Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

[Grifter]

the Superboy being shown is the clone of Supe's and Lois' future son. So "a" Superboy can die.

 

[R=G]

Lobdell was decent on Uncanny X Men...not sure how he is today.

 

[JMurder]

Logical split? The split didn't make any sense. Wolverine fought alongside kids all the time. Jubilee? Kitty Pryde? All of a sudden he's all self-righteous because Cyke says they're close to being extinct and the teens on Utopia need to fight? It seems somebody just came up with the idea of a Cyke/Wolvie X-Men split, and they had to come up with a reason for it to happen, but the reason they came up with made no sense.

The whole thing sucked. The Hellfire babysitters club were probably the worst X-villains I've ever seen.

AVX wasn't bad to me. It was just meh. It didn't live up to expectations.

"fighting with kids" was not the reason. Wolverine fought with his students in W&XM but he doesn't find that hypocritical. He was begging Scott not to use untrained children like soldiers because they'll be unnecessarily putting them in a kill or be killed situation that they don't need to be in. It's a point that is reiterated in Battle of the Atom when he points out how green Scott's new X-Men are. Him and Jubilee/Kitty Pryde being put in situations that require them to fight is a close but completely different situation than Scott ordering Idie to kill other children (and subsequently solidifying her own beliefs that mutants are demon monsters).

there was nothing logical about that split. scott should be striving for peace while wolverine is the one who should be trying keep mutants from being abused by humans (considering he was a lab rat for what 20 years? )

Scott should be striving for peace? That would be completely ignoring nearly 10 years of character evolution in both Logan and (especially) Scott.

it would have made more sense if it was anybody but wolverine, the school's combat instructor and resident anti-hero who has no qualms getting his hands bloody, fighting with scott over leadership. someone like storm, beast, or kitty but wolverine




cyclops stance i can understand. he was pretty muched groomed to become a leader. imo it makes sense that scott, given his personal history and history with xavier, would become something different from what xavier wanted and expected.

Dude....leadership had nothing to do with Schism. Logan was the main guy who vocalized his opposition to Scott's decision-making so it was basically a "well if this is how you gonna run shyt, I'm gonna go and make my own X-Men." In the entirety of W&XM it shows how opposed to being the leader Logan actually is (he is VERY limited in decision-making while Kitty is pretty much the actual headmaster)

 

[JMurder]

It's funny how y'all forget Logan started to get angry that X-23 was in X-Force until she explained that Scott didn't ask her, but the other way around. If Wolvy had his way, X-23 (a trained and accomplished killer already) would've been in the X-Mansion studying how to be a normal girl instead of killing for mutantkind like him.

And note: there IS a hypocrisy in Logan, and it's one he's already aware of (Scott brings it up in Battle of the Atom also)...but it's only after years of him becoming softer and tormented by death and killing

 

[Mr. Negative]

No one read justice league of America ??? The heroes are all trapped in mental prisons poor superman . I liked rouges rebellion captain cold and the crew living by a code it's all about the score and fukk world domination . Captain cold my nicca

gotta reread through JLA...

And yeah, I liked Rogues Rebellion in spite of myself. I was a mark for the old Rogues. Especially Cold.

Just the allure of a grizzled old man with a cold ray gun holding his own with the heavyweights through sheer badassery and being the third best leader in DC, I guess.

This... new iteration of the Rogues is just gonna take some getting used to.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

It's funny how y'all forget Logan started to get angry that X-23 was in X-Force until she explained that Scott didn't ask her, but the other way around. If Wolvy had his way, X-23 (a trained and accomplished killer already) would've been in the X-Mansion studying how to be a normal girl instead of killing for mutantkind like him.

Nobody is forgetting that, but what you're ignoring is that Wolverine's objection to her being on THAT team had less to do with her being a kid and more to do with her being a person like him who was used as a tool by a shadowy organization.

Even if she wasn't part of X-Force and was just a student at Xavier's she'd STILL constantly be in combat, she just wouldn't be on an assassination team. X-Force was drastically different from standard X-teams. Wolverine never gave a fukk about kids being in combat till Schism. Scott wasn't sending students out into the field just for shyts and giggles, they'd be under major assault and he'd lead them in defending themselves.

 

[JMurder]

Nobody is forgetting that, but what you're ignoring is that Wolverine's objection to her being on THAT team had less to do with her being a kid and more to do with her being a person like him who was used as a tool by a shadowy organization.

Even if she wasn't part of X-Force and was just a student at Xavier's she'd STILL constantly be in combat, she just wouldn't be on an assassination team. X-Force was drastically different from standard X-teams. Wolverine never gave a fukk about kids being in combat till Schism. Scott wasn't sending students out into the field just for shyts and giggles, they'd be under major assault and he'd lead them in defending themselves.

