The Official Street Fighter 6 thread! We Open world fighting now?!

Khalil's_Black_Excellence

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this is a dumb take. was there any mid tiers at that million dollar tourney lol.

no one is winning a tourney with bad characters. sure if you pick a good char and say this it can be applicable, but in some games a bad mu is BAD mu.

like in melee sheik has 0-dead combos against some characters. you can't "outplay" that against equal skill.
Ehh...Infiltration won SF5 tourneys (or at least one, I can't forget how many) with Juri long before she got any of her good buffs.

And is KaneBlueRiver's squad considered a good squad (geniunely asking cuz I don't follow marvel as hard as you)? He mad that team work and I know they certainly aren't the tier of the comp he faced when he won Evo or got his getback against F. Champ.
 

O.Red

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I wouldn’t go that far but it is funny how when the game came out people were complaining about how broken she was with the medals and now people are realizing she’s mid tier.

Against Ken, Cammy, Juri you will have a hard time. JP & Guile are bad matches up too but I have an easier time dealing with them as opposed to the constant pressure of the other top characters.
Manon is pretty bad:russ: and the medals are the main reason why:dead:

A glaring issue with SF6's character balance is you can tell that Capcom thought of the drive system very early in development, and a lot of the balance is rooted in the fear of characters' strength within the Drive system

Manon is a good example because they gave her this medals system, which is interesting, but then they were so afraid of her being broken they gave her those dogshyt ass normals:dead: this causes a ripple effect to the medals system because at this point nikkas don't respect Manon's normals and can just upback out of her grabs

Another good example is Lily. Wind charged Condor Spire is the best special move in the game, and Capcom clearly built the whole character around that. Lily flies across the screen with this plus ass move, but once she gets in your face what the fukk else is she gonna do:mjlol: and of course you can make something happen if you're good enough but there's no real reason to respect her normals up close

Drive covers so many offensive metas that they're terrified of making certain characters too strong, which I completely understand, but the bias is still there so you have nikkas like Ken and Dee Jay:pachaha:
 

Deafheaven

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Ehh...Infiltration won SF5 tourneys (or at least one, I can't forget how many) with Juri long before she got any of her good buffs.

And is KaneBlueRiver's squad considered a good squad (geniunely asking cuz I don't follow marvel as hard as you)? He mad that team work and I know they certainly aren't the tier of the comp he faced when he won Evo or got his getback against F. Champ.

Game matters a lot. A low tier in umvc3>>>>>>>a low tier in a majority of games. That hulk team is "bad" but also has the tools to rob you a 99 seconds.

System mechanics can alleviate a lot of bad mus depending on the game. In XRD Millia vs slayer is terrible mu but I only lost it to the dude here since he was a fantastic Slayer. I bodied every other one for half a decade. the game has dozens of mechanics that can circumvent bad mus if you can use them well. Now take a game like ST. you aren't winning a bad mu reliably no matter how good you are because the system doesn't allow it. This is also pertaining to similar skill (like a 8 low tier play vs a 7 high tier etc) ofc if you a 9 player you can probs find a way to bop a 6.

A bad mu in Melee is a bad fukking mu because you have to essentially outplay the person to such a margin its not feasible. I do feel 6 will reach a point where the bad characters aren't picked for serious shyt at all. you can already see the chinks in the system mechanics between bad and good chars. The damage is high and the game is volatile so its probs never gonna be as bad as a smash game though
 

O.Red

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this is a dumb take. was there any mid tiers at that million dollar tourney lol.

no one is winning a tourney with bad characters. sure if you pick a good char and say this it can be applicable, but in some games a bad mu is BAD mu.

like in melee sheik has 0-dead combos against some characters. you can't "outplay" that against equal skill.
None of this has anything to do with the subject of the tweet:dahell:


 

Versa

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I wouldn’t go that far but it is funny how when the game came out people were complaining about how broken she was with the medals and now people are realizing she’s mid tier.

