets
Jesus said that HE has the authority to lay down His life and take it up again
Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to HIM
Jesus said that the angels obeyed HIM
Jesus said that by HIM the kingdom of heaven had come
Jesus accepted worship

These aren't words and deeds of a mere prophet or messenger. Again, you don't have to believe that Jesus is God, but He most certainly believed it.

 

[Chris.B]

Bro there's a big difference between God knowing us in His exhaustive knowledge and Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham. To use your reasoning, since God knew you before you were born, could you say, "before Abraham was, I AM"??..

The Bible teaches that the King of Salem, Melchizedek, aka Jesus Christ Himself, blessed Abraham and Abraham tithed to Him. As the writer of Hebrews says, "Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils." (Hebrews 7:4)

There's no doubt that Jesus Himself taught that He is God but because this is in conflict with what Muhammad says, you refute it. Muhammad wasn't the sinless Lamb of God. Muhammad himself had to pray for forgiveness, Jesus did not. Jesus wasn't a mere prophet. What prophet do you know walked on the sea? What prophet do you know cast out demons? What prophet do you know gave sight to the blind? What prophet do you know was raised from the dead and is alive forever more?

Jesus fulfilled all of the types and shadows that pointed to Him as the Savior of the world and there has been/ can be no new revelation since Him (He is the First and the Last). John the Baptist was the last prophet and in a Christian worldview any other prophet after him is a false one.

It ultimately goes deeper than whether Jesus claimed to be God or not, or whether Jesus' words, character, and deeds are exclusive to God- there can be no doubt about that. The question ultimately lies in which of the two books one determines is the ultimate authority; the Bible or the Qur'an. The two do not and cannot exist side by side because the Bible points to Jesus as being the light at the end of the tunnel with His words being the ultimate authority, while the Qur'an states that Muhammad is God's prophet and his words are the ultimate authority.

I'll leave you with this in your response to the claim that Jesus didn't make it clear that He was God:

Jesus said that HE is the light of the world
Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life
Jesus said that HE is the ONLY way to the Father
Jesus said that HE is the Good Shepherd
Jesus said that HE is the resurrection and the life
Jesus said that HE is the Alpha and Omega
Jesus said that HE is the true vine
Jesus said that HE is the Son of God
Jesus said that HE is the Son of Man
Jesus said that HE is the Lord
Jesus said that HE is the Christ
Jesus said that HE could forgive sins
Jesus said that HE fulfilled the law and the prophets
Jesus said that HE sent the prophets
Jesus said that HE has the authority to lay down His life and take it up again
Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to HIM
Jesus said that the angels obeyed HIM
Jesus said that by HIM the kingdom of heaven had come
Jesus accepted worship

These aren't words and deeds of a mere prophet or messenger. Again, you don't have to believe that Jesus is God, but He most certainly believed it.

 

[lini...]

Yes, I could say that I was in existence in the mind of God before Abraham (pbuh) was on this earth. And it is possible that God told Abraham (pbuh) about a conversation between you and I, though I doubt it. Also the unknown author of Hebrews said that Melchizedek was LIKE Jesus (pbuh). One cannot be similar to someone else and be that same someone. Just as one cannot be SENT by someone else and be that same someone. One cannot be WITH someone else and be that someone. One cannot PRAY TO someone else and be that someone, etc.

Your mentioning of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the Qur'an is irrelevant here. The Qur'an says we aren't to make distinctions between prophets of God. And your list only proves my point that Jesus (pbuh) did not claim to be God. If so, that quote would have made your list.

I wish to simply list and document verses describing aspects of Jesus’ (pbuh) life which show that he is not God. [Notice this is from his biographies, not dreams of what he might say in the future, i.e. Revelations]

