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Another Wolf at No. 3
Pelton: My No. 3 is a player I wasn't particularly high on last season: Zach LaVine. When I went through his numbers for my data dialogue with LaVine during summer league, it became clear that he was merely out of position at point guard. Well, LaVine is still playing the point, but he has become such a devastating scorer that it almost doesn't matter.

Only his teammate Wiggins (21.5) is averaging more points per 36 minutes than LaVine (21.1), and LaVine is the slightly more efficient shooter of the two players.

Ford: I hear you on Jabari. I have all the same concerns. But I'm assuming he gets 100 percent healthy and eventually the Bucks give him more of a role on the perimeter.

I'm also super high on LaVine and have him No. 3 on my list as well. The concern, coming into the draft, was that he was, while a tremendous athlete, very raw. At UCLA, he didn't show much basketball IQ and his production was incredibly uneven.

But with his size, athleticism (witness his winning 2015 dunk contest performance) and skill set, he can be dominant. Seeing him this season, I'm becoming more and more confident that he can hit his ceiling, which is pretty high. His commitment to working on his game -- he's a major gym rat -- contributes to my bullishness about his future.

It would be pretty crazy if the Wolves ended up with two of the three top prospects in the 2014 draft.



Who's No. 4 on your list, Kevin?

Two point guards at No. 4
Pelton: I have Elfrid Payton of the Orlando Magic fourth. I still have concerns about Payton's shooting, which doesn't seem to have improved much this season: He has made two 3-pointers and is below 60 percent from the foul line in December.

However, I think that's survivable for a point guard who brings other quality skills to the table, and Payton has shown promise as a distributor and defender. Point guards also tend to develop later than players at other positions, so Payton's age (22) is something of a positive.

What do you think, Chad?

Ford: I really like Payton. I still really like Marcus Smart, too. But to me, the guy with the most potential at the point guard spot from the 2014 class is Dante Exum.

If we really were conducting a draft, this would be a controversial pick. Exum had a quiet rookie season and then tore the ACL in his left knee in August, putting him in rehab for his entire sophomore season.

But I remain very high on Exum. During his rookie campaign, when he was 19, his offensive game was limited to spot-up shooting, not his forte. In summer league, he looked much more aggressive attacking the basket (before his injury later in the summer).

There are question marks about his missing a key developmental year, lack of a jumper and passivity on the court, but I know the Jazz remain very high on him, and I think he still has All-Star potential down the road.

Given how poor his numbers were as a rookie, I'm pretty sure you're going to disagree here.

Pelton: For all the reasons you mentioned, Exum was probably the hardest player for me to rank. Because of his defense, I do think he was helpful as a rookie in a way his individual numbers don't reflect. However, not only have we not gotten to see his improvement on the court, it's possible his development has been stalled by the injury. So I don't have Exum in my top 10.

The fifth soph
Pelton: Instead, at No. 5, I have the third point guard you mentioned, Smart. Before the season, I probably would have had Smart second after Wiggins. He was an excellent defender for a rookie, and ultimately I think his athleticism is going to convert into offensive results. That hasn't happened yet in part because of injuries.

But Smart's ability to stay healthy playing his frenetic style is something of a long-term concern, and his shot selection remains abysmal. So he drops to the fifth spot on my list.

Ford: Yeah, I was a big Smart fan before the draft and I remain one. He was an elite defender as a rookie and a terrible offensive player. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great passer or shooter. But Smart plays so hard and with so much competitiveness, I think he'll keep working until he's a strong offensive player.

I have Capela at No. 5. He's an interesting case study in not putting too much value on one pre-draft performance. Capela came into the Nike Hoop Summit ranked No. 11 on our Big Board. He struggled in the practices and the game in front of a gaggle of scouts and GMs. By draft night, he had slid to No. 27 on my board, which is based on what I'm hearing from people in the NBA.

Clearly your numbers and the pre-Hoop Summit evaluation of his talents were better gauges of his ability, and even No. 11 now seems too low. Kevin, we should have listened to you!

Whom do you have from 6 to 10, Kevin?

Ranking the rest
Pelton: My next five:

6. Jusuf Nurkic

7. Aaron Gordon

8. Nerlens Noel

9. Nikola Mirotic

10. Jabari Parker

Nurkic was one of last year's most productive rookies at age 20, but I'd like to see how he recovers from offseason patella surgery before putting him in the top five.

Gordon was maybe the toughest exclusion from the top five, because he has been terrific any time he has played this season and is still just 20. His upside might be higher than that of anyone outside the top three.

Noel was easily top five in this category last year, and the way he has played at center, particularly with Ish Smith, suggests his regression this season might primarily be about fit.

Mirotic is the oldest player on the list at 25, and at some point he's going to have to make 3s at a league-average rate so teams keep defending him beyond the arc. But Mirotic is still second in this group behind Capela in both WARP and RPM wins.

Who else do you have, Chad?

Ford: My next five:

6. Marcus Smart

7. Elfrid Payton

8. Nerlens Noel

9. Aaron Gordon

10. Nikola Mirotic

I think we are fairly close to agreement. To me, as I said at the beginning, the gap between 2 and 10 is pretty small.

I could make an argument for Smart, Payton, Noel, Gordon and Mirotic in the top five. Of the group, I agree that Gordon has the most upside, though it's still hard to say exactly what he's going to be. Noel intrigues me as well, especially if the Sixers eventually move Jahlil Okafor.

