Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

Wargames

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1. That's what I thought initially, and that's still my dominant thought based on the dialogue and data pages. But I wouldn't put it past Hickman to have Years 1 and 10 be in life 10, and years 100 and 1000 be Moira's memory of life 9. There's just enough ambiguity for him to pull a trick like that. Although WHY it or anything else he does needs to be so ambiguous is another question entirely (who cares whether you plan your entire run out from start to finish if you can't write a satisfying and complete single comic issue in the process. These books are $4 a shot now, come the fukk on already).

2. You play politics like any other person, you just happen to have mutant powers. Just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them in every aspect of your life (that could make for an interesting story regarding the burden of power and when to use them when advocating for your rights as an empowered person, but alas, superheroics and technobabble and shyt...).

3. Don't act as if Xavier has this great moral compass when it comes to using his powers, especially when the last 15-20 years of stories have told us differently.

I still think him being a politician doesn’t stop sentinels being built which would eventually lead to his death. Also don’t say they wouldn’t be built because we Know Magneto alone is justification for their creation and all of that isn’t taking Apocalypse into consideration.
 

TrueEpic08

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I still think him being a politician doesn’t stop sentinels being built which would eventually lead to his death. Also don’t say they wouldn’t be built because we Know Magneto alone is justification for their creation and all of that isn’t taking Apocalypse into consideration.

I never said they would or wouldn't be built (personally, I don't care at all for another inevitable killer robot story, but I see what Hickman's going for and it's not at all the worst angle in the world to take). All I'm saying is that solutions that don't primarily involve weaponizing mutants in some fashion not even being an option, especially after superheroics and separatism of various types failed miserably says a lot about the characters, the writers and editors working on this book, as well as comics culture in general.

And honestly, I think a Magneto or Apocalypse story becomes more far more interesting in light of these issues if you don't immediately assume that it will end in killer robots being built (it might, but it also might not). In this respect Days of Future Past, as great as it is, absolutely poisoned the well for future X-Men writers because they took Claremont and Byrne's future as an absolute as opposed to a possibility borne from several very deliberate decisions made leading up to it.

Seriously, am I the only person who thinks an immediate recourse to either weaponizing yourself or separating yourself from society based on your sometimes highly destructive abilities is kind of a dumb first option when the whole point of any action you take (at least if you're Xavier) is to stop humanity from perceiving you as a threat? It's both fictional and real life insanity.
 

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I still think him being a politician doesn’t stop sentinels being built which would eventually lead to his death. Also don’t say they wouldn’t be built because we Know Magneto alone is justification for their creation and all of that isn’t taking Apocalypse into consideration.
If Xavier hooks up with Moira and she tells him about her reincarnation deal then Chuck can find whoever would be the first person to create Sentinels and plant the suggestion that his design won't be able to tell that he and Moira are mutants; then create the Sentinels as a non-killing option; or if Chuck really wanted to save the mutant race make the dude design the Sentinels with a design flaw where they just kill humans as well as mutants.
Let a Sentinel kill Captain America and a school bus full of children and watch how quick the whole project gets shut down.
There are all sorts of ways that a telepath as powerful as Xavier, who also has a roadmap for how his timeline unfolds, could manipulate things in his favor.
 

Wargames

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If Xavier hooks up with Moira and she tells him about her reincarnation deal then Chuck can find whoever would be the first person to create Sentinels and plant the suggestion that his design won't be able to tell that he and Moira are mutants; then create the Sentinels as a non-killing option; or if Chuck really wanted to save the mutant race make the dude design the Sentinels with a design flaw where they just kill humans as well as mutants.
Let a Sentinel kill Captain America and a school bus full of children and watch how quick the whole project gets shut down.
There are all sorts of ways that a telepath as powerful as Xavier, who also has a roadmap for how his timeline unfolds, could manipulate things in his favor.

:dwillhuh: Bruh

:whoa:Kill Captain America and a bus full of Children?

:demonic:If they die, they die......is not what Xavier’s dream is about.
 

TNC

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I never said they would or wouldn't be built (personally, I don't care at all for another inevitable killer robot story, but I see what Hickman's going for and it's not at all the worst angle in the world to take). All I'm saying is that solutions that don't primarily involve weaponizing mutants in some fashion not even being an option, especially after superheroics and separatism of various types failed miserably says a lot about the characters, the writers and editors working on this book, as well as comics culture in general.

