Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Just read Powers of X. Moira X! This gotta be the GOAT retcon.

 

[John Reena]

Hickman made me interested in Destiny and made her actually a character to be feared.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Hickman made me interested in Destiny and made her actually a character to be feared.

She daughtered her about her people, sent her on a mission in her next life then told Pyro to burn her slow so she remembers.

 

[TNC]

Yes, I do keep up with history. It literally used to be my fukking job and to an extent it still is.

Guess what else human history has told us: Using violence and force as a deterrent is all well and good until you no longer have the biggest gun on the block. Then you're a threat to be eliminated post-haste and trust me when I say you can't always be in the equal or superior position. Don't believe me, take a good hard look at the current atrocity being perpetuated in Kashimir: a "peace" borne partially from nuclear deterrance that collapsed the very second India thought they could gain an advantage. Some peace through superior firepower that turned out to be.

The ONLY lasting peaces in human history have come not from threat of force but through shared values. If you're wedded to playing power politics, you and your opponent are always going to end up killing one another at some point down the line. And if not your current opponent, then someone else. If not someone else, then your country will rot from within. That is the lesson of political history (see American political history from 1945 onward).

And besides, you're still not answering the question of why Hickman didn't even consider a political option. In fact, you're even making the point for me: at the very least the leverage game should have come to Xavier and Moira's mind much earlier than "just separate" or "make war," because at least you're attempting to use a deterrent as opposed to becoming an actual threat. All you're telling me is that it's idiotic both from a logical standpoint, as well as from a generally interesting storytelling standpoint, for none of this to have really come up before our dumbass scientist heroine died nine times.

Ok good then you should understand that mutants and their powers are literally ticking time
Bombs. They could do everything right and humans are still gonna hate and fear them. Magneto has always tried being the superior force but it doesn’t work when he has to battle humans and other mutants. What Hickman is doing now is something they haven’t really tried yet, they are offering something of value to the rest of the world, just like Wakanda and Vibranium WHILE also being a massive threat but not seeking rule by force.

I agree with your assessment on shared values and history but I don’t think you were understanding what I was saying. I’m saying human history USUALLY AND NORMALLY goes straight to violence first. Hell look at Moria and her efforts in the multiple lives, she sought all the hateful and violent options before trying peaceful ones. Also if you’ve read X-Men comics over the years, the political approach has been tried. From Senator Kelly and other politicians, that normally end up dead to a future where Dazzler became the first mutant president. It hasn’t worked in the past, granted that could be on the writer’s but why do you feel this would be the most effective approach given the history of the characters?

Also you seem to be implying the current “biggest gun” strategy we employ as Americans right now is not an effective one, why?

 

[MenacingMonk]

Wolverines mini-Review

I started to collect the Death/Return of Wolverine comics this year. I started with the issues he got the virus all the way up to the comics before "Return" started. (I don't think I'll buy the "Return" issues because the mini-series was meh.) Anyways, I had everything I wanted to start reading the Death saga from the start. Wolverines was the last series.

This series was decent, but the ending was some bullshyt. All of this was happening as Secret Wars was approaching, so I'm sure Soule didn't give a shyt about it. I felt robbed at the end of the final issue. Like all that shyt happened for this?

There were some bright spots like Deadpool's one issue fukkery. An appearance from Blade for a few issues was unexpected. A character I never heard of named Fantomelle had some decent moments. Along the way the focal point of the story was on Mystique, which the seeds were planted in a previous mini-series. I really hate that bytch.

The art was different for every issue. I guess to give artists a chance to shine. The art ranged from to

Verdict: 2.75/5 (would've been a 3 if not for that shytty ending.)

 

[Wargames]

I just wanna step in here and say I can’t even begin to phrase how happy I am that the last the 3 pages of this thread have been nothing but impassioned (and at times way too angry ) banter regarding these new X-Men books.

How many people in here actually followed the blue/gold/red books let alone liked them enough to argue about the merits of the storylines’ legitimacy?


Hickman 2020

Marvel smartened up when the brought him back. Now they need to get Remender to return and have him focus on a core team with a singular goal to kill someone like he did with X-Force and that first avengers run.

It’s not fair to hold Axis against him cause it was a dumb concept and events like that don’t play to his strengths.

 

[nieman]

I can't really get hype for these 2 X-Series. I'm not picking up PoX #2, and I may drop HoX after #3. So far, Hickman hasn't really done much of anything. But like I said earlier in the thread, he's a slow burn.

The only thing he's done was retcon Moira. But the multiple timelines in the 616 have always existed and each one has always been real. Him giving a why is insignificant because no one asked about the why. It changes nothing about the history, and essentially, he's not done anything groundbreaking so far.

 

[Jx2]

I can't really get hype for these 2 X-Series. I'm not picking up PoX #2, and I may drop HoX after #3. So far, Hickman hasn't really done much of anything. But like I said earlier in the thread, he's a slow burn.

The only thing he's done was retcon Moira. But the multiple timelines in the 616 have always existed and each one has always been real. Him giving a why is insignificant because no one asked about the why. It changes nothing about the history, and essentially, he's not done anything groundbreaking so far.

Serious question...Do you walk out of a movie a half hour in if it hasn't picked up in action or intensity? I'm not criticizing but I think you understand the analogy.