The major turning point in Schism was

Meanwhile Logan was trying to prevent:

Instead of trying to get Idie out and doing the classic superhero thing and trying to get Wolverine to save them all, he made a hard call. I don't think it's out of character for ANY of the X-Men including Logan to see why this is a problem

 

[Mic-Nificent]

The major turning point in Schism was

Meanwhile Logan was trying to prevent:

Instead of trying to get Idie out and doing the classic superhero thing and trying to get Wolverine to save them all, he made a hard call. I don't think it's out of character for ANY of the X-Men including Logan to see why this is a problem

And that shyt still reads as fukking stupid. Wolverine DIDN'T make it in time, if I recall he was on the other side of the city. That's what many of us mean when we say it was shoddy writing. If they wanted to go that route they should have done it in a more sensible manner. Don't put them in situations where one party is CLEARLY right and then try and make it into some simple ideological divide.

*edit*

and keep in mind everything that happened post M-Day with the kids. They were in similar situations and did similar things and Wolverine not only didn't care but he praised them. Wolverine was the one who decided to make Armor a full fledge X-man.

 

[JMurder]

And that shyt still reads as fukking stupid. Wolverine DIDN'T make it in time, if I recall he was on the other side of the city. That's what many of us mean when we say it was shoddy writing. If they wanted to go that route they should have done it in a more sensible manner. Don't put them in situations where one party is CLEARLY right and then try and make it into some simple ideological divide.

I agree with that, but at least in Schism one side is forced to make bad decision to cause the divide...in AVX one side is clearly right the entire time, is proven right in the end, but everyone acts opposite of that. Could Schism have been written better? Absolutely, but I don't feel that it was all so far-fetched considering Idie was specifically the one young mutant you DON'T want to make that choice. There were hints dropped long before Schism that she was not particularly proud of being a mutant, and had a lot of self hating. Add on murder to that and you have a completely different group of X-Men than existed before M-Day.

Note, I'm not saying Scott was wrong...I believe both sides were right (and I think that's why they made it so that Wolverine seemed to be overreacting). If you have a situation where cyke has options, you're pretty much making him the villain which was not the goal. The only thing that (imo) makes the story a good one is Idie who unfortunately in the coli is the mutant who is almost NEVER spoken of in regards to Schism despite her being the most important character. You have no Idie, Wolverine's whole argument falls apart because she is tormented by her own actions in the Schism. Remember, Scott never told her to try and disable them...he just says "do what you think you have to do" which leads to her killing these people. THAT is the unacceptable line for Logan. And I think that it's a fair enough line to separate the X-Men

 

[23Barrettcity]

I agree with that, but at least in Schism one side is forced to make bad decision to cause the divide...in AVX one side is clearly right the entire time, is proven right in the end, but everyone acts opposite of that. Could Schism have been written better? Absolutely, but I don't feel that it was all so far-fetched considering Idie was specifically the one young mutant you DON'T want to make that choice. There were hints dropped long before Schism that she was not particularly proud of being a mutant, and had a lot of self hating. Add on murder to that and you have a completely different group of X-Men than existed before M-Day.

Note, I'm not saying Scott was wrong...I believe both sides were right (and I think that's why they made it so that Wolverine seemed to be overreacting). If you have a situation where cyke has options, you're pretty much making him the villain which was not the goal. The only thing that (imo) makes the story a good one is Idie who unfortunately in the coli is the mutant who is almost NEVER spoken of in regards to Schism despite her being the most important character. You have no Idie, Wolverine's whole argument falls apart because she is tormented by her own actions in the Schism. Remember, Scott never told her to try and disable them...he just says "do what you think you have to do" which leads to her killing these people. THAT is the unacceptable line for Logan. And I think that it's a fair enough line to separate the X-Men

Scott didn't make the decision to let idie fight lightly but that's a damn tough situation one where Logan is better off trying to help him,understand after but a bomb in a building and hostages , had to be done . By the way good job sulking off and not being available to help wolvy
Scott gave him the choice in the end and said he'd hold a vote and if the people didn't want to go his way he'd step down . Logan decided to take his ball and go . Schism was way better executed than a vs x which didn't try to show both sides fairly to me I mean In that story due to cap not attempting to approach cyke like a fellow leader and listening to Logan he came at the xmen wrong .
I hope they get over this rift at some point I liked it when Logan is Scott's right hand man they had some great dynamics

 

[Bud Bundy]

"fighting with kids" was not the reason. Wolverine fought with his students in W&XM but he doesn't find that hypocritical. He was begging Scott not to use untrained children like soldiers because they'll be unnecessarily putting them in a kill or be killed situation that they don't need to be in. It's a point that is reiterated in Battle of the Atom when he points out how green Scott's new X-Men are. Him and Jubilee/Kitty Pryde being put in situations that require them to fight is a close but completely different situation than Scott ordering Idie to kill other children (and subsequently solidifying her own beliefs that mutants are demon monsters).