And honestly, I think a Magneto or Apocalypse story becomes more far more interesting in light of these issues if you don't immediately assume that it will end in killer robots being built (it might, but it also might not). In this respect Days of Future Past, as great as it is, absolutely poisoned the well for future X-Men writers because they took Claremont and Byrne's future as an absolute as opposed to a possibility borne from several very deliberate decisions made leading up to it.

Seriously, am I the only person who thinks an immediate recourse to either weaponizing yourself or separating yourself from society based on your sometimes highly destructive abilities is kind of a dumb first option when the whole point of any action you take (at least if you're Xavier) is to stop humanity from perceiving you as a threat? It's both fictional and real life insanity.


Fam... do you keep up with history? Violence is almost the only sure fire thing you can count on from humanity. There hasn’t been a point in human history were violence wasn’t the common recourse of action. This is just being mirrored by the comics.


The Krakoa thing is interesting because its really the only thing the mutants haven’t been able to try, which is leverage.

From Day One the mutants have been fighting for the lives and begging for a seat at the table and they deserve one. However in life, you don’t get what you deserve, you get what you have leverage to negotiate. The Mutants have never had much to leverage outside of “We promise to not blow ya’ll up” that half the time ends up getting broken. Take cues from America’s history, we ain’t just gonna sit around and adhere to a threat. Mutants now have something of value to offer the humans ALONG WITH the threat of their powers by rejecting the gift. In negotiations and war, you have to make it not worth your opponent’s efforts to attack/conquer you to actually maintain any level of peace.
 

TrueEpic08

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Fam... do you keep up with history? Violence is almost the only sure fire thing you can count on from humanity. There hasn’t been a point in human history were violence wasn’t the common recourse of action. This is just being mirrored by the comics.


The Krakoa thing is interesting because its really the only thing the mutants haven’t been able to try, which is leverage.

From Day One the mutants have been fighting for the lives and begging for a seat at the table and they deserve one. However in life, you don’t get what you deserve, you get what you have leverage to negotiate. The Mutants have never had much to leverage outside of “We promise to not blow ya’ll up” that half the time ends up getting broken. Take cues from America’s history, we ain’t just gonna sit around and adhere to a threat. Mutants now have something of value to offer the humans ALONG WITH the threat of their powers by rejecting the gift. In negotiations and war, you have to make it not worth your opponent’s efforts to attack/conquer you to actually maintain any level of peace.

Yes, I do keep up with history. It literally used to be my fukking job and to an extent it still is.

Guess what else human history has told us: Using violence and force as a deterrent is all well and good until you no longer have the biggest gun on the block. Then you're a threat to be eliminated post-haste and trust me when I say you can't always be in the equal or superior position. Don't believe me, take a good hard look at the current atrocity being perpetuated in Kashimir: a "peace" borne partially from nuclear deterrance that collapsed the very second India thought they could gain an advantage. Some peace through superior firepower that turned out to be.

The ONLY lasting peaces in human history have come not from threat of force but through shared values. If you're wedded to playing power politics, you and your opponent are always going to end up killing one another at some point down the line. And if not your current opponent, then someone else. If not someone else, then your country will rot from within. That is the lesson of political history (see American political history from 1945 onward).

And besides, you're still not answering the question of why Hickman didn't even consider a political option. In fact, you're even making the point for me: at the very least the leverage game should have come to Xavier and Moira's mind much earlier than "just separate" or "make war," because at least you're attempting to use a deterrent as opposed to becoming an actual threat. All you're telling me is that it's idiotic both from a logical standpoint, as well as from a generally interesting storytelling standpoint, for none of this to have really come up before our dumbass scientist heroine died nine times.
 

Emoryal

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1. That's what I thought initially, and that's still my dominant thought based on the dialogue and data pages. But I wouldn't put it past Hickman to have Years 1 and 10 be in life 10, and years 100 and 1000 be Moira's memory of life 9. There's just enough ambiguity for him to pull a trick like that. Although WHY it or anything else he does needs to be so ambiguous is another question entirely (who cares whether you plan your entire run out from start to finish if you can't write a satisfying and complete single comic issue in the process. These books are $4 a shot now, come the fukk on already).

2. You play politics like any other person, you just happen to have mutant powers. Just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them in every aspect of your life (that could make for an interesting story regarding the burden of power and when to use them when advocating for your rights as an empowered person, but alas, superheroics and technobabble and shyt...).

3. Don't act as if Xavier has this great moral compass when it comes to using his powers, especially when the last 15-20 years of stories have told us differently.
So you're mad at your own assumptions? And Im not mentioning 2 and 3. 9/10 what Im witnessing is complete cognitive dissonance on your part.
 

