The Official Debunking Hebrew Israelites Thread

[Everythingg]

That's the thing: you're not relying on what 'God'​

I didnt say I was. I said I was relying on what God Almighty taught me my friend. You can rely on the information you're withholding (and yet still replying) that isnt salvation. I'll rely on the information I have which deals with salvation. ​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I didnt say I was.​

Yeah, you did and still are if you ONLY follow the Pentateuch.​

 

[Everythingg]

Yeah, you did and still are if you ONLY follow the Pentateuch.​

I dont care about your judgement about whats right and wrong. But God Almighty's judgement is the One that matters to me. Well that and whoever God decides will judge humans

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I dont care about your judgement about whats right and wrong.

I am not judging 'right' and 'wrong'. What I can judge is a person's willingness to learn.

Paul and Jesus were both Hebrews and MUCH closer to 'God' than you.

Dismissing what they taught because you think you know 'better' than them is pure hubris.
​

 

[Everythingg]

I am not judging 'right' and 'wrong'. What I can judge is a person's willingness to learn.
​

And YOU keep responding but you're not bringing anything to the table. So whats the point? I mean if Im wrong are you going to correct? No. So whats the point of you continuously saying the same thing you've said since you've entered the thread? In the 2nd-4th post you made in this thread, I asked for clarification. And you havent brought it. As I said once you said "I dont offer salvation" then that was enough for me. I dont need to learn from you. Thats what God Almighty is for.

Paul and Jesus were both Hebrews and MUCH closer to 'God' than you.

I never said I was closer or further away from God Almighty than them. I'll let God decide that and not you. Fair enough?

Dismissing what they taught because you think you know 'better' than them is pure hubris.

More words without any correction ​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

And YOU keep responding but you're not bringing anything to the table.​

You have access to a Bible. Read it. The whole thing. In the proper context without using eisegesis.

No point in serving someone food they believe they're too good to eat .
​

 

[Everythingg]

You have access to a Bible. Read it. The whole thing.
​

Though I did this before you said, its always good to read it over and over. Thanks for the advice...

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Though I did this before you said, its always good to read it over and over

You forgot: without eisegesis and within the proper context.
​

 

[Czar]

Nah not Jamaican and no I wasnt arguing just to argue. That would be you who created this thread and went thru 10 pages of "fruitless" debate with people you've already debated in other threads.

Again, you continue to argue for the sake of arguing.

No disagreement here. Though thats pretty much true about people from ALL walks of life.

Nah. You stopped being neutral when you quoted him TWICE

Cause I've seen you have debates with him in the past, where you've pretty much just argued for the sake of arguing.

Does the sect you're refering to believe in following the commandments of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? If so, they're closer than you're christian brethren that decided that they dont have to because Jesus nailed it to the cross. Everything else that you brought forth since I entered this thread, is not (and I reiterate NOT) pertinent to salvation. AT ALL

The sect I'm referring to believes those commandment are for the "true" Israelites only... who according to them are the descendants of the West African slaves (who they believe weren't continental Africans) Latinos and Native Americans.

For example, neither Lemba nor Ethiopean Jews are acknowledged by them. And God is supposedly going to destroy both groups along with all other Africans.

And as I said, Im not watching a 55 minute video about a doctrine I dont care much for. Whether it is real or not, has NO BEARING on how I live my life. Now if you want to address it yourself, or bring what they said, or even point me to the point in the video where they discuss it, then we can move on. If not, I aint tripping because it has nothing to do with my salvation. I just pointed out that there is merit to it in the bible.

Fair enough. For starters, it should be noted that Elijah never died, since he was taken up in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind.


And John the Baptist himself denied being Elijah.

John 1:19-23

This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” He said, “I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

But Jesus said he was.

As they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft garments? Indeed, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. For this is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

“Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Why?


Luke 1:13-17

13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

Now what was the spirit and power of Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 9-11, 14-15

And it came about when the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

When they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please, let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” He said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

He took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him and struck the waters and said, “Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” And when he also had struck the waters, they were divided here and there; and Elisha crossed over.

Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

So the spirit and power of Elijah was the spirit and power of the Lord.


We see this same thing happen with Moses in Numbers 11:16-17, 25

The Lord therefore said to Moses, “Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you. Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it all alone.

Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

Did Moses die and reincarnate as 70 men? Or was the spirit that was in him placed upon the 70 elders?

Moreover.

Matthew 17:1-13

Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.
9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” 10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Notice the disciples Saw Elijah and didn't confuse him for John the Baptist? (Who had already been beheaded)

The disciples understood that Jesus metaphorically talking about John there.

What they didn't know was he was metaphorically talking about the Holy Spirit as well.