Against Ken, Cammy, Juri you will have a hard time. JP & Guile are bad matches up too but I have an easier time dealing with them as opposed to the constant pressure of the other top characters.

Manon having a disadvantageous match against the best characters in the game is a really bad thing. Because they're strong, it means you're going to see them often.

As someone who is good with Manon, I recognized early that she is not someone you can main by herself if you want to have consistent, stable success. She's not helpless, but her win condition is volatile. Some matches, you land your hits and build 4 or 5 medals after 1 round. Other matches, you're at 2 medals and about to lose in 2 straight rounds.

She's definitely one of the worst characters in the game, but she can win because nobody in this is helpless. The system mechanics are very strong, so everybody being able to parry, drive rush, drive impact, etc helps a lot. I'd put her right above Lily and Zangief, and around the same strength as Kimberly. Everyone else is better.

this is a dumb take. was there any mid tiers at that million dollar tourney lol.

no one is winning a tourney with bad characters. sure if you pick a good char and say this it can be applicable, but in some games a bad mu is BAD mu.

like in melee sheik has 0-dead combos against some characters. you can't "outplay" that against equal skill.

Yeah there was. Problem X was playing Lily, Luffy was playing Manon, and Ending Walker was playing Ryu.

I feel these were unwise choices though LOL.
 

Batsute

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Really makes you wonder if in the next version of SF6 if we’re gonna get a second drive gauge aka new grooves instead of going ham on character nerfs/buffs.
 

Deafheaven

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None of this has anything to do with the subject of the tweet:dahell:


???

he said you can't blame your character for losing or being weak. Thats cap. You can argue you're an idiot for not playing a top tier but you can most certainly blame a bad mu for why you lost. I also feel he is speaking from a sf5/6 centric view. in some games a really bad mu is almost fukking impossible.
 

O.Red

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Ehh...Infiltration won SF5 tourneys (or at least one, I can't forget how many) with Juri long before she got any of her good buffs.

And is KaneBlueRiver's squad considered a good squad (geniunely asking cuz I don't follow marvel as hard as you)? He mad that team work and I know they certainly aren't the tier of the comp he faced when he won Evo or got his getback against F. Champ.
Hulk teams are a mind fukk because they're "bad" but that's largely a function of the players hubris

Fighting a Hulk requires you to slow the fukk down and have some respect:russ: If you're stubborn and want to do all your rushdown shyt you're gonna get hit, you're gonna die and you're gonna be mad:mjlol: one of the best examples of this is Jan vs Ray Ray at Evo 2014. Ray didn't wanna stop playing his way and got washed. The second time they faced off Ray adjusted, slowed the fukk down, and won

Hulk matches are usually determined at 99sec mark. If you have Jam session just upback and proceed to not letting that nikka play, or you can listen to your pride and try to contest and watch your team die:mjgrin:
 

O.Red

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???

he said you can't blame your character for losing or being weak. Thats cap. You can argue you're an idiot for not playing a top tier but you can most certainly blame a bad mu for why you lost. I also feel he is speaking from a sf5/6 centric view. in some games a really bad mu is almost fukking impossible.
He didn't say this at all:mjlol:

The point of the tweet was the way nikkas immediately blame outside reasons for why they lost. This hinders improvement
 

Khalil's_Black_Excellence

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Really makes you wonder if in the next version of SF6 if we’re gonna get a second drive gauge aka new grooves instead of going ham on character nerfs/buffs.
I figure they could incorporate an actual "Overdrive" component to the Drive gauge that when activated, you have a timed, unlimited resource of drive. Not sure what the balance would be or the requirements exactly, but they could have it be where once it depletes, you completely lose your drive gauge for an extended amount of time, possibly even for that whole round (or even the whole match, if they really wanna get spicy with it).
 
