LOST IN THE SAUCE

The Sauce Apostle
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This is this disingenuous thing you do. You make this bold claim:

For example, Biden is going to lose the election over Palestinian backlash. As support you'll say 68% of Americans don't support Israel.
I didn't make that bold claim, for one. I said it could effect his election chances, which I think is weird that you would even try to deny. Especially when you want to point to poll data.

And I know you already know how the electoral college works, so these public sentiment polls don't really mean much. I'm sure Biden will win the popular vote again, but we both know we don't operate on that system, and so lets have enough respect for each other where we don't need to pretend like that's the case.
 

LOST IN THE SAUCE

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We can all agree that Israel is doing too much.
We should all be able to agree Hamas fukked up and Gazans are paying the price.

But any discussion around long term solutions is going to require a lot of y'all to admit some uncomfortable truths you don't seem to be willing tohave and haven't been willing to have in the 10 years this thread has been going on.
Can you spell out exactly what these uncomfortable truths are that we can't admit?
 

LOST IN THE SAUCE

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How about we start with Israel isn’t illegitimate.
I don't think you're going to find any of the usual suspects here to disagree with Israel as legitimate. I have no issue with the existence of Israel as a country. It's already there. It would be equally as barbaric to disintegrate the state and forcefully displace the Israelis from the land.

I think what people find illegitimate is the right for Israel to be a religious ethnostate. I believe in democracy and equal rights for all people, and I don't believe any ethnostate has a right to exist, especially if it means domination over other groups in the area.
Do you support Israel's right to an ethnostate?
 

mobbinfms

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In Both of examples, it ends with the end of Palestinians in Israel And Palestine.
This isn’t true in either scenario. The end of Palestinians would have to include the West Bank.

Look, I’ve given you multiple opportunities to acknowledge that you were wrong in saying that there aren’t degrees of evil, for some reason, you refuse to do it. Now you’re in the silly position of arguing that what Biden is doing now is equivalent to Trump firing nukes at Gaza. Obviously you don’t believe that.


Go find any post where I am devoted to Trump.
In this very thread you are arguing that what Biden is doing now is equivalent to Trump firing nukes at Gaza. That tells me everything in need to know about your real agenda.


Look at what I said and look at this statement. And look at what he @mobbinfms is showing he is fine with. I bolded it so you can see how he don’t fukk with voters who are saying they will make a moral position on who they vote for.

Remember, all I’ve said is we are currently watching Biden support Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaign-—something horrific and supposedly unAmerican. Biden rightfully called Putin out for committing war crimes last year yet is allowing it this year. This is fine for @mobbinfms because Trump would do worse—which I said before but will not allow me to say Biden is fine because he is supporting war crimes.

Shaming voters for taking a moral stance is absolutely horrific, but if that makes you feel good for it.
I’m not fine with it and I’ve said as much in the thread. But I’m not going to support someone even worse. That would be immoral.

Do you believe Trump would be a force for greater good in America and the world? If not, it would be immoral to not vote for Biden if it ends up being that binary choice (which it will) and you live in a swing state where your vote matters.
 

mobbinfms

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There's kind of a lot of receipts.
Do any of them say Biden ordered Israel to kill children? If not, what did you mean by green light? I certainly agree with you that Biden is supporting Israel in spite of the fact that they are committing war crimes.
 

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Btw chastising and shaming would be voters instead of putting that pressure on the candidate to make changes is a losing formula. It didn't work in 2016 and isn't going to work now. Me and you may be holding our noses and voting for Biden, but I'm not going to pass judgement on those who consider knowingly supporting a genocide a red line. It's pretty sick to talk down on people who have a personal connection to the conflict.
I’m not going to sit idly by and say nothing and then act shocked when Trump is elected. I’m going to call out anyone who is supporting Trump.


I wonder if you would call a Palestinian American a Trump supporter to their face after they tell you they don't want to vote for a president who is partially responsible for the murder of their own family.
I absolutely would. I’d ask them if they thought Trump would be better. If they said no, I’d ask them why they are supporting him by sitting out the election and see what they say.
 

mobbinfms

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It's Biden's responsibility to make people want to vote for him and you need to put the blame on him. If people lose the enthusiasm to head to the polls because of decisions he made, then he has to live with those decisions, and so do me and you.
We all have a collective responsibility to keep Trump out of office by voting for Biden. Particularly in swing states where it matters. If some of us fail to fulfill our responsibility, then we all have to live with their failure.
 