The 2014 draft class (plus Noel) still has a lot of promise. I didn't include Nurkic, in part because I wonder, given the evolution of the center position, whether he's a great long-term fit. I also passed on Julius Randle, T.J. Warren, Gary Harris and Jordan Clarkson. There's potential depth from this draft.

The missing man: Joel Embiid
Ford: I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Joel Embiid, a guy who likely would've gone No. 1 had he not gotten injured prior to the draft. It's impossible to rank him right now given the fact he is sitting out his second consecutive season because of injury. No one really knows what the future holds for him.

But if he can get healthy, and if his development curve hasn't been irrevocably harmed by his lack of playing time, he still has the physical tools to be a dominant NBA player.

Pelton: Yeah, if anything, this exercise made me feel better about the 76ers' decision to draft Embiid at No. 3 in 2014. I had him much lower than third on my draft board because my research on navicular fractures for big men suggested a high chance of recurrence.

But Embiid was my No. 1 prospect before the injury, and at this point, it doesn't appear Philadelphia passed on any likely stars to draft him.
 
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Ranking the potential Ben Simmons destinations, from best to worst fit

LSU forward Ben Simmons has led our Top 100 since it was first released in July. Both Kevin Pelton and I have detailed why Simmons remains the odds-on favorite to go No. 1 in the June 2016 NBA draft.

His unique combination of size, strength, athleticism and basketball IQ has drawn comparisons to Magic Johnson and LeBron James. While Simmons' lack of a jump shot is somewhat concerning to scouts, nearly every team I spoke with sees him as a potential franchise-changing player.

As of today, every team I've spoken with has Simmons as the No. 1 pick, though some are beginning to include Duke's Brandon Ingram in the conversation. We still have a couple months of college basketball left, and that will be followed by the NBA draft combine and individual workouts, so there's plenty of time for things to change. Remember, Jahlil Okafor was the consensus No. 1 at this point a year ago.

Here's a look at how Simmons would fit on every potential lottery team, ranked in order from best to worst fit.






1. Los Angeles Lakers

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The NBA's most popular team has been heading in the wrong direction in the standings for years. And with Kobe Bryant heading toward retirement this summer, and the Lakers desperately need a star to build around.

The guy who reminds scouts of a young Magic and who has already expressed interest in playing for the Lakers seems like the exact player they need. The appeal goes well beyond the marketing department. Simmons would be a good fit next to D'Angelo Russell. Most teams would kill to have a big guard and a big forward who can handle the ball and pass.

Simmons wouldn't fit as well next to Julius Randle, but Randle could end up being an important trade chip if the Lakers get the LSU phenom.

Also, landing Simmons would mean the Lakers could wait another year or two to give up their protected pick to the 76ers, another win for L.A..

Odds of winning lottery (if the season ended today): 19.9 percent





2. New Orleans Pelicans

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Poor Anthony Davis. He's one of the five best players in the league, but so far, general manager Dell Demps & Co. haven't figured out how to surround him with a supporting cast that propels the team into contention.

Simmons would change all of that, quickly. His passing ability would open up Davis' offensive game. You know Alvin Gentry -- who helped craft the Steve Nash-centric offense in Phoenix and the Stephen Curry-centric offense in Oakland -- can build systems around high-IQ basketball players who know how to pass.

A Davis-Simmons combo on the front line would be one of the scariest in the NBA. Getting the ball out of the hands of Tyreke Evans is an added bonus. And Simmons' being at LSU makes him a bit of a local hero.

Odds of winning lottery: 11.9 percent





3. Boston Celtics (via Nets)

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The Celtics fleeced the Nets into giving them unprotected, first-round draft picks in 2014, 2016 and 2018 and the ability to swap picks in 2017. If Simmons is the byproduct of sending a broken-down Kevin Garnett andPaul Pierce to Brooklyn for a short stay, it may turn out to be the deal of the decade.

Boston has a great collection of young talent, but the Celtics don't have a player you could build a franchise around. Simmons is just that, and he'd be a perfect fit in Brad Stevens' offense.

The Celtics have been searching for a true point guard for a while. With Simmons handling the ball, he should be able to take enormous pressure off Isaiah Thomas, Marcus Smart and Avery Bradley and supercharge an offense that can struggle to score at times. The Celtics, with Simmons, would be scary good next year; they could challenge the Cleveland Cavaliers as the best team in the East.

Odds of winning lottery: 15.6 percent





4. Minnesota Timberwolves

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The Heat had the Big Three of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. Minnesota could create another one -- all of whom are under 22 years old -- by landing a third straight No. 1 pick and putting Simmons alongside Towns and Wiggins.

Simmons' playmaking would duplicate Ricky Rubio's game to a certain extent. But standing 6-10, 240 pounds and filling Minnesota's one big hole at the power forward position, he would be grabbed by the Wolves in a heartbeat. And the coaching staff would figure out how to complement Rubio with Simmons.

In fact, with Simmons on the court, Minnesota could probably get away with playing Zach LaVine at the point and utilize his size and athleticism.

Odds of winning lottery: 6.3 percent





5. Philadelphia 76ers

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On one hand, Simmons is a perfect fit for the 76ers. This is their fourth time in the lottery, and their three previous visits have failed to land them a superstar. Nerlens Noel and Okafor both have major talent. Embiid has superstar potential if he can ever get healthy. Dario Saric is a terrific prospect who, one day, will arrive from Europe.