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O.Red

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Punk one of the best in the world and does this every day:mjgrin:
Punk is also very hard on himself regarding his skills

He gets emotional and cries, typically about online outcomes, but he never hesitates to point to his own issues just as publicly. I mentioned a few pages back how he said he couldn't beat Mena, and he knew why, but he's done the reflection and finally beat him

Most players don't do this. Nikkas will lose, and instead of acknowledging that they didn't respect their opponents defense, or relied too much on a bad strategy, it's automatically ":damn:this character just sucks, this matchup is bad, drive impact is scrubby" that's the point of the tweet
 

DPresidential

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Some additional tips

- If you are genuinely looking to get better and want the best choice to grow with the game while feeling good as you progress, play Ken or Juri. The ease of use/power level ratio is heavily out of whack with both characters in that they get a TON of reward for being played quite simply, but still allow for further growth later on. Juri is so ridiculously overpowered that you don't even need to touch Feng Sui Engine (SA2) to get mileage out of her, but once you do, you'll go even further at the highest levels. Ken has optimal combos, but even the basic stuff hits incredibly hard. They did this on purpose, as Ken is the favorite choice among casuals, and Juri has a huge fan base, so they wanted to make sure that people giving their game a try feel good about themselves as they learn. They also have all the tools you need to teach you important stuff: fireballs for zoning, great anti air options,

Guile is also a good choice if you want to use a charge character. All 3 are powerful and a threat that your opponent has to seriously account for even if they are superior to you, which is a good thing for your growth. Luke is good choice, but his optimal combos require a bit of timing/dexterity with his charged knuckles. Marisa is not a bad choice either, but you have to dedicate a pretty large portion of your mental stack to looking out for jumps at all times, because her anti air game is quite weak to compensate for her unmatched damage output. Honda is easy, but does not teach you good fighting game fundamentals and ultimately becomes much weaker as you go against better people who can parry his headbutt and buttsplash. Juri and Ken are incredible no matter what level you're playing at.

- Speaking of mental stack, get familiar with that term. When going into a fight, keep in mind 3-4 things at all times that you are aware of no matter what and retain that shyt. Common elements are people jumping at you, a command grab if your opponent has one, a fireball if your opponent has one, and popular moves in neutral space that you can look for to whiff punish or drive impact (if they can't be cancelled). An example of the latter is Manon's standing HK(roundhouse) and standing HP(fierce). Both of those moves are incredible, and because of that, Capcom made it so neither can be cancelled into specials. Meaning they are guaranteed drive impacts if you anticipate them and are correct. So that's 2 moves you should keep in your mental stack when fighting her.

When fighting Marisa, her st LP LP or st MP MP into Drive Rush cancel yields a very powerful mix up. She can either do her command grab OR crouching light kick to combo start. So, you should always have in your mental when fighting Marisa that when she's drive rushing in from those moves, your options are to jump to avoid the command grab, or block to avoid crouching light kick.

The most common mental stack in the corner is readjusting your brain to look for the red glow that comes with Drive Impact. That's why it's not always easy to drive impact a competent player in the corner. Another example is this: Remember I said earlier that Manon's st.hk is a great move but Drive Impact-able? So, if I use that move one time..maybe twice, the third time I am slowing it down and my mental stack is looking for a drive impact, because I know a good player is aware of st.hk's weakness. So I think two steps ahead of them, and if they drive impact me, I already got mine ready for that ass :ahh:

The brain can only store but so many things in it at once during a match, so focus on the important things and make sure you are adjusting what is relevant to store by who you are fighting against.

- I said this earlier, but I repeat, PLEASE RESPECT FRAME DATA. Turn that frame data feature on in training mode and get very familiar with it. Understand that frame data is concrete, consistent math and it does not change no matter how frustrated you might be blocking something. Example: If Marisa does a charged gladius at close range and you try to hit her after, you will be stuffed by standing MP MP EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. SO DO NOT PRESS ANYTHING. Another Example: when Lily does wind clad condor spire, she is plus +1 on block. If she presses st.lk, which is 4 frames, anything you press WILL BE BEAT IT OUT, SO DO NOT PRESS ANYTHING UNLESS IT IS AN INVINCIBLE REVERSAL ATTACK. BLOCK. You WILL get hit every single time, and this fact does not change no matter what. Respect the frame data, and then you can cultivate strategy that yields consistent winning habits. "Damn, she's +1 right here and in my face. I don't want to deal with that, so let me Drive Reversal to get her off me." Stuff like that.