LOST IN THE SAUCE

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Do any of them say Biden ordered Israel to kill children? If not, what did you mean by green light? I certainly agree with you that Biden is supporting Israel in spite of the fact that they are committing war crimes.
You're moving the goalpost. You don't actually believe that anyone here accused Biden of ordering children dead. This isn't TLR. Accusing everyone of saying some shyt they didn't say doesn't work here. We can see you being disingenuous. If you want to have a serious discussion, you need to fight the childish urge to act pedantic and create straw men. We're all grown ups here, let's discuss things like grown ups.

And just for the record, green light means allow or approve. It always has. This is how it's commonly used in the mainstream media. There has never been any confusion on this, and it's pathetic to stoop to that as an excuse to avoid acknowledging the mountain of evidence. I'm going to pretend you didn't try to pull that pedantic bullshyt and explain things in clear terms for you, because you do agree that Biden has continued to support Israel's war crimes. When Biden does things like circumvent congress to force through tank shells to Israel, he does this knowing that 70% of the people Israel will kill with them will be women and children. When he rejects his own staff's call to follow the policy on not allowing arms to be provided to human rights violators, he does so knowing that breaking this policy has lead to over 7000 children dying so far. When he approves Israel's raids on hospitals, and then backs their lies in the media to help cover their war crimes, he does so knowing that they are lying, and that it will lead to Gazan children not having a functioning health care system, and those already too injured to move will die, including premature babies on ventilators. When Biden says there will be no red lines, and no conditions allowed on the munitions we are to provide Israel with, he does so knowing that Israel has caused a humanitarian disaster, leaving children to starve, die of thirst, be subject to disease, and that there is no safe place for them to escape the onslaught of bombs being dropped indiscriminately. Biden has more information than any of us, and he knows very well that Gaza is being rendered unlivible. He is not simply standing by, he is forcing these things through, against the appeals of his own staff. When White House staff are resigning and saying he is preventing them from even having a conversation about Israel's human rights violations, I believe them. Do you?

I’m not going to sit idly by and say nothing and then act shocked when Trump is elected. I’m going to call out anyone who is supporting Trump.



I absolutely would. I’d ask them if they thought Trump would be better. If they said no, I’d ask them why they are supporting him by sitting out the election and see what they say.
And yet you are disingenuously labeling anyone who is not supportive of Biden as supporting Trump. You know, like a liar would. Ignoring the bad faith bullshyt of those accusations, it is not a binary choice. It's not Biden or Trump. Biden can change course on his support for Israel. He can meet with the communities who he has been losing support for, and find out how to win back their trust. He could allow primaries, and allow someone the chance to run in his stead. He could step down and elevate Kamala. There is not one single course of action. It's not support Biden or Trump drops a nuke on Gaza. Grow up.
Creating a false dichotomy is pure bad faith. I am begging you to act like an adult.

There's a lot of Palestinian Americans who have lost family in Gaza on Twitter and Instagram where you can prove you are willing to put your name on the line for your bad faith accusations. Let your opinions be tied to your identity without the shield of anonymity and show us that you're not full of shyt.
We all have a collective responsibility to keep Trump out of office by voting for Biden. Particularly in swing states where it matters. If some of us fail to fulfill our responsibility, then we all have to live with their failure.
Tens of millions of people have a responsibility to vote for Biden regardless of his actions, and the presidential candidate, whose job it is to appeal to voters, does not have the responsibility to act in a way that will keep him from losing support? You don't even believe that yourself. You can't expect me to take that as a serious position. By math alone that is an incredibly dumb strategy.
I think it matters a great deal if the alternative to the current president is far worse.
That is not how human nature works. That is not how empathy works. I can guarantee you that if Biden was responsible for the death of your family, you would have a hard time voting for him, and I wouldn't blame you. Very little else matters in the face of tragedy to the traumatized.
 
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