But the goal remains to acquire a no-doubt superstar, and thanks largely to some bad bounces of ping-pong balls, the 76ers may have come up empty. Simmons could change that.

He immediately would be the most talented player on the team, and if he reaches his ceiling, he's the sort of player the 76ers can finally market around.

However, there's a downside: The Sixers are loaded with frontcourt players, and one of them, Saric, has a skill set similar to Simmons' (albeit without Simmons' athletic abilities).

The truth is a player such as Ingram might actually be the best fit given the team's current personnel, but his lack of strength lengthens his developmental curve. Sixers general manager Sam Hinkie needs a player who can impact the game right now -- and that's Simmons.

Odds of winning lottery: 25 percent + 2.8 percent from Kings





6. Washington Wizards

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The Wizards are a surprise lottery team this season. They have a terrific backcourt combo of John Wall and Bradley Beal (when he's healthy) and a solid big man in the middle. Otto Porter Jr. is slowly rounding into form as the team's small forward, but the Wizards could use a major upgrade at the 4.

Simmons' rebounding and passing ability could easily launch the Wizards back into contention in the East, giving them another elite recruiting tool to lure Kevin Durant back home in 2016 or 2017.

Odds of winning lottery: 0.7 percent





7. Houston Rockets

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The Rockets have star power, but they lack chemistry. A playmaker such as Simmons could dramatically change that.

Simmons is almost unselfish to a fault. For a team loaded with players who want to score, adding a player who is content to set them up would be a godsend.

I've been skeptical about the Rockets' title aspirations for a while. Adding Simmons to the mix would lessen that skepticism greatly. However, the Rockets are currently projected to be a playoff team, and even if they tumble in the second half of the season, the odds of landing Simmons will be small.


8. Phoenix Suns

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The Suns are a mess. They should have begun a major rebuild several years ago, but after inexplicably winning 48 games in the 2013-14 season, they instead tried to become contenders, only to show serious regression.

The Suns traded away a Lakers pick likely to finish in the high lottery for Brandon Knight and have also suffered from not having valuable lottery picks of their own.

Landing Simmons would quickly change the outlook in Phoenix. He would be a perfect fit on a team that has two point guards who don't make a lot of plays for others and a disgruntled power forward. Plugging Simmons in to handle the ball and get open looks for Eric Bledsoe, Knight and Devin Booker would finally put them on the right path to be a serious contender in the West.

Odds of winning lottery: 8.8 percent





9. Indiana Pacers

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The Pacers already have one superstar in Paul George, but could certainly use another if they are going to make the push to be a true contender. Pair Simmons with George at forward and develop promising rookie center Myles Turner, and the Pacers would have one of the best young front lines in the NBA.

The team has really needed a great playmaker for years. George Hill is solid, but Simmons would be an upgrade. Simmons could help the Pacers become serious East contenders in his rookie season.

Alas, the Pacers are currently projected to be a playoff team, and even if they fall short, their chances of landing him will be minuscule.





10. Portland Trail Blazers

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The loss of LaMarcus Aldridge in free agency, along with the trade of Nicolas Batum, pushed the Blazers from playoff team to likely lottery team. While the Blazers have a high-octane backcourt of Damian Lillard and C.J. McCollum, both players are really score-first guards.

Portland desperately could use an upgrade at both forward positions, and Simmons would be a terrific fit, especially at the 3, thanks to two bigs -- Meyers Leonard and Noah Vonleh -- who can stretch the floor. Adding Simmons could push the Blazers right back into the West playoffs.

Odds of winning lottery: 1.0 percent
 
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11. Denver Nuggets

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The Nuggets are hoping they hit the jackpot with Emmanuel Mudiay. Danilo Gallinari looks good after missing major time the past few seasons with injury, and Gary Harris is starting to look like a keeper as well.

But while Kenneth Faried shows a terrific motor, especially on the boards, he's undersized defensively and under-skilled offensively. Simmons would be a major upgrade for the Nuggets in the long term and would allow them to use Faried off the bench or as a trade chip to add more depth.

As much as the Nuggets have struggled the past few seasons, they aren't that far away from becoming a playoff team. Simmons would expedite the process.

Odds of winning lottery: 4.3 percent plus 0.9 percent from Knicks





12. Milwaukee Bucks

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The Bucks already have two terrific young forwards -- Giannis Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker -- on their roster, but neither player is much of a power forward. With Michael Carter-Williams continuing to struggle, adding Simmons as a playmaker might be just what this Bucks team needs.

Having Jason Kidd as his mentor would be an added bonus. It's not a perfect fit, but the Bucks could make it work.

Odds of winning lottery: 1.7 percent





13. Detroit Pistons

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Andre Drummond has turned into a monster at center, and point guard Reggie Jackson is proving his critics wrong after receiving a max deal last summer. But like so many other teams on this list, the Pistons could really use Simmons' combination of passing and athleticism in the frontcourt.

Simmons' inability to stretch the floor could be an issue playing next to Drummond, but his playmaking ability could also lead to a lot more easy buckets for Drummond.

Odds of winning the lottery: 0.5 percent





14. Charlotte Hornets

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The Hornets have been in search of a superstar to build around for a while.

They have a number of nice young players led by Batum. Kemba Walker has been more than solid this season, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist has elite defender potential when he's healthy and Jeremy Lamb and rookie Frank Kaminsky IIIhave both shown promise.

