Religion/Spirituality Theism Discussion (Abrahamic Religions, Religious Philosophy, etc.)

[jsmiller]

I am pretty sure that Jesus (pbuh) did not say that he was God. Also others (in the Bible) performed miracles that Jesus (pbuh) performed. And finally, Christians believe that we all will be resurrected, so I do not believe these things meet the criteria necessary to definitively state that Jesus (pbuh) was God.

If you say that Jesus did not claim to be God then you must not have gone through the Bible..

"Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'" (John 8:58)

"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.'"(John 10:31-33)

“I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!” (Rev.1:17–18)

And there are MANY others..

As for people doing the miracles Jesus did, they were given the power to do so by Jesus. And none of them had power over death (resurrection- prerogative of God alone) thus they're all dead.
And finally the Christians being raised at the end aren't being raised by their own power..

 

[Chris.B]

I am pretty sure that Jesus (pbuh) did not say that he was God. Also others (in the Bible) performed miracles that Jesus (pbuh) performed. And finally, Christians believe that we all will be resurrected, so I do not believe these things meet the criteria necessary to definitively state that Jesus (pbuh) was God.

Jesus Christ has already made it clear before Abraham he was there...read your Bible

 

[jsmiller]

Off topic for me but I'm just wondering how "the Father is in Me and I in Him" = "The Father is Me and I am him"?

How is it off topic bruh? You say that Christians believe in Paul saying Jesus is God but Jesus said He is God.
"The Father in Me and I in Him" = The Trinity. 1 God, 3 eternally distinct Persons

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

How is it off topic bruh? You say that Christians believe in Paul saying Jesus is God but Jesus said He is God.
"The Father in Me and I in Him" = The Trinity. 1 God, 3 eternally distinct Persons

I'm sorry but I don't understand how "the Father is in Me and I am in Him" means "3 eternally distinct people". That simply doesn't mean that. No offense, but we're talking basic reading comprehension. That doesn't mean that at all. Simple and plain. I don't know what else to tell you.

I said it's off topic for me because I'm not here to discuss whether or not Jesus was God or the son of God or both.

My point is simply that your faith isn't in God, it's in
what man has said about God.

The creator exists. Fact. The creator had a son who is also the creator. Well, that's something someone said. If you believe that then that is where your faith lies, with whoever said that.

In the case of Jesus being God, Paul said that. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say he is God and nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of the trinity.

You're free to believe what you please, but just know you're believing in Paul when you say Jesus is God. And I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm simply identifying for you where your faith actually lies.

 

[jsmiller]

I'm sorry but I don't understand how "the Father is in Me and I am in Him" means "3 eternally distinct people".

I said it's off topic for me because I'm not here to discuss whether or not Jesus was God or the son of God or both.

My point is simply that your faith isn't in God, it's in
what man has said about God.

The creator exists. Fact. The creator had a son who is also the creator. Well, that's something someone said. If you believe that then that is where your faith lies, with whoever said that.

In the case of Jesus being God, Paul said that. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say he is God and nowhere in the Bible is there any mention of the trinity.

You're free to believe what you please, but just know you're believing in Paul when you say Jesus is God. And I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm simply identifying for you where your faith actually lies.

I just gave 3 examples above of Jesus explicitly saying He is God. So the Christian faith is in what Jesus says of Himself, not what a man said about Him.
And why do you keep referring to Paul as the one who said that Jesus is God? He wasn't exclusive in doing so, all of the New Testament writers did. John probably the most.

And you're right, the word trinity is nowhere in the Bible but the whole of Scripture attests to there being one God who exist as 3 Persons who are eternally distinct. You'd have to read the Bible to see that.

 

[the cac mamba]

Regardless of religion, you can't deny the creator. To deny the creator is to deny the creation, and thus yourself. How illogical is that?

Consider an automobile. And all the precise engineering that goes into one. Intelligently designed? Indeed. But what do we call that wonderful piece of craftsmanship in 20 years? A piece of junk.

