Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

[Mic-Nificent]

yeah I did but i also took in his longevity. If the books did not sell then retailers would not order so much of them.

Nobody is arguing that his books don't sell. Not sure why you keep bringing that up when nobody is arguing that point.

As for longevity you're acting like guys don't get to stick around on books despite low sales or that guys don't get regular work despite their shyt being critically panned AND not selling very well.

The reverse is true also, we've seen great titles with great creative teams get canned despite them selling decently.

My point is cronyism and idiocy runs rampant in when it comes to comic book publishers and editors.

Also before avengers Amazing Spiderman was marvel Flagship comic. (you could make the case for uncanny x-men but they didn't really become insanely popular until the late 80's)

Nah, Man, during the late 80's and throughout the 90's and into the early 2000's the X-Men were Marvel's flagship title hands down.

The X-men sold more comics, had a higher public awareness, had the most popular character of the time (Wolverine), and most of the events of the Marvel Universe revolved around them.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

I just see quality as a matter of taste really. I personally think he did a good job considering ever since he was on that series he had to deal with the next marvel big event and could barely tell his own avenges stories. I am not reading xmen right now so i can not comment on what he is doing over there. But i do feel your pain when an writer just disregards continuity. (or just makes it up in the case of spiderman)

Sometimes it's more than that. Just from a pure writing standpoint some of things Bendis did were just flawed.

Why do characters sound completely different than what was established over two decades?

Why do characters powers suddenly stop working in a way that was previous established?

Why was that "Shocking conclusion" never followed up on?

Why is this character saying things that completely contradicts something they said just an issue ago?


As for him having to deal with events, Bendis was pretty much allowed to do whatever he wanted on New Avengers. He regularly throws other writers work into the bushes just to tell his story. The ONLY time Bendis had to even deal with another writers big event was during Civil War.

 

[Bud Bundy]

Nobody is arguing that his books don't sell. Not sure why you keep bringing that up when nobody is arguing that point.

As for longevity you're acting like guys don't get to stick around on books despite low sales or that guys don't get regular work despite their shyt being critically panned AND not selling very well.

The reverse is true also, we've seen great titles with great creative teams get canned despite them selling decently.

My point is cronyism and idiocy runs rampant in when it comes to comic book publishers and editors.



Nah, Man, during the late 80's and throughout the 90's and into the early 2000's the X-Men were Marvel's flagship title hands down.

The X-men sold more comics, had a higher public awareness, had the most popular character of the time (Wolverine), and most of the events of the Marvel Universe revolved around them.

I keep bringing up sales because that is only indicator that book is not as bad as people make it out to be. Other posters (not you) keep saying that avengers are shyt and Bendis did a terrible job on it and it was the worst thing ever. That is only way i can show that not everyone thinks Bendis run on avengers was terrible. And I am not going to lie I am impressed that marvel brought Avengers to the top considering How big the xmen were.

Also what do you mean by flagship. Because when you bring up Flagship I was thinking the face of the company and that has always been spiderman (until the 90's where you could make the case for the x-men)

Also i can not think of one critically panned writer still working but then again i do not read comic book reviews.

 

[Bud Bundy]

Sometimes it's more than that. Just from a pure writing standpoint some of things Bendis did were just flawed.

Why do characters sound completely different than what was established over two decades?

Why do characters powers suddenly stop working in a way that was previous established?

Why was that "Shocking conclusion" never followed up on?

Why is this character saying things that completely contradicts something they said just an issue ago?


As for him having to deal with events, Bendis was pretty much allowed to do whatever he wanted on New Avengers. He regularly throws other writers work into the bushes just to tell his story. The ONLY time Bendis had to even deal with another writers big event was during Civil War.

I see your point his take on characters is different but dude is taking chances and just interpreting the characters how he sees it. I am not going to make excuse for the man if those are issues you have they are valid the only thing i will say is that most writers are guilty of almost the exact same crimes you put on Bendis.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

I keep bringing up sales because that is only indicator that book is not as bad as people make it out to be. Other posters (not you) keep saying that avengers are shyt and Bendis did a terrible job on it and it was the worst thing ever. That is only way i can show that not everyone thinks Bendis run on avengers was terrible. And I am not going to lie I am impressed that marvel brought Avengers to the top considering How big the xmen were.