While Simmons wouldn't address the Hornets' biggest needs, he has more talent than anyone on the roster. They'd make him fit.

Odds of winning lottery: 0.6 percent





15. Utah Jazz

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The Jazz could certainly use the help. For all their talent, Simmons would be the most talented player on the roster -- but this team doesn't necessarily need him.

Forwards Gordon Hayward and Derrick Favors are both talented, and the Jazz are still expecting Dante Exum to be their point guard of the future.

Simmons is a luxury I'm sure the Jazz would love to have. But his arrival would probably mean that Favors would be on the trade block.





16. Orlando Magic

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The Magic have gone through the rebuilding process without landing a superstar, but they have a ton of talent at every position and a potentially elite playmaker in Elfrid Payton. What they really need is a big who can stretch the floor and protect the rim. Channing Frye is doing the first half of that, but he's not a long-term solution.

Don't get me wrong, the Magic would love to have Simmons. But as far as team needs go, this is probably the worst fit for Simmons.




Ranking Porzingis, Towns and the top 10 rookies by future potential

Which rookie has the most potential?
Kevin Pelton: Now that they've got two months of NBA experience under their belts, let's rank the crop of 2015 rookies in terms of their potential going forward. The top two spots seem pretty obvious, but there might be some uncertainty about the order.

At No. 1, I'm going to go with the top pick last June: Minnesota Timberwolves center Karl-Anthony Towns. Towns has been everything we expected and more as a rookie. Shaquille O'Neal is the only rookie age 20 or younger as of Feb. 1 to post a better player efficiency rating than Towns has this season (22.4), according to Basketball-Reference.com. He looks like a superstar, and sooner rather than later. Agree?

Ford: Totally agree. Towns was the No. 1 prospect on draft night and he has lived up to the hype. In fact, I think he's surpassed it.

He's a legitimate threat on both ends of the floor. I think we all thought it would take Towns a little longer than several of the other top prospects to dominate in the NBA, especially on the offensive end. As you've pointed out, he's having one of the best rookie seasons in a long, long time. He's got a chance to be the best prospect to come into the NBA since Anthony Davis.

Who's No. 2 on your list? Let me guess, he's the Mayor of New York right now.

Pelton: Not sure about mayor -- have we gotten his position on sugary beverages? No, Kristaps Porzingis is much more popular than that.

A recent Porzingis slump has made it much clearer that Towns is the favorite for rookie of the year and the more promising of the top two players in the 2015 draft, especially since he's three months younger. But Porzingis has a bright future in his own right. As we've discussed, he's producing much more quickly than expected, especially as a rebounder and defender.

Ford: I agree on Porzingis, though I think his recent slump doesn't impact what I see coming from him in the future.

As he gets stronger, I expect he'll continue to improve as a rebounder and defender. And I think he's a much better perimeter player than he has shown so far in New York. Get him with the right coach and I think he blossoms there as well. Both he and Towns, if they hit their ceilings, could be in the MVP conversation in three or four years.

Well, with Towns and Porzingis off the board, things get a lot more interesting. The other high-ceiling rookies have all had significant struggles their rookie seasons and some of the stronger performing rookies don't have particularly high ceilings.

Who's No. 3 on your list, Kevin?

Pelton: Yep, now things get interesting. I'm going with the guy I had No. 2 before the draft: D'Angelo Russell. I find the narrative that Russell is "struggling" fascinating, given that most all-in-one stats suggest he has been better than fellow top-five picks Jahlil Okafor and Mario Hezonja, as well as fellow point guard Emmanuel Mudiay.

As I've pointed out in chats, Russell is having one of the best seasons ever by a 19-year-old guard, based on PER. He's fourth among this group behind Kyrie Irving, Stephon Marbury and Bradley Beal. Mudiay is 10th, according to Basketball Reference.

Ford: Tempting. I agree that the narrative on Russell has been too hard. Factor in the weird situation in L.A. -- with Russell planted in the middle of a season entirely dedicated to Kobe -- and I think he has done well. But I actually feel that after watching both of them play in the NBA, I'd still go with the guy I had No. 3 in my Grade A mock: Emmanuel Mudiay.

I know by certain metrics Mudiay has been awful; his shooting percentage is terrible and turnover rate is enormously high. Still, I think that once he settles down a bit and his decision making improves -- both in shot selection and passing -- he's going to be a terrific power point guard in the NBA.

Russell has a chance to get there as well, but I lean Mudiay. I think his superior physical tools will eventually win out once he gets more experience.




Ranking the rest


Ford: Who's next for you, Kevin?

Pelton: Now I'm throwing my hands up. You phrased it well as a choice between potential and current production. And I'm not sure there's a good compromise.

If anything, the first two months of the season have only exacerbated my concerns about Okafor's ability to anchor a quality NBA defense, while raising some new ones about how he fits offensively and off the court. I think Mudiay will eventually be a productive player, but it could take years. So I'm going to go with the only top-seven pick we haven't mentioned: Willie Cauley-Stein.

I wasn't a fan before the draft because of his poor rebounding and limited offensive production, but Cauley-Stein has been better than expected on the glass (the Sacramento Kings have missed him there since his injury) and shown good touch around the basket. His upside isn't enormous but given Cauley-Stein's defensive ability he's relatively certain to be a useful starter in the league. I'm not sure how many other rookies can say that.