-Jesus (pbuh) was in his mother womb (Luke 2:21)
-Jesus (pbuh) was circumcised (Luke 2:21)
-Jesus (pbuh) was hungry (Mark 11:12)
-Jesus (pbuh) was thirsty (John 19:28)
-Jesus (pbuh) wept (Luke 19:41, John 11:35)
-Jesus’ (pbuh) family thought him insane (Mark 3:21)
-Jesus (pbuh) was angered (Mark 3:5)
-Jesus (pbuh) felt fear of men (John 7:1)
-Jesus (pbuh) felt fear of death (Mark 14:36)
-Jesus (pbuh) escaped persecution (John 10:39)
-Jesus (pbuh) was a carpenter (Mark 6:3)
-Jesus (pbuh) could sin (Heb 4:15), It is impossible for God to lie (Heb. 6:18, Num. 23:19)
-Jesus (pbuh) increased in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
-Jesus (pbuh) learned from experience (Heb. 5:8)
-Angels ministered to Jesus (pbuh) (Matt. 4:11)
-Jesus (pbuh) prays to God (Mark 6:12)
-Jesus (pbuh) is confused as to whether his witness is true or false (John 8:14, 5:31)
-Jesus (pbuh) will sit on God’s right hand (Mark 16:19)
-Angel strengthens Jesus (pbuh) (Luke 22:43)
-Jesus (pbuh) is the way to God (John 14:6)
-The Father is greater than Jesus (pbuh) (John14:28)
-Jesus (pbuh) doesn’t know the Day of Judgment (Mark 13:32)
-Jesus’ (pbuh) power is given to him (Matt 28:18)
-Jesus (pbuh) had NO authority to speak on his own, he said what he was told by God to say (John 12:49)
-Jesus (pbuh) says none is good but one that is God (Luke 18:19)
- When Jesus (pbuh) was walking through a crowd, he didn't know who touched him (Mark 5:30/ Luke 8:45)
-Jesus (pbuh) says a mustard seed is the smallest seed on earth (Mark 4:31). This is not true.
-Jesus (pbuh) can’t allow people to sit on with him on the right
side of the Father, only God can (Matt 20:23)
-Jesus (pbuh) weary (John 4:6)
-Jesus (pbuh) was tempted by the devil for 40 days (Luke 4:2),
God cannot be tempted (James 1:13)
-Jesus (pbuh) traveled in secret (John 7:10)
-Jesus (pbuh) rode a donkey (John 12:14)
-Jesus’ (pbuh) words are from the Father (John 8:26)
-Jesus (pbuh) only speak what he was taught by the Father (John 8:28)
-Jesus’ (pbuh) will is to please the Father (John 8:29)
-Jesus (pbuh) was captured (John 18:12)
-Jesus (pbuh) was put on trial (John 18:28)
-He was ridiculed and beaten (John 19:1-3).
-Jesus (pbuh) was spat on (Matt. 26:67)
-Jesus (pbuh) was killed (John 19:30)

Just for a moment, consider that Jesus (pbuh) was God. Just substitute God for Jesus (pbuh) in this list and you will see the absurdity of such a claim. God was born with afterbirth, God suckle from a woman’s breast, God soiled his diaper, God went to school and learned, God got in trouble with his mother, God passed gas and belched, God for 30 years of his life did absolutely nothing to help the world [aside from talking to some learned men as a 12 year old (Luke 2:42-47)]. What was he doing? Finally, God opens his mouth at the age of 30. And God is immediately attacked and God is scared and runs away (Yes Chris B, this is what "God" did when his enemies accused him of blasphemy. "GOD" RAN AWAY!!!)
God never says “I am God.” God was tempted by the devil to rule over EVERYTHING THAT IS ALREADY HIS. I can go on and on. God is a carpenter (I have often seen stickers which say “My boss is a carpenter." I wonder if it read “my God is a carpenter” would they feel any different), God rides donkeys and ultimately God is whipped, spit on and killed. As a child, I was told that God is almighty. No one can harm God and I am positive we all were taught this. However, it seems the story has changed. Now God can be afraid, beaten and killed.

"Forgive them, for they know not what they do"

 

[GMOGMediaTV]

The hierarchy of these man made religions starts with Judaism. They don't even acknowledge the existence of Jesus (Yeshua Ben Yosef) as being the Messiah but, Catholicism, Christianity & Islam does.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

The 'Gospels' are not biographies.​

 

[lini...]

The hierarchy of these man made religions starts with Judaism. They don't even acknowledge the existence of Jesus (Yeshua Ben Yosef) as being the Messiah but, Catholicism, Christianity & Islam does.

This is off topic, but why do you separate Catholicism from Christianity? I know that is done quite often. I just wondered why?

 

[lini...]

The 'Gospels' are not biographies.​

A biography or simply bio is a detailed description or account of a person's life.
An authorized biography is written with the permission, cooperation, and at times, participation of a subject or a subject's heirs.

I would argue that the "Gospels" are biographies, just not "authorized biographies."


Also, Sam Harris is one of my least favorite people, with Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins closely behind. That Sam believes such a thing does not surprise me. I just can't believe he was foolish enough to write it in a book.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

They aren't 'biographies' by any stretch of the imagination. Not even by Greek standards. Those are different forms of 'Christianity'.

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