Some of that is just the typical hyperbolic shyt that happens around here (nobody can tell me Bendis Avengers run was worse than Austen's) but much of Bendis' criticism is well deserved.

I'll agree with you that the book wasn't as bad as people made it out to be, but the quality was still lacking. I was enjoying his run right up until the whole "Doctor Voodoo" thing, but I recognize even the stuff I enjoyed was flawed.

For a while Bendis was at least halfway trying to keep himself in check with some characters, but by the time Heroic Age came around he clearly gave no fukks and was just writing whatever. The way he wrote Thor in particular pissed me off.

Also what do you mean by flagship. Because when you bring up Flagship I was thinking the face of the company and that has always been spiderman (until the 90's where you could make the case for the x-men)

From the late 80's to the early 2000's X-Men was the flagship of Marvel in every sense. They had the most books, they were the top selling books, they sold the most merchandise, all the stories revolved around them, and they were the face of the company.

Spider-Man took a back seat to the X-men once they became super popular. Before Spider-Man broke out the Fantastic Four was Marvel's flagship title.

Also i can not think of one critically panned writer still working but then again i do not read comic book reviews.

off the top of my head:

Jeph Loeb
Daniel Way
JMS
Judd Winnick
Rob Liefeld
Scott Lobdell

I'm sure there are more but again that's just off the top of my head. That's not to say that some of those guys haven't done some really stellar work at some times, but the bulk of their careers they've done complete and utter crap (JMS being the exception).

 

[Mic-Nificent]

I see your point his take on characters is different but dude is taking chances and just interpreting the characters how he sees it. I am not going to make excuse for the man if those are issues you have they are valid the only thing i will say is that most writers are guilty of almost the exact same crimes you put on Bendis.

I'm not gonna say most writers do that shyt, but the ones that do get shyt for it too.

Fraction is another writer that got a lot of praise for work on one title but people couldn't stand his work on another title (despite how well it sold).

Fraction's work on Immortal Iron Fist and Hawkeye have been praised to the high heavens, but the shyt he was doing near the end of his Iron Man run and work on the X-titles was some of the most critically panned shyt I've seen in awhile.

And no it's not "taking chances" when he even does that shyt to his own characters. Even if that was the case, he shares those characters with other writers because it's a shared universe, you can't have character act one way in their book then act COMPLETELY different in another book.

It's also not a fresh take on the character when the fresh take always amounts to making characters sound like Ultimate Peter Parker or Ultimate Kitty Pryde.

 

[Bud Bundy]

Some of that is just the typical hyperbolic shyt that happens around here (nobody can tell me Bendis Avengers run was worse than Austen's) but much of Bendis' criticism is well deserved.

I'll agree with you that the book wasn't as bad as people made it out to be, but the quality was still lacking. I was enjoying his run right up until the whole "Doctor Voodoo" thing, but I recognize even the stuff I enjoyed was flawed.

For a while Bendis was at least halfway trying to keep himself in check with some characters, but by the time Heroic Age came around he clearly gave no fukks and was just writing whatever. The way he wrote Thor in particular pissed me off.



From the late 80's to the early 2000's X-Men was the flagship of Marvel in every sense. They had the most books, they were the top selling books, they sold the most merchandise, all the stories revolved around them, and they were the face of the company.

Spider-Man took a back seat to the X-men once they became super popular. Before Spider-Man broke out the Fantastic Four was Marvel's flagship title.



off the top of my head:

Jeph Loeb
Daniel Way
JMS
Judd Winnick
Rob Liefeld
Scott Lobdell

I'm sure there are more but again that's just off the top of my head. That's not to say that some of those guys haven't done some really stellar work at some times, but the bulk of their careers they've done complete and utter crap (JMS being the exception).

What is JMS working on now that is crap? His work is a slow build but once he gets momentum it is on.

I like way work on thunderbolts right now

I will give you Leob but for some reason his stories just create alot of hype. I fell for Hush and the shyt he did to the ultimate line but I would be dammed if i fell for the bullshyt that was the Red Hulk (I think Talbot would have made for a better choice)
And what the fukk is Lefield working on? dude is a better artist then writer

The others i can not comment on because i can not remember any of there work,

 

[Bud Bundy]

I'm not gonna say most writers do that shyt, but the ones that do get shyt for it too.