Over a century of tweaking, changing, improving and it's still a piece of junk after just 20 years.

Now consider the universe. Precision? Indeed. Some have estimated billions of years worth.

So your argument is that 100 years of research will net you 0.0000000001 of what a series of recurring random accidents will produce? AND in top of that, said intelligent designer only has the valuable raw materials left by these unintelligent, random, universe coulda exploded any day accidents to work with. Does this make any sense at all?

No, friend, I don't believe in God because of religion. As I said, religion is about belief in men. On the contrary you fall into the same boat only you choose to not call your religion a religion. It's still based on faith in man.

God exists because the universe exists. This can't be denied. But you believe what you believe about God because you have faith in something a human being said.

The creator exists regardless of which human being you put your faith in as it pertains to the issue. Even atheists can't escape this truth.

gotta say breh u take an intelligent approach to this shyt, actually pretty refreshing

but isn't the fact that you call the creator 'god' based on religion? if i follow your posting, then the term god shouldnt even be in your vocabulary

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

I just gave 3 examples above of Jesus explicitly saying He is God. So it's what Jesus says of Himself, not what a man said about Him.
And why do you keep referring to Paul as the one who said that Jesus is God? He wasn't exclusive in doing so, all of the New Testament writers did. John probably the most.

Breh, "The Father is in Me" does NOT mean "the Father is Me". It just doesn't mean that. I'm not gonna argue basic English language with you. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say "I AM God" or the equivalent.

There are, however, many examples of the contrary. "Why call me good? There is none good but God." Here is a clear distinction between the two. Jesus fell on his face and prayed...to...himself?

It doesn't matter who said it, Paul or anybody else. What
it all boils down to is you having faith in something that another person said about God. In this case, someone said God is Jesus and you have faith in whoever said that.

 

[jsmiller]

Again I'll refer you to the 3 examples above..
-----------------------
"Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'" (John 8:58)
"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.'"(John 10:31-33)
“I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!” (Rev.1:17–18)
And there are MANY others..
-----------------------
In context the rich man came up to Him and said "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” and Jesus responded, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God".
Did Jesus reject this title of Good Teacher? Let's use some logic. Jesus is either saying:

1.) Only God is good
2.) I am not good
3.) Thus, I am not God

or he's saying:

1.) Only God is good
2.) I am good
3.) Thus, I am God

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only one who “committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth” (1 Peter 2:22) thus Him being "Good"- the spotless Lamb of God. So the very verse you're trying to use to show Jesus denying His deity is yet another example of Him pointing to it.

And yes, Jesus fell on His knees to pray: To God. Like you said, there's a "clear distinction between the two". Again, the Trinity.. The Father glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, the Son sends the Spirit.

 

[Chris.B]

Breh, "The Father is in Me" does NOT mean "the Father is Me". It just doesn't mean that. I'm not gonna argue basic English language with you. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say "I AM God" or the equivalent.

There are, however, many examples of the contrary. "Why call me good? There is none good but God." Here is a clear distinction between the two. Jesus fell on his face and prayed...to...himself?

It doesn't matter who said it, Paul or anybody else. What
it all boils down to is you having faith in something that another person said about God. In this case, someone said God is Jesus and you have faith in whoever said that.

I need to know where your biases lie.

Are you a Muslim?

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

I need to know where your biases lie.

Are you a Muslim?

I'm being 100% unbiased. Are you even reading what I'm posting or is it you the one being biased?

What is biased about what I've said? Everything I've said has been 100% provable fact.

 

[Spoonz]

The world would be better off without religion ...

 

[Chris.B]

I'm being 100% unbiased. Are you even reading what I'm posting or is it you the one being biased?

What is biased about what I've said? Everything I've said has been 100% provable fact.

answer the damn question....what's your religion?

I will need that information to debate you properly. At least the Atheists around here are 100% straight forward about what they believe.

 

[Jesus Shuttlesworth]

answer the damn question....what's your religion?

I will need that information to debate you properly. At least the Atheists around here are 100% straight forward about what they believe.