- Losing is your fault always: not your opponent, not the character you play, and not the character they use. The latter is especially the case, because if the reason you are losing is their character, why aren't you playing them as well if the point of the game is to win? Can't have your cake and eat it too. If they're that overpowered and braindead and anybody can win with them, YOU do it then. Might find yourself surprised that it's not as easy as it looks no matter what character you play. Take accountability for your defeat and accept that your opponent is trying to beat you just as bad as you're trying to beat them. Nobody is entitled to a win. Even Punk, Mena, or the Birds can get caught slipping.

- The correct way to block JP's level 2 super is to block the first strike high or low(doesn't matter), the 2nd strike high, the 3rd strike low, and the last strike high. JP is an overwhelmingly powerful character even if you know what he can do, but not being aware is pretty much a guaranteed loss, so go practice blocking that in training mode.

- Chun Li does NOT have a throw loop. Anytime Chun Li grabs you and drive rushes after, you can punish her, so keep that in mind. Honda does not have one either. As far as I know, everyone else in the game does.

- Do not let Ryu continue to spam qcb+punch in block strings. That's a free drive impact if you scout it. He can't do anything about it.

- Practice punishing Kimberly's Overdrive teleport. It can be sniped out of the air every single time consistently, so do not let them get away with it. As someone who is actually good with the character, I can tell you now that most Kimberly players have poor fundamentals and rely on gimmicks that aren't actually solid if practiced against. Also practice dealing with her elbow drop (jump, down+medium punch). It's very good, and I've won countless games from people thinking I'm jumping behind them only to land in front of them. Also, Kimberly is particularly susceptible to parry, so keep that option in mind anytime she drive rushes at you to avoid the back+hk/down+mk mix up. They obviously can throw you to counter that, but most will not start with that in mind.

Oh, and Kimberly has the worst defensive options in the game. Until she gets level 3, she is helpless against your attacking her on her wake up(the term for when someone is rising from getting knocke down). Her level 1 super is a fake reversal. If you pressure her with crouching light punch, it will recover BEFORE her Level 1 makes contact with you, giving you a free punish.


- Manon is NEVER PLUS FRAMES ON BLOCK UNLESS SHE USES DRIVE RUSH. Everything she has is negative frames, so be confident in using fast pokes (such as crouching light punch) to take your turn back after you block anything she does.

- Marisa's counter loses to throws and her backdash is weak, so you should be throwing her quite a lot, as she is helpless to it until she gets level 2 super. Also, parry her punches as much as you can, as she shaves a ton of Drive Gauge everytime she makes contact.

- Know that anytime someone is cornered, their chances of jumping are much higher, ESPECIALLY in this game with Drive Impact guaranteeing damage. Adjust your mental stack to look for jumps in the corner even more than before, and don't rush into Drive Impact every time. Use the THREAT of them knowing you have it to punish them as they helplessly try to get out. @Khalil's_Black_Excellence is very good at doing this.


I'll add more later. If anyone has any questions feel free to hit me up. I'm not some elite player, but I'm definitely way above average, so I can probably help.
Definitely screenshotting this

Dap + rep
 

Khalil's_Black_Excellence

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Game matters a lot. A low tier in umvc3>>>>>>>a low tier in a majority of games. That hulk team is "bad" but also has the tools to rob you a 99 seconds.

System mechanics can alleviate a lot of bad mus depending on the game. In XRD Millia vs slayer is terrible mu but I only lost it to the dude here since he was a fantastic Slayer. I bodied every other one for half a decade. the game has dozens of mechanics that can circumvent bad mus if you can use them well. Now take a game like ST. you aren't winning a bad mu reliably no matter how good you are because the system doesn't allow it. This is also pertaining to similar skill (like a 8 low tier play vs a 7 high tier etc) ofc if you a 9 player you can probs find a way to bop a 6.