Ford: I agree at this point, it's hard to find someone to really gush about. I think Cauley-Stein is a defensible pick, but I'm looking at a pool of five players and he's not even in that.

Justise Winslow (if he ever figures things out offensively) and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (ditto) have both had a huge impact on the defensive end. I think Nikola Jokic and Hezonja have intriguing offensive upsides. But my fourth choice is Russell.

I have reservations because of his lack of elite athleticism and he hasn't proven to be the shooter many scouts thought he'd be coming out of college. That's the biggest concern. He's a very good player if he shoots 40 percent or better from 3-point range. If he stays at 33 percent, his value goes way down -- and I'm talking myself out of the pick as I write this. Gah!

Pelton: I'm going to go with one of the players you mentioned, Hollis-Jefferson. At this stage in their careers, Hollis-Jefferson and Winslow have fairly similar skill sets. You can certainly favor Winslow based on his age and ability to play power forward, but I prefer Hollis-Jefferson at this point because he has been a better rebounder and is racking up more blocks and steals.

Hollis-Jefferson is rebounding like a power forward and his steal rate this season is the same as Kawhi Leonard's. I'll take that. Can you find a fifth rookie in whom you're confident?

Ford: Before the draft, everyone was talking about Winslow versus Stanley Johnson. Now I think the Winslow versus Hollis-Jefferson debate is the fascinating one, and I'm torn between the two. But for the reasons you mentioned -- Winslow's age and ability to play power forward, and I think his shot is less broken than Hollis-Jefferson's -- I give Winslow the edge.

Over time I think he'll play a bigger and bigger role for the Heat and can even envision him turning into a Kawhi Leonard type with his work ethic. But Hollis-Jefferson was definitely one of the steals of the draft.

I've been expecting you to pull a real sleeper based on the analytics. Who do you have in the rest of your top 10?

Pelton: Here's my list:

6. Justise Winslow

7. Emmanuel Mudiay

8. Jahlil Okafor

9. Myles Turner

10. Frank Kaminsky

Not a real sleeper in the group. One challenge is the difficulty in evaluating pre-draft favorites such as R.J. Hunter and Delon Wright who have barely played on deep teams. I did consider Jokic, but his ability to defend an NBA position is an issue. Devin Booker and Kelly Oubre also got strong consideration.
 
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Ford: Fair enough. Since this ranking is based on potential, I think we are still too early enough in the season to be totally swayed by the numbers.

Here's the rest of my group:

6. Myles Turner

7. Kelly Oubre

8. Mario Hezonja

9. Rondae Hollis-Jefferson

10. Jahlil Okafor

The Okafor ranking is low, but I just worry about everything from the way the game has changed to the culture he has been thrown into. Turner looked promising before he went down with an injury. I think he could be good down the road.

I have two guys on my list that you don't. I think Oubre just oozes potential and all the recent injuries in Washington are giving him a chance to be a really effective two-way player, especially if he keeps shooting the ball that well.

Hezonja hasn't been great yet, but when he's been given minutes, he's proven to be an effective shooter and scorer. I think it's coming. With the league's emphasis on shooting, his skills will be valuable. Cauley-Stein, Jokic and Booker were my next three in.
 
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TrillCauleyStein said:
por favor @Skooby
5-on-5: Will Curry pass Magic as best PG ever?
Click to expand...
5-on-5: Debating the NBA's top point guards of all time



1. Which top-10 point guard is ranked too low?



J.A. Adande, ESPN.com: Isiah Thomas. Even though he was considered an early version of a scoring point guard, he led the league in total assists twice. And he also could claim playoff series victories against Larry Bird, Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson (although Magic missed most of the 1989 Finals with a hamstring injury).

Amin Elhassan, ESPN Insider: Jason Kidd. While he didn't shoot as well as Steve Nash, Chris Paul or Curry, Kidd excelled at almost every other facet of the game, and in his twilight he became a much improved shooter. One of the greatest rebounding guards of all time, an elite defender and an underrated back-to-the-basket player.

Tom Haberstroh, ESPN Insider: Nash. The guy they call "Two-Time" for earning a pair of MVP trophies is a couple of slots higher on my list. He was basically a career member of the 50/40/90 club (with field goal, 3-point and free throw percentages of .490/.428/.904) and was the league's assist leader for five seasons. He revolutionized the sport with unthinkable efficiency and playmaking.

Bradford Doolittle, ESPN Insider: Bob Cousy has got to be top five. He set the template for how we've thought of point guards for 60 years, led the league in assists for eight straight years and helped six Celtics teams to championships. And he did it with panache.

Kevin Pelton, ESPN Insider: Kidd has a strong combination of peak value and incredible longevity. He's second all time in both assists and steals, as well as one of the greatest rebounding point guards ever. He shouldn't have to sneak into the top 10.





2. Which top-10 point guard is ranked too high?


Adande: Curry. This might simply be a matter of time, because he hasn't been around long enough to rack up the accomplishments of the rest of the guys in the top five -- guys who either held the all-time assists record or won multiple championships. Check back later (and see below).

Elhassan: Curry. It pains me to say it, as he's one of my favorite players to watch and he's having an all-time great season, but he just doesn't have the longevity to compete with several of the names ahead of him at this time. Honorable mention: Bob Cousy, whose talents wouldn't time-travel well.