I have no interest in debating with you.

I don't really care what you believe. I made a point about faith. If you want to debate, debate what I've actually said instead of trying to fabricate an argument.

 

[lini...]

If you say that Jesus did not claim to be God then you must not have gone through the Bible..

"Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'" (John 8:58)

"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, 'Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?' 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.'"(John 10:31-33)

“I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!” (Rev.1:17–18)

And there are MANY others..

As for people doing the miracles Jesus did, they were given the power to do so by Jesus. And none of them had power over death (resurrection- prerogative of God alone) thus they're all dead.
And finally the Christians being raised at the end aren't being raised by their own power..

It appears that I was correct. Jesus (pbuh) never said that he was God. The 1st quotation that you used is taken out of context. He was not speaking about his identity in this instance. Also, the Greek words for "I Am" (ego eimi) used in the "gospels" are different from the Greek words used for "I Am" (Ho on) of the Septuagint where it is said that God used this as his name. In other words, this "prophecy" only exists in English. Greek speaking people know that Jesus (pbuh) is not equating himself with God.

In your 2nd example, you are quoting the enemies of Jesus (pbuh) to explain what he was saying. In fact, they were guilty of taking his words out of context, as I think you have done in your 1st example. In chapter 10, he was not equating himself with God. Unfortunately, those who rejected Jesus (pbuh), obviously because they misunderstood him, have helped to influence the misunderstanding of modern day Christians.

Now to the (incoherent) dreams of John, in which Jesus (pbuh) claims to be "the First and the Last." This verse is quite ambiguous. I wouldn't want to rest my faith on such a verse.Especially since he is supposed to say that he "was dead" at one part. Also, in Revelation, Jesus (pbuh) says that he has a God.Remember Jesus (pbuh) is supposed to be in his "Glory" where is actually is God, but he continues to say "my God." Therefore this is an incoherent dream or you must be a polytheist.

And finally, Jesus (pbuh) is quoted as saying, "I can of myself do NOTHING!" "All power is given to me." Jesus (pbuh) was just like the other prophets of God (pbut). They were probably mistaken for God by some as well.

 

[jsmiller]

It appears that I was correct. Jesus (pbuh) never said that he was God. The 1st quotation that you used is taken out of context. He was not speaking about his identity in this instance. Also, the Greek words for "I Am" (ego eimi) used in the "gospels" are different from the Greek words used for "I Am" (Ho on) of the Septuagint where it is said that God used this as his name. In other words, this "prophecy" only exists in English. Greek speaking people know that Jesus (pbuh) is not equating himself with God.

In your 2nd example, you are quoting the enemies of Jesus (pbuh) to explain what he was saying. In fact, they were guilty of taking his words out of context, as I think you have done in your 1st example. In chapter 10, he was not equating himself with God. Unfortunately, those who rejected Jesus (pbuh), obviously because they misunderstood him, have helped to influence the misunderstanding of modern day Christians.

Now to the (incoherent) dreams of John, in which Jesus (pbuh) claims to be "the First and the Last." This verse is quite ambiguous. I wouldn't want to rest my faith on such a verse.Especially since he is supposed to say that he "was dead" at one part. Also, in Revelation, Jesus (pbuh) says that he has a God.Remember Jesus (pbuh) is supposed to be in his "Glory" where is actually is God, but he continues to say "my God." Therefore this is an incoherent dream or you must be a polytheist.

And finally, Jesus (pbuh) is quoted as saying, "I can of myself do NOTHING!" "All power is given to me." Jesus (pbuh) was just like the other prophets of God (pbut). They were probably mistaken for God by some as well.

I understand that as a believer in Islam you see this as the unforgivable sin of shirk so no matter what is said you will reject it. All of your refutations are incorrect and standard Islamic refutations of the deity of Christ. Without a proper/ complete reading and understanding of the Bible you will continue to chalk up the glorious words of Revelation as being an incoherent dream, and the belief in the Trinity as polytheism.