Fraction is another writer that got a lot of praise for work on one title but people couldn't stand his work on another title (despite how well it sold).

Fraction's work on Immortal Iron Fist and Hawkeye have been praised to the high heavens, but the shyt he was doing near the end of his Iron Man run and work on the X-titles was some of the most critically panned shyt I've seen in awhile.

And no it's not "taking chances" when he even does that shyt to his own characters. Even if that was the case, he shares those characters with other writers because it's a shared universe, you can't have character act one way in their book then act COMPLETELY different in another book.

It's also not a fresh take on the character when the fresh take always amounts to making characters sound like Ultimate Peter Parker or Ultimate Kitty Pryde.

I think Jessica Jones is pretty consistent whenever he writes her. But i think every writer does there own spin. Take spiderman some writers write him serious hardly cracking any jokes if any. While others have him making jokes left and right. Or how different is hulk each time a new writer gets a hold of him. Since all these characters are part of a shared universe it would be hard to have them have a consistent voice through all there works unless you just make the character one dimeonsal and uninteresting.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

What is JMS working on now that is crap? His work is a slow build but once he gets momentum it is on.

JMS is currently doing graphic Novels for DC as far as I know. He got an opportunity to do those graphic Novels after had HORRIBLE runs on Superman and Wonder Wonder Woman. JMS's work on Supreme Squadron was widely panned when it ceased being a Max title.

JMS is horrible at finishing his stories. He starts out great, levels off midway through, but his shyt always falls apart at the end.

I like way work on thunderbolts right now[/QUOTE]

I like some of Way's work too, but what he did on Wolverine Origins had even die hard Wolverine fans shytting on that book. What he did to Deadpool was downright shameful.

I will give you Leob but for some reason his stories just create alot of hype. I fell for Hush and the shyt he did to the ultimate line but I would be dammed if i fell for the bullshyt that was the Red Hulk (I think Talbot would have made for a better choice)

Loeb has been around FOREVER, but he built up a lot of cred because of his work with Tim Sale and his run on Superman/Batman. Then he built up more cred after being a producer for heroes. Loeb hasn't been the same since his kid died quite honestly.

And what the fukk is Lefield working on? dude is a better artist then writer

Liefeld was working on a BUNCH of new 52 comics for awhile. Not sure what he's doing now, but he always has some shyt that just pops up out of nowhere.

Liefeld was getting multiple books handed to him by DC to co-plot and pencil while at the same time they were telling Eric Battle they didn't have any work for him.

The others i can not comment on because i can not remember any of there work,

Scott Lobdell is currently writing the Teen Titans, Superboy, and Red Hood and the Outlaws. He also wrote some horrible X-Men comics. Only good thing he's ever written was Generation X IMO.

Judd Winnick was responsible for some of the worst Nightwing stories ever written.

 

[Bud Bundy]

JMS is currently doing graphic Novels for DC as far as I know. He got an opportunity to do those graphic Novels after had HORRIBLE runs on Superman and Wonder Wonder Woman. JMS's work on Supreme Squadron was widely panned when it ceased being a Max title.

JMS is horrible at finishing his stories. He starts out great, levels off midway through, but his shyt always falls apart at the end.

Your right about his his shyt not finishing on a high note

I do not know what happened with thor but his spiderman run and Squadron Supreme run where bad towards the end because he had a beef with the editors. He was pretty mad at the changes they had him do his spiderman stories and he just left Squadron Supreme at like issues 5. I was pissed as shyt because that was pretty good.

edit: Also how do you feel about Pak. I think he is one of the better wirters out there I am looking forward to his superman/batman stuff.

 

[Mr. Negative]

Last time we had a "Bendis Talk", I said the same thing I'm saying now.

It's like music, breh. look around right now. Quality does not equal sales. The Machine equals sales.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

Your right about his his shyt not finishing on a high note

I do not know what happened with thor but his spiderman run and Squadron Supreme run where bad towards the end because he had a beef with the editors. He was pretty mad at the changes they had him do his spiderman stories and he just left Squadron Supreme at like issues 5. I was pissed as shyt because that was pretty good.