A bad mu in Melee is a bad fukking mu because you have to essentially outplay the person to such a margin its not feasible. I do feel 6 will reach a point where the bad characters aren't picked for serious shyt at all. you can already see the chinks in the system mechanics between bad and good chars. The damage is high and the game is volatile so its probs never gonna be as bad as a smash game though
By ST, are you talking about Super Turbo? Or Strive, lol? If it's the former, wasn't Snake Eyes dominant forever with Gief and he's not considered anywhere near top tier there. If you were referring to Strive:hubie:
Punk one of the best in the world and does this every day:mjgrin:
Yeah...but you already know how Punk roll tho, lol! Exceptional player for sure, but definitely not the paragon of mindsets to align with on accountability or mental toughness, lol.
 

datnigDASTARDLY

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Some additional tips

- If you are genuinely looking to get better and want the best choice to grow with the game while feeling good as you progress, play Ken or Juri. The ease of use/power level ratio is heavily out of whack with both characters in that they get a TON of reward for being played quite simply, but still allow for further growth later on. Juri is so ridiculously overpowered that you don't even need to touch Feng Sui Engine (SA2) to get mileage out of her, but once you do, you'll go even further at the highest levels. Ken has optimal combos, but even the basic stuff hits incredibly hard. They did this on purpose, as Ken is the favorite choice among casuals, and Juri has a huge fan base, so they wanted to make sure that people giving their game a try feel good about themselves as they learn. They also have all the tools you need to teach you important stuff: fireballs for zoning, great anti air options,

Guile is also a good choice if you want to use a charge character. All 3 are powerful and a threat that your opponent has to seriously account for even if they are superior to you, which is a good thing for your growth. Luke is good choice, but his optimal combos require a bit of timing/dexterity with his charged knuckles. Marisa is not a bad choice either, but you have to dedicate a pretty large portion of your mental stack to looking out for jumps at all times, because her anti air game is quite weak to compensate for her unmatched damage output. Honda is easy, but does not teach you good fighting game fundamentals and ultimately becomes much weaker as you go against better people who can parry his headbutt and buttsplash. Juri and Ken are incredible no matter what level you're playing at.

- Speaking of mental stack, get familiar with that term. When going into a fight, keep in mind 3-4 things at all times that you are aware of no matter what and retain that shyt. Common elements are people jumping at you, a command grab if your opponent has one, a fireball if your opponent has one, and popular moves in neutral space that you can look for to whiff punish or drive impact (if they can't be cancelled). An example of the latter is Manon's standing HK(roundhouse) and standing HP(fierce). Both of those moves are incredible, and because of that, Capcom made it so neither can be cancelled into specials. Meaning they are guaranteed drive impacts if you anticipate them and are correct. So that's 2 moves you should keep in your mental stack when fighting her.

When fighting Marisa, her st LP LP or st MP MP into Drive Rush cancel yields a very powerful mix up. She can either do her command grab OR crouching light kick to combo start. So, you should always have in your mental when fighting Marisa that when she's drive rushing in from those moves, your options are to jump to avoid the command grab, or block to avoid crouching light kick.

The most common mental stack in the corner is readjusting your brain to look for the red glow that comes with Drive Impact. That's why it's not always easy to drive impact a competent player in the corner. Another example is this: Remember I said earlier that Manon's st.hk is a great move but Drive Impact-able? So, if I use that move one time..maybe twice, the third time I am slowing it down and my mental stack is looking for a drive impact, because I know a good player is aware of st.hk's weakness. So I think two steps ahead of them, and if they drive impact me, I already got mine ready for that ass :ahh:

The brain can only store but so many things in it at once during a match, so focus on the important things and make sure you are adjusting what is relevant to store by who you are fighting against.