Scott should be striving for peace? That would be completely ignoring nearly 10 years of character evolution in both Logan and (especially) Scott.

Dude....leadership had nothing to do with Schism. Logan was the main guy who vocalized his opposition to Scott's decision-making so it was basically a "well if this is how you gonna run shyt, I'm gonna go and make my own X-Men." In the entirety of W&XM it shows how opposed to being the leader Logan actually is (he is VERY limited in decision-making while Kitty is pretty much the actual headmaster)

he was raised by and admired prof x. Scott going the magneto path is weird.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

he was raised by and admired prof x. Scott going the magneto path is weird.

And the thing is he's not going the Magneto Path at all. Magneto was all about Mutant Supremacy and outright exterminating the human race. Scott is just saying he's not going to tolerate anybody killing mutants and he'll fukk you up if you try.

*edit*

He'd like peaceful co-existence, but he's not gonna stand by and watch mutants be slaughtered while hoping Human's see the light.

 

[OmegaK2099]

Some of those villains month comics are disturbing/unsettling I just read the ventriloquist one

 

[TNC]

he was raised by and admired prof x. Scott going the magneto path is weird.

Quiet as kept, Cyclops is actually a very pragmatic character/person. Cyclops is a hero because he was raised to be one, if he was raised to be a villain, despite him always being an honorable person, he would have become a villain. Age of Apocalypse Cyclops more or less proved this theory to be correct.

Wolverine on the otherhand is a very idealistic character, and he's the last person you'd think to be one, but its true. Wolverine has had LITERALLY the most miserable sack of shyt life of any character in comics, bar none. He's literally been abused, mentally and physically controlled, hunted down and corrupted his whole life. Had just one of the things Wolverine has had to endure happened to another character, they'd be a villain by now, but not Logan. Despite everything he's endured he STILL tries to be a hero and a good person (despite not really knowing an effective way to do it). He feels that he is sort of beyond redemption which is why he doesn't mind being "the fall guy" for his friends because people are always going to look at him as a killer and murderer no matter how many heroic things he does.


As this relates to Schism, part of the reason Wolverine took it so personally is that he needed/expected Cyclops to remain the responsible one once shyt got real for the X-Men but he saw the descent Cyclops was on and that he was unapologetic about it. It reached a point that they were making each other worse and worse and Cyclops was gonna continue their descent if he didn't stop it. That's why Wolverine kept X-Force around after Cyclops "disbanded" the team. Wolverine understands the underworld and knows that you just don't kill a group and its over, you now are part of that world forever, which is why he had such an issue with getting these young and inexperienced kids involved with that.

 

[23Barrettcity]

Quiet as kept, Cyclops is actually a very pragmatic character/person. Cyclops is a hero because he was raised to be one, if he was raised to be a villain, despite him always being an honorable person, he would have become a villain. Age of Apocalypse Cyclops more or less proved this theory to be correct.

Wolverine on the otherhand is a very idealistic character, and he's the last person you'd think to be one, but its true. Wolverine has had LITERALLY the most miserable sack of shyt life of any character in comics, bar none. He's literally been abused, mentally and physically controlled, hunted down and corrupted his whole life. Had just one of the things Wolverine has had to endure happened to another character, they'd be a villain by now, but not Logan. Despite everything he's endured he STILL tries to be a hero and a good person (despite not really knowing an effective way to do it). He feels that he is sort of beyond redemption which is why he doesn't mind being "the fall guy" for his friends because people are always going to look at him as a killer and murderer no matter how many heroic things he

and that he was unapologetic about it. It reached a point that they were making each other worse and worse and Cyclops was gonna continue their descent if he didn't stop it. That's why Wolverine kept X-Force around after Cyclops "disbanded" the team. Wolverine understands the underworld and knows that you just don't kill a group and its over, you now are part of that world forever, which is why he had such an issue with getting these young and inexperienced kids involved with that.

What descent ? The sentinels and the hellfire club were running a muck . Wolverine went too far because the kids have a right to fight for their homes and safety if they want ! They aren't babies and as mutants especially . If he thought Scott was so wrong then he gave him the opportunity to take it too a vote where if he won he could help shape all the remaining mutants ( at the time;) destiny . He chickened out by half assing it since him and Scott both have valid view points that are better working together for mutant kind