Haberstroh: Frazier. Keenest eye for fashion? No one is, was or will be better than Clyde. But I'd slot Bob Cousy ahead of Frazier, who was never top three in the MVP vote and had half as many All-Star appearances as the Celtic. There is no outrage here on my part, but if I had to choose one switch, that's my pick.

Doolittle: There's no way to answer this without nitpicking the feats of a bona fide Hall of Famer, but Isiah Thomas is overrated here. Great player who won a couple of titles. But though Thomas was the headliner, the Pistons took off when he became more a member of an ensemble that won with balance and defense.

Pelton: Even if we give him full credit for winning another MVP this season, Curry still belongs toward the bottom of the list. He has only been an All-Star twice! Kidd was an All-NBA first team pick five times. He needs to add more to his résumé -- which I fully expect he will.








3. Where will Stephen Curry be ranked at the end of his career?


Adande: He could get to third. He already has won more championships than John Stockton. He won't match the assist numbers but will blow him away on 3-pointers. But the reverence I have for Magic Johnson -- and in turn the reverence he has for Oscar Robertson -- make it hard for me to picture anyone supplanting those two. They controlled entire games, where Curry takes over for scintillating stretches.

Elhassan: If he continues with this elevated level of play for several more years, Curry should end up where he's ranked right now (4th). He probably won't reach Magic's track record of success, Robertson's dominance or Stockton's combination of excellence and longevity, but Curry's first in line for the rest.

Haberstroh: Third. He's not even halfway through his career, so this admittedly feels premature. As crazy as it sounds, he could own a pair of titles and MVPs at age-28 and Robertson only owns one of each. Curry wields an all-time skill set that doesn't age (his handle and 3-point shooting), but a delayed entry to superstardom hurts his all-time stock. For now.

Doolittle: We're a little ahead of ourselves with Curry. He's in only his seventh season! But I'll predict he ends up right where we have him, at No. 4. Maybe he gets past Stockton for No. 3, but that would mean he has remained elite for another eight or nine years. That could happen, but so could lots of other things. I mean, if we were doing these rankings 40 years ago, we would have put Nate Archibald in the top five.

Pelton: Given what I just said, it's hard for Curry to move up the point guard rankings too much. He's likely to jump Stockton and battle Robertson for second on the list behind Magic.







4. Where will Russell Westbrook be ranked at the end of his career?


Adande: Just outside the top 10. Westbrook could end up like Charles Barkley or Bo Jackson, with more indelible memories than lasting achievements -- one of those players whose actions you had to see more than whose numbers you need to look up. Rankings are typically based on statistics, and there's no statistical category for most athletic player at the position.

Elhassan: I don't know if he cracks the top 10 unless he has an epiphany and becomes a much more cerebral player over the second half of his career. He's the most athletic player to ever play the position, and I definitely have him over Cousy. But I struggle to see him surpassing the likes of Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Jason Kidd, et al.

Haberstroh: Top 10. I'd love to put him higher, but his game is so dependent on ruthless athleticism that I can't see a dominant second half of his career, when his wheels start to go flat. He ranks first among point guards in points per 100 possessions through age 27, but he can't be this explosive forever. Right? RIGHT?

Doolittle: He'll end up lower than we have him now. He's a freak of nature and all, but as soon as his athleticism declines, we're looking at years of high-volume, low-efficiency production. I just don't see him as having an extended peak.

Pelton: Maybe eighth or ninth. I don't see Westbrook winning an MVP, and he'd probably need that or a title to jump guys such as Paul and Nash. I wouldn't be stunned if Westbrook ends up peaking early.







5. Which current NBA PGs will make the top 10 eventually?
Not including Curry, Westbrook and Chris Paul.

Adande: At some point we're going to have to account for Tony Parker and his four (at least) championships. In this Golden Era of Point Guards he's the only one of the current crop who has a Finals MVP, yet he's constantly left out of the discussion. Tim Duncan was the foundation of the Spurs, but they often were only as successful as Parker made them.

Elhassan: John Wall? Damian Lillard? Kyrie Irving? Really, I don't think any current player not named Curry, Paul or Westbrook has a legitimate chance. Then again, three current top-10 players (Curry, Nash and Stockton) had slow starts to their respective careers and ended up among the game's greats.

Haberstroh: For me, Irving has the best chance of cracking the top 10, but I still don't think it's likely. Irving's just 23 years old and on his way to becoming one of the best scoring point guards ever. That is, if he can stay healthy. That's a big if. Wall and Lillard enter their primes as some of the best point guards today, but I'd project them in a tier with Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson.

Doolittle: None of them, with the most likely candidates being Irving (who already has injury problems piling up) and Wall. Part of the problem is that with the pick-and-roll taking over as the default NBA play, efficiency and productivity at the point guard position have become the norm.

Pelton: Westbrook is the only one not currently in the top 10 I'd give a good chance of getting there. Irving is probably the next best candidate but that's a long ways off.
 
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954UAlreadyknow said:
5-on-5: Will Harden be top-five all-time SG?
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Jplaya2023 said:
5-on-5: Will Harden be top-five all-time SG?

can someone post this.
Click to expand...
5-on-5: Debating the NBA's top shooting guards of all time

ESPN's All-Time #NBArank continues with the top 10 shooting guards. Our NBA Insiders weigh in on who is too high, too low and who was better at their peak, Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade?