Emoryal

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Yes, I do keep up with history. It literally used to be my fukking job and to an extent it still is.

Guess what else human history has told us: Using violence and force as a deterrent is all well and good until you no longer have the biggest gun on the block. Then you're a threat to be eliminated post-haste and trust me when I say you can't always be in the equal or superior position. Don't believe me, take a good hard look at the current atrocity being perpetuated in Kashimir: a "peace" borne partially from nuclear deterrance that collapsed the very second India thought they could gain an advantage. Some peace through superior firepower that turned out to be.

The ONLY lasting peaces in human history have come not from threat of force but through shared values. If you're wedded to playing power politics, you and your opponent are always going to end up killing one another at some point down the line. And if not your current opponent, then someone else. If not someone else, then your country will rot from within. That is the lesson of political history (see American political history from 1945 onward).

And besides, you're still not answering the question of why Hickman didn't even consider a political option. In fact, you're even making the point for me: at the very least the leverage game should have come to Xavier and Moira's mind much earlier than "just separate" or "make war," because at least you're attempting to use a deterrent as opposed to becoming an actual threat. All you're telling me is that it's idiotic both from a logical standpoint, as well as from a generally interesting storytelling standpoint, for none of this to have really come up before our dumbass scientist heroine died nine times.
They dont make ethnostates out of thin air my guy clearly there was politics involved there the problem was the machines were always created by someone somewhere and wiped them out. Remember Genosha? Even in the current timeline theyve seemingly made "peace" and they still show up. Is this the hill youre really trying to die on?
 

Jx2

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I just wanna step in here and say I can’t even begin to phrase how happy I am that the last 3 pages of this thread have been nothing but impassioned (and at times way too angry :russ:) banter regarding these new X-Men books.

How many people in here actually followed the blue/gold/red books let alone liked them enough to argue about the merits of the storylines’ legitimacy?


Hickman 2020
 
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parallax

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If Xavier hooks up with Moira and she tells him about her reincarnation deal then Chuck can find whoever would be the first person to create Sentinels and plant the suggestion that his design won't be able to tell that he and Moira are mutants; then create the Sentinels as a non-killing option; or if Chuck really wanted to save the mutant race make the dude design the Sentinels with a design flaw where they just kill humans as well as mutants.
Let a Sentinel kill Captain America and a school bus full of children and watch how quick the whole project gets shut down.

There are all sorts of ways that a telepath as powerful as Xavier, who also has a roadmap for how his timeline unfolds, could manipulate things in his favor.

so what happens when the avengers and various supers investigate the incident? then you have the avengers at your doorstep.
 

Jmare007

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I just wanna step in here and say I can’t even begin to phrase how happy I am that the last the 3 pages of this thread have been nothing impassioned (and at times way too angry :russ:) banter regarding these new X-Mem books.

How many people in here actually followed the blue/gold/red books let alone liked them enough to argue about the merits of the storylines’ legitimacy?


Hickman 2020

And we are only in issue #3 :russ:
 

TrueEpic08

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So you're mad at your own assumptions? And Im not mentioning 2 and 3. 9/10 what Im witnessing is complete cognitive dissonance on your part.

I'm pretty sure you don't know what the term "cognitive dissonance" means based on this accusation. Hickman's materials themselves introduce the ambiguity I refer to (the timelines, the reference to war in both timelines) and I've been clear and consistent in my dislike for his endlessly deferred, mystery box-style of constructing narratives.
 

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so what happens when the avengers and various supers investigate the incident? then you have the avengers at your doorstep.
How would The Avengers know Chuck had anything to do with it? They'd blame Bolivar Trask and go after him or be mad enough to destroy all of the Sentinels in existence. And that would inadvertently play into Xavier's machinations too.

The only way they could pin it on Xavier is if they had their own telepath and The Avengers have always been too stupid to realize they really need to have a team telepath considering how many telepathic mutants are roaming the streets. They booted Moondragon out and haven't replaced that power set since.
 

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How would The Avengers know Chuck had anything to do with it? They'd blame Bolivar Trask and go after him or be mad enough to destroy all of the Sentinels in existence. And that would inadvertently play into Xavier's machinations too.

The only way they could pin it on Xavier is if they had their own telepath and The Avengers have always been too stupid to realize they really need to have a team telepath considering how many telepathic mutants are roaming the streets. They booted Moondragon out and haven't replaced that power set since.

You really think a Mavel comic were Xavier would do something like that would end up with him getting away with it? :dwillhuh:
 
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