- I said this earlier, but I repeat, PLEASE RESPECT FRAME DATA. Turn that frame data feature on in training mode and get very familiar with it. Understand that frame data is concrete, consistent math and it does not change no matter how frustrated you might be blocking something. Example: If Marisa does a charged gladius at close range and you try to hit her after, you will be stuffed by standing MP MP EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. SO DO NOT PRESS ANYTHING. Another Example: when Lily does wind clad condor spire, she is plus +1 on block. If she presses st.lk, which is 4 frames, anything you press WILL BE BEAT IT OUT, SO DO NOT PRESS ANYTHING UNLESS IT IS AN INVINCIBLE REVERSAL ATTACK. BLOCK. You WILL get hit every single time, and this fact does not change no matter what. Respect the frame data, and then you can cultivate strategy that yields consistent winning habits. "Damn, she's +1 right here and in my face. I don't want to deal with that, so let me Drive Reversal to get her off me." Stuff like that.

- Losing is your fault always: not your opponent, not the character you play, and not the character they use. The latter is especially the case, because if the reason you are losing is their character, why aren't you playing them as well if the point of the game is to win? Can't have your cake and eat it too. If they're that overpowered and braindead and anybody can win with them, YOU do it then. Might find yourself surprised that it's not as easy as it looks no matter what character you play. Take accountability for your defeat and accept that your opponent is trying to beat you just as bad as you're trying to beat them. Nobody is entitled to a win. Even Punk, Mena, or the Birds can get caught slipping.

- The correct way to block JP's level 2 super is to block the first strike high or low(doesn't matter), the 2nd strike high, the 3rd strike low, and the last strike high. JP is an overwhelmingly powerful character even if you know what he can do, but not being aware is pretty much a guaranteed loss, so go practice blocking that in training mode.

- Chun Li does NOT have a throw loop. Anytime Chun Li grabs you and drive rushes after, you can punish her, so keep that in mind. Honda does not have one either. As far as I know, everyone else in the game does.

- Do not let Ryu continue to spam qcb+punch in block strings. That's a free drive impact if you scout it. He can't do anything about it.

- Practice punishing Kimberly's Overdrive teleport. It can be sniped out of the air every single time consistently, so do not let them get away with it. As someone who is actually good with the character, I can tell you now that most Kimberly players have poor fundamentals and rely on gimmicks that aren't actually solid if practiced against. Also practice dealing with her elbow drop (jump, down+medium punch). It's very good, and I've won countless games from people thinking I'm jumping behind them only to land in front of them. Also, Kimberly is particularly susceptible to parry, so keep that option in mind anytime she drive rushes at you to avoid the back+hk/down+mk mix up. They obviously can throw you to counter that, but most will not start with that in mind.

Oh, and Kimberly has the worst defensive options in the game. Until she gets level 3, she is helpless against your attacking her on her wake up(the term for when someone is rising from getting knocke down). Her level 1 super is a fake reversal. If you pressure her with crouching light punch, it will recover BEFORE her Level 1 makes contact with you, giving you a free punish.


- Manon is NEVER PLUS FRAMES ON BLOCK UNLESS SHE USES DRIVE RUSH. Everything she has is negative frames, so be confident in using fast pokes (such as crouching light punch) to take your turn back after you block anything she does.

- Marisa's counter loses to throws and her backdash is weak, so you should be throwing her quite a lot, as she is helpless to it until she gets level 2 super. Also, parry her punches as much as you can, as she shaves a ton of Drive Gauge everytime she makes contact.

- Know that anytime someone is cornered, their chances of jumping are much higher, ESPECIALLY in this game with Drive Impact guaranteeing damage. Adjust your mental stack to look for jumps in the corner even more than before, and don't rush into Drive Impact every time. Use the THREAT of them knowing you have it to punish them as they helplessly try to get out. @Khalil's_Black_Excellence is very good at doing this.


I'll add more later. If anyone has any questions feel free to hit me up. I'm not some elite player, but I'm definitely way above average, so I can probably help.
What's your thoughts on Jamie :lupe:
 
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