1. Which top-10 shooting guard is ranked too low?



David Thorpe, ESPN.com: I can't have Wade below the top three. Only Jordan and Kobe rank ahead of him overall. He's one of the worst shooters in this group, but he's the best slasher/scorer against modern defenses we have seen, and his incredible motor has enabled him to make hundreds of game-changing plays off the ball.

Amin Elhassan, ESPN Insider: I'm picking someone who should be in the top 10, and I'm going to sound like a basketball hipster, but Manu Ginobili might be the most underrated player of the 21st century. Everything we ask of players -- to sacrifice individual glory over the betterment of the team, to value possessions and be efficient with them, and to play through injury and fatigue -- Ginobili embodied. In a four-year span, he won a Euroleague title (and MVP), two Italian Cups (and two MVPs), an Olympic gold medal, a FIBA World Championship Silver Medal and two NBA titles. The ultimate winner.

Chris Broussard, ESPN.com: I have to be honest -- I don't have a problem with the top 10. You could make the argument that Iverson should be fifth instead of Drexler, but I'm good with Drexler being a slot ahead of A.I. Drexler was a terrific all-around player who rebounded, defended and dished out assists in addition to scoring big.

Bradford Doolittle, ESPN Insider: We could have bumped up Ginobili a few spots. Think of it like this: We have George Gervin ahead of him, but do we really think he had a better career as a Spur than Ginobili has had? A career that, by the way, is still going strong.

Kevin Pelton, ESPN Insider: Reggie Miller. Because of his longevity as a helpful player, I'd probably have Miller a couple of spots higher. But that's more of a quibble than anything else.





2. Which top-10 shooting guard is ranked too high?


Thorpe: Iverson, easily. He'd be top three if the rankings were based on incredible plays, but the guy was more a highlight reel than he was a teammate who did everything he could (without the ball in his hands) to win games. Ray Allen was better, period. So was Reggie Miller. Maybe Manu too.

Elhassan: Reggie Miller. Not to knock his long career -- being that good for that long is an admirable feat in and of itself -- but his peaks were never as high as those of others on the list below him. Miller's heroics, especially in playoff situations, make his career more memorable, though not necessarily more accomplished.

Broussard: I'm fine with Earl "The Pearl'' at No. 10, but it doesn't take much imagination to put Tracy McGrady ahead of Monroe. McGrady gets slighted for never winning a playoff series, but at the height of his powers, he was darn near Kobe's equal, leading the league in scoring twice. And his playoff numbers are so strong that it's hard to blame him for his clubs' postseason futility.

Doolittle: I love The Pearl, but Monroe's real production doesn't warrant a top-10 spot. He was a joy to behold, yet I think we're letting grainy video of his array of circus shots and his role on a legendary Knicks team skew our thinking.

Pelton: Monroe. He doesn't fare well by either advanced stats or awards from his contemporaries. Per the estimates at Basketball Reference, he never topped a 20 PER. And Monroe was an All-Star just four times -- three fewer thanJoe Johnson, despite playing in a far smaller league.








3. Who was better at his peak: Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade?


Thorpe: Neither peaked higher than the other, though Kobe deserves his No. 2 ranking on career impact. Both were accountable on so many levels when they were at their best, making countless tough plays on both sides of the ball and carrying their teams to huge wins night after night.

Elhassan: You can't go wrong with either name, but I'd go with Bryant. He was the better all-round player with fewer flaws. Put another way: Everything Wade could do, Bryant could do just as well, but the opposite is not true.

Broussard:I was very, very, very tempted to say Wade. He was more efficient and gave out more assists at his peak. But Kobe scored 81 points in a game and put up four straight 50-point games and nine straight 40-point nights. That gives him the nod, slightly.

Doolittle: It's close, and the most amazing thing is that both players -- despite playing styles leading to great bodily harm -- had a peak that lasted more than a decade. I'd go with Kobe -- he accomplished more tangible stuff, like an MVP award, with more titles and summit seasons that were among the best ever, by anyone.

Pelton: I give Kobe the edge. Wade's 2005-06 season was the equal of any Bryant campaign, including when he won MVP in 2007-08, but Wade only had a couple of other seasons close to that level. Bryant had multiple.







4. Should Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and Manu Ginobili be in the top 10?


Thorpe: I'd place Manu above Vince Carter and T-Mac (fellow Floridians whom I watched starting in their prep days). What Ginobili accomplished as a teammate was a huge part of the best recent "dynasty" the NBA has seen. Stats alone help him win a "top 10" argument, and they'd be augmented if he insisted he be a starter. By being so agreeable to come off the bench, he has cemented his legacy and his team's.

Elhassan: Ginobili absolutely should (see above). McGrady had one of the most misunderstood careers, unfairly vilified for failing to make it out of the first round until the last season of his career as a Trivial Pursuit answer suiting up for the San Antonio Spurs. Carter also gets a lot of flak for the way he left Toronto, tarnishing what was essentially a stellar career. I'd argue for all three to make it into the top 10, but my will to die on this hill diminishes considerably as I go from Ginobili to McGrady to Carter.

Broussard: The only one I'd argue hard for is McGrady. Vince, the best dunker in league history, is just slightly behind T-Mac in my book because T-Mac had a better all-around game. I love Manu, but definitely not top 10.