I can't put that just on editors though. I used to give him that pass, but it happens every time regardless of where he's working. The best example of him starting strong and finishing poorly is probably Rising Stars.

I will say though that his Thor run ended because Bendis wanted to do Siege and essentially hijack Thor.

edit: Also how do you feel about Pak. I think he is one of the better wirters out there I am looking forward to his superman/batman stuff.

Greg Pak is probably one of my favorite writers working today. He's not doing anything that revolutionary but his stuff is usually very enjoyable. I loved his work on Hulk and his run on War Machine is underrated IMO. Then there was the work he did with Hercules and Skaar.

I'm not sure how I feel about his upcoming Superman/Batman. Not because of him but because DC editorial has been on some other shyt the past couple years.

 

[R=G]

Young Avengers such a HUGE disappointment.

Such a hardbody squad with interesting characters

Loki
Ms. America
Captain Marvel aka Novarr
Wiccan
Hulkling

They first arc is them fighting aliens who melt.

Something with Sinister is gonna pop up and I know that's gonna be good.

The Apocalypse Twins had a really good issue in Uncanny Avengers...really went far. It seems Wolverine's secrets about X Force will have consequences after all....Sunfire was at his best too.

As for Fraction? His little monthly jack off party for Scott and Emma in Uncanny were horrible. Stopped buying that after the third issue...you could just tell where that was going. Just pitiful.

 

[Mic-Nificent]

I think Jessica Jones is pretty consistent whenever he writes her. But i think every writer does there own spin. Take spiderman some writers write him serious hardly cracking any jokes if any. While others have him making jokes left and right. Or how different is hulk each time a new writer gets a hold of him. Since all these characters are part of a shared universe it would be hard to have them have a consistent voice through all there works unless you just make the character one dimeonsal and uninteresting.

Nah man, Bendis Contradicts his own shyt....

In Alias it was established that Jessica went to school with and had a huge crush on Peter Parker.

During the Trust arc of New Avengers Dr Strange casts a spell on the team that will show everyone their inner image of themselves. Peter appears as himself when he was a nerd in School and Bendis has Jessica say "Who's that?"

Then there was the thing with Luke Cages baby. Bendis had the baby suddenly develop green skrull eyes and he NEVER addressed it again...

 

[FaygoMI]

Some of that is just the typical hyperbolic shyt that happens around here (nobody can tell me Bendis Avengers run was worse than Austen's) but much of Bendis' criticism is well deserved.

I'll agree with you that the book wasn't as bad as people made it out to be, but the quality was still lacking. I was enjoying his run right up until the whole "Doctor Voodoo" thing, but I recognize even the stuff I enjoyed was flawed.

For a while Bendis was at least halfway trying to keep himself in check with some characters, but by the time Heroic Age came around he clearly gave no fukks and was just writing whatever. The way he wrote Thor in particular pissed me off.



From the late 80's to the early 2000's X-Men was the flagship of Marvel in every sense. They had the most books, they were the top selling books, they sold the most merchandise, all the stories revolved around them, and they were the face of the company.

Spider-Man took a back seat to the X-men once they became super popular. Before Spider-Man broke out the Fantastic Four was Marvel's flagship title.



off the top of my head:

Jeph Loeb
Daniel Way
JMS
Judd Winnick
Rob Liefeld
Scott Lobdell

I'm sure there are more but again that's just off the top of my head. That's not to say that some of those guys haven't done some really stellar work at some times, but the bulk of their careers they've done complete and utter crap (JMS being the exception).

this man knows his stuff.... My uncles collection is so so so so so sick.... he might have every Marvel book from about 68-94/95


them hoe ass avengers was almost a C team back in the day. The characters are way more interesting now but Marvel only switched this shyt up because of movies right. Watch how Dare Devil blow up since they got the rights back.

The Fantastic Four been straight ass status since they sold the movie rights before they started marking their own movies.....

Marvel controls what they do with their characters very closely... Even in Marvel vs Capcom 3 its a reason Hawkeye, Dr Strange, Rocket Raccon, Iron Fist, and Nova were put in the game by marvels orders..... look at whats popping with all these characters now and that was 2 years ago.


I love marvel tho, but don't make it seem like some writer birthed this Avengers movement. Marvel not owning the X-Men and Spider Man movie rights did that.