 

[blankstairz]

Serious question...Do you walk out of a movie a half hour in if it hasn't picked up in action or intensity? I'm not criticizing but I think you understand the analogy.

The better analogy would be a tv series and not a movie.

With a tv series, there are episodes for a season.

Imagine if this was Breaking Bad or Sopranos.

Or even better, Better Call Saul.

After having watched Breaking Bad, and then the first few episodes of Better Call Saul, I thought BCS was kinda slow. But gave it a chance knowing what the people behind breaking Bad had done in the past. Sure enough, BCS turned out to be good.

At the same time, just because a few episodes of show (or few issues of a comics series) aren't to one's liking, doesn't mean it is immune from critique. There is no guarantee things will turnout well. You can only judge what exists at the moment.

 

[Jx2]

The better analogy would be a tv series and not a movie.

With a tv series, there are episodes for a season.

Imagine if this was Breaking Bad or Sopranos.

Or even better, Better Call Saul.

After having watched Breaking Bad, and then the first few episodes of Better Call Saul, I thought BCS was kinda slow. But gave it a chance knowing what the people behind breaking Bad had done in the past. Sure enough, BCS turned out to be good.

At the same time, just because a few episodes of show (or few issues of a comics series) aren't to one's liking, doesn't mean it is immune from critique. There is no guarantee things will turnout well. You can only judge what exists at the moment.

Real talk. After only the first 3 episodes of The Wire, I wasn't sold yet and thought my buddy that recommended it was crazy when he said it was the best show ever way back in college.

By episode 4 and 5 I was hooked like Bubbles

 

[Da Jungles]

The place I picked up the first issues is completely sold out of HoX#2

I didn't know they were moving like that these days.

I payed $15 for issue number 1 because it was sold out.

 

[John Reena]

Marvel smartened up when the brought him back. Now they need to get Remender to return and have him focus on a core team with a singular goal to kill someone like he did with X-Force and that first avengers run.

It’s not fair to hold Axis against him cause it was a dumb concept and events like that don’t play to his strengths.

“Axis” was so hilarious with so much shenanigans And tomfoolery:

*Carnage being a hero and making a heroic sacrifice

*Scarlet Witch And Quicksilver being retconned into not being Magneto’s kids

*Dr. Doom having Red Skull chained up in his living room like some kind of animal

*Red Skull turning into Onslaught

* The sight of Spider-Man fighting Apocalypse

*The Avengers being “inverted” and being jerks

*Sabretooth, a cold blooded psychopath of epic proportions being turned into a noble hero.

 

[TrueEpic08]

HoX #2 argument was going nowhere, so I decided to check out some other books in the meantime...

Bendis hasn't been a consistently good writer for like 15 years (it's seriously shocking to see the gulf in quality between his early noir material or the still legitimately fantastic Fortune and Glory and what he does these days), but goddamn is Pearl worth checking out for the art alone. The story is kind of middling (first arc is very interesting despite the usual hit-or-miss Bendis touches and some dodgy paneling from Michael Gaydos, but it kind of loses its raison d'etre in the second arc), but I'd seriously frame some of Gaydos's pages and hang them in my house. Linework, collaging, and especially the colors are all exquisite. Even the less coherent pages are amazing to look at. Great stuff.

These next two actually made me rethink my approach to HoX/PoX a bit.

I flipped through the new Zdarsky Daredevil comic, which has a very interesting premise (superhero gets back into the game after a tragedy and realizes he doesn't have it anymore) but kind of loses me in some of the execution. I like the first arc in the abstract (in fact, it's the type of story I really wish superhero comics told more often given all the blunt force trauma these heroes dole out), but not necessarily as a present-day Daredevil comic. Besides it being two issues too long and pointlessly shoehorning in The Punisher for no adequately good reason (I see what Zdarsky is doing, but I don't think he needs to be there), I just don't buy Daredevil, after all he's been through, only just now killing a guy by accident and not being able to process it (which, in fact, Luke Cage almost flat out says to him at the end of the story: they've all done it before and had to deal with the guilt and failure). I would totally buy this as an early DD story, but not now. It would be better if it were part of a "Matt Murdock's losing it" storyline, but I've seen more than enough of those for a lifetime. As it is, I like the story, but the context within which it has to work kind of spoils it for me.

Also, knowing that corporate imperatives means that Matt Murdock has to be Daredevil again doesn't help this either (thus robbing Spider-Man's great speech of all its power). It would be much more interesting to me at least if Matt really did just retire after losing his edge and become a lawyer/parole officer/whatever while the urban legend of Daredevil percolated through Hell's Kitchen and affected its culture and general social rhythms (ironically, they're much more willing to do with with B-tier heroes like The Punisher. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Greg Rucka or somebody else did a Punisher run with elements of this that I liked). But that's not the type of story Marvel's going to do with one of its primary properties on said property's main book. You can't always get what you want.

Giant Size X-Statix, however, was RIGHT up my alley. I don't know who thought bringing back Peter Milligan and the Allreds to fukk around with superhero conventions was a good idea, but that person deserves a medal. Blatantly thumbing their noses at the arbitrariness of reboots and resurrections, thinking of the shyttiest and most transparent reasons possible to not bring back