Doolittle: Ginobili, yes. The others, no, though McGrady surely would be if not for his injuries. It's hard not to also consider McGrady's lack of postseason success, though I don't weigh that heavily. As for Carter, as good as he was for as long as he was, he never finished higher than 10th in the MVP voting and never made an All-NBA team after leaving Toronto.

Pelton: I would put Ginobili 10th, ahead of Monroe. His important role in multiple deep playoff runs by the Spurs gives him the edge. Carter and McGrady are just outside my top 10.







5. Where will James Harden be ranked at the end of his career?
Thorpe: If he can just learn to be a little more consistent as a "we" guy instead of a "me" guy, he is headed for top-six status. James Harden has the talent, but his penchant for being too concerned about his numbers causes him to bring no energy to too many defensive possessions, or to not move the ball away from the crowd headed his way. The future for him is still unwritten -- he has the power to improve.

Elhassan: Harden is at something of a crossroads, where the things he's great at no longer impress the masses, and the things he struggles at become magnified. Being a bad defensive player is one thing, but being an indifferent one completely sabotages his standing. However, it's funny to see another great scorer in George Gervin, who heard many of the same complaints during his playing career that Harden does, be treated with such reverence. I see Harden dropping out of the top 20 at some point.

Broussard: Harden has to continue what he's doing for about five more years to crack the top 10 unless he somehow begins winning championships. This season's lack of success is definitely dulling his shine. His ball dominance will work against him in the historic rankings.

Doolittle: I see him easily getting into the top 10. Not only is his game floor-based and likely to age well, but his playmaking is strong enough that he could remain a cornerstone player even when he's no longer the top scoring option on his teams. Barring catastrophic injury, "The Beard" will be gray by the time his game slips.

Pelton: That all depends on how much effort he decides to put into defense the rest of the way, but Harden is well on his way to cracking the top five and might surpass Wade for fourth all-time if he wins an MVP.
 
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TrillCauleyStein said:
Boston Celtics' top trade targets, assets
thanks
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Boston Celtics' top trade targets and assets


Boston Celtics
Record: 19-19
10th place in East





Status: Buyers
buysell1.png


The Celtics are perfectly positioned as buyers entering the trade deadline period. Team president Danny Ainge has a deep roster with good chemistry and is not under immediate pressure to swing a deal. But if he wants to pursue a big trade, his cupboard is stocked with talent and multiple future draft picks, including two unprotected firsts from Brooklyn. No team is in a better spot to snag a star if one becomes available.







Potential trade targets



DeMarcus Cousins
If and when the Kings decide to move on from the Cousins era, Boston is a logical destination. Cousins has long been connected to Boston in the rumor mill and would give the Celtics the centerpiece talent that could bring their roster into focus. The Celtics have a strong organizational culture with which to surround Cousins, if Ainge and head coach Brad Stevens want to accept the challenge.

Rudy Gay
The Celtics have the role players and wing defenders that could help balance the Kings' roster. Meanwhile, Gay would give the Celtics a legit No. 2 scorer and the ability to play big on the wing or team Gay with Jae Crowder in a versatile frontcourt.

Hassan Whiteside
Whiteside will be a free agent, and if his financial ambitions are beyond Miami's limits, Boston makes sense as a trade partner. He could shore up the Celtics' defensive rebounding and rim protection deficiencies, keeping the defensive rating elite while giving Stevens the flexibility to play offensive players around him.


Most trade value


1. Marcus Smart
The Celtics still haven't seen enough of Smart to know what he's going to become, but he'd be a building block for a club looking to hit reset.

2. Kelly Olynyk
Olynyk has emerged as a dangerous stretch option at the big-man positions. He holds up well enough on defense that he'd slot perfectly next to an elite, rim-protecting center and, best of all, he's still on his rookie contract.

3. Isaiah Thomas
Thomas could play a Vinnie Johnson-like role on a title contender. Boston depends on his shot creation but long term, you'd like more of a two-way player at his position.

4. Jae Crowder
Never have 3-and-D players been more valuable, and truly impactful producers of that type are really hard to find. Crowder is the prototype for the job.

5. Jonas Jerebko
A bit underutilized in Boston, Jerebko has struggled offensively this season except when it comes to shooting the 3-ball. He also sports a positive defensive RPM and has a team-friendly contract. This is your fallback when you wantRyan Anderson but can't get him.

6. R.J. Hunter
Hunter's playing time as a rookie has been sporadic and we've only gotten glimpses of the perimeter-scoring ability that stirred Boston to nab him in the first round last June. If Boston trades him or frees up more playing time for him, we might see him on the floor later this season.

7. Amir Johnson
Even in today's climate of a rising salary cap, Johnson's $12 million price tag is a bit unwieldy. But if you need a rim runner and shot blocker, he's a good one and the year left on his deal after this season is non-guaranteed.





Most valuable draft pick
Brooklyn's 2016 first-rounder
Boston has benefited in numerous ways from Ainge's 2013 trade that sent Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce to the Nets. But this could be the biggest payoff yet -- a bona fide shot at consensus No. 1 pick Ben Simmons or the almost-equally-coveted Brandon Ingram. Hard to see Ainge using this one as trade bait before the lottery.





Toughest contract to trade


David Lee
Lee's skillset could make him attractive for a contender that has a corresponding piece to send back or gets the help of a third team using cap space to gather draft picks (ahem, Sixers). Lee would boost the Clippers' bench, for example. But fits for a $15.5 million rental player are few and far between.



Player most likely to be traded


Evan Turner
 
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