 

[Everythingg]

Again, you continue to argue for the sake of arguing.

Why dont you keep it 100 instead of showing partiality?

Cause I've seen you have debates with him in the past, where you've pretty much just argued for the sake of arguing.

So first it was "Hey Im neutral" now its this? Despite the fact that the guy has been saying the same thing for three pages and stil hasnt brought what exactly I was wrong about? Again keep it 100 instead of being partial

The sect I'm referring to believes those commandment are for the "true" Israelites only... who according to them are the descendants of the West African slaves (who they believe weren't continental Africans) Latinos and Native Americans.

For example, neither Lemba nor Ethiopean Jews are acknowledged by them. And God is supposedly going to destroy both groups along with all other Africans.

And which one of those beliefs are pertinent to their salvation?

Fair enough. For starters, it should be noted that Elijah never died, since he was taken up in a chariot of fire in a whirlwind.

So how did he write a letter after this event?

2 chronicles 21:12
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: "This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: 'You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah.

And John the Baptist himself denied being Elijah.

John 1:19-23



But Jesus said he was.



Why?


Luke 1:13-17




Now what was the spirit and power of Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 9-11, 14-15






So the spirit and power of Elijah was the spirit and power of the Lord.


We see this same thing happen with Moses in Numbers 11:16-17, 25




Did Moses die and reincarnate as 70 men? Or was the spirit that was in him placed upon the 70 elders?

Moreover.

Matthew 17:1-13

Malachi didnt say "in the spirit of Elijah" like it could have. It didnt say "the spirit" as it did when you correctly brought up Elijah/Elisha and Moses and the 70 elders and Moses and Joshua. It simply stated that God would send ELIJAH.

Thats why in Matthew 17 it said:

10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

This was a prophecy. And that prophecy is in Malachi 4:5 WHICH DOES NOT say "in the spirit and power" of Elijah. So my question for you did Elisha start being called Elijah after receiving the same spirit? Or the elders start being called Moses after receiving the same spirit? No. And yet Jesus is calling John the Baptist "Elijah" because.....?

Notice the disciples Saw Elijah and didn't confuse him for John the Baptist? (Who had already been beheaded)

The disciples understood that Jesus metaphorically talking about John there.

What they didn't know was he was metaphorically talking about the Holy Spirit as well.

Thats irrelevant with what we're discussing as these books were tailored for a purpose. What I mean is, we're discussing Malachi 4:5 and Jesus believing that this was John the Baptist. But Malachi 4:5 doesnt say the "spirit" and "power" of Elijah. So the prophecy was not meant to include these words like the author of Luke (that quoted Malach)added into it.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

^^ I TOLD you what you were wrong about and you still don't get it.

That's why I keep repeating it.

Sooner or later, it'll sink in.​

 

[Czar]

Why dont you keep it 100 instead of showing partiality?

So first it was "Hey Im neutral" now its this? Despite the fact that the guy has been saying the same thing for three pages and stil hasnt brought what exactly I was wrong about? Again keep it 100 instead of being partial

Still arguing for the sake or arguing.

And which one of those beliefs are pertinent to their salvation?

Don't pretend you haven't passed by a camp on the street and seen their 12 tribe chart. claiming anyone not listed on it is going into slavery or gonna be destroyed by The Most High, even if they keep his commandments & worship him in spirit and truth.

I feel like you're low key trying to defend their false beliefs.

So how did he write a letter after this event?

2 chronicles 21:12
Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: "This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: 'You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah.

You can't be serious breh. Was Elijah not a prophet? Did not the Lord's prophets predict things 100 to 1,000 of years into the future? Case in point, Isaiah predicting a Gentile king named Cyrus would rise up and liberate Israel 100 years before he actually did?

Malachi didnt say "in the spirit of Elijah" like it could have. It didnt say "the spirit" as it did when you correctly brought up Elijah/Elisha and Moses and the 70 elders and Moses and Joshua. It simply stated that God would send ELIJAH.

Yet we clearly see Elisha asking Elijah for a double portion of his spirit in 2 Kings 2:9... which happened BEFORE Malachi even existed.

That's why in Matthew 17 it said:

10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

You do realize Matthew 17 was in my post and was explained to you?

This was a prophecy. And that prophecy is in Malachi 4:5 WHICH DOES NOT say "in the spirit and power" of Elijah. So my question for you did Elisha start being called Elijah after receiving the same spirit? Or the elders start being called Moses after receiving the same spirit? No. And yet Jesus is calling John the Baptist "Elijah" because.....?

Because he came in the spirit and power of Elijah. Meaning, his ministry would be equivalent to what Elijah's was.

But lemme guess

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

That was talking about reincarnation too lol.

Thats irrelevant with what we're discussing as these books were tailored for a purpose. What I mean is, we're discussing Malachi 4:5 and Jesus believing that this was John the Baptist. But Malachi 4:5 doesnt say the "spirit" and "power" of Elijah. So the prophecy was not meant to include these words like the author of Luke (that quoted Malach)added into it.

So you're back to deflecting things you disagree with in favor of a conspiracy theories, lol.

Well then, let's apply that same logic to Genesis 15:15. God told Abraham his descendants would be strangers and servants in a foreign land for 400 years. Yet according to Exodus 12:40 Israel was in Egypt 430 years. One can also point out that neither book names it's authors either.


You see how dumb that sorta reasoning is? Stop doing it.

 

[Czar]

^^ I TOLD you what you were wrong about and you still don't get it.

That's why I keep repeating it.

Sooner or later, it'll sink in.​

I'm not even gonna take sides in what y'all are arguing about... but dude has been obnoxiously hard headed in our back and forth.

I've never met someone who'll argue the most ridiculous points possible just to avoid looking bad like him.

"So and so quoted proverbs 7 and missed a comma, so I can't accept what they say" .

 

[Everythingg]

Still arguing for the sake or arguing.

Nope. You're still being partial. See, ol guy can go 4 pages repeating Im wrong without ever explaining anything. You read this, and you're still claiming that Im the stubborn one. Yea keep it 100 my friend. Didnt your guy say to judge with righteous judgement?

Don't pretend you haven't passed by a camp on the street and seen their 12 tribe chart. claiming anyone not listed on it is going into slavery or gonna be destroyed by The Most High, even if they keep his commandments & worship him in spirit and truth.

I feel like you're low key trying to defend their false beliefs.

No Im not. Im just saying them holding those beliefs are not as detrimental as christians holding beliefs that someone died for their sins so they dont have to follow the commandments

You can't be serious breh. Was Elijah not a prophet? Did not the Lord's prophets predict things 100 to 1,000 of years into the future? Case in point, Isaiah predicting a Gentile king named Cyrus would rise up and liberate Israel 100 years before he actually did?

Thats a guess my friend. Especially if you believe friend that says no one ascended to heaven except the son of man that descended to heaven. Do you believe this?

Yet we clearly see Elisha asking Elijah for a double portion of his spirit in 2 Kings 2:9... which happened BEFORE Malachi even existed.




You do realize Matthew 17 was in my post and was explained to you?






Because he came in the spirit and power of Elijah. Meaning, his ministry would be equivalent to what Elijah's was.

Yes. And Im telling you that Elisha was NEVER called Elijah. The elders were NEVER called Moses. Joshua was NEVER called Moses. This is despite friend calling John the Baptist "Elijah". AFTER Malachi prophecies that Elijah (not one with the same spirit and power of Elijah) would be sent.

Not mention, this whole time I've been saying that reincarnation has MERIT. To pretend as if what Im saying has no merit is being dishonest. Because

1. Jesus 9:2 the disciples ask a dumb question UNLESS they believed the man had a past life. Because a man born blind cannot have sinned to be born blind unless he had a past life.

2. Malachi 4:5 says ELIJAH would be sent. Not the spirit of Elijah. And for you to pretend as if this FACT has no merit, is again, being dishonest. So yea keep throwing your partial, biased judgements around. We'll just pretend that Jesus didnt say to judge RIGHTEOUSLY.

But lemme guess




That was talking about reincarnation too lol.

You said it not me

So you're back to deflecting things you disagree with in favor of a conspiracy theories, lol.

What Im saying is that the prophecy (Malachi 4:5) didnt say what Luke did. Thats clear as day.

Well then, let's apply that same logic to Genesis 15:15. God told Abraham his descendants would be strangers and servants in a foreign land for 400 years. Yet according to Exodus 12:40 Israel was in Egypt 430 years. One can also point out that neither book names it's authors either.


You see how dumb that sorta reasoning is? Stop doing it.

No I dont. Because it said in Genesis it says they will be enslaved/afflicted in the land for 400 years. Exodus 12:40 says they were there 430 years which could also be correct as they were there for some TIME before they were enslaved (Exodus 1:7-11). Nice try though lol

 

[Everythingg]

I'm not even gonna take sides in what y'all are arguing about... but dude has been obnoxiously hard headed in our back and forth.

Stop pretending like you've just been reading our convo and havent read what he's been saying lol

I've never met someone who'll argue the most ridiculous points possible just to avoid looking bad like him.



"So and so quoted proverbs 7 and missed a comma, so I can't accept what they say" .

Except none of my points have been that loose. Im standing on rock my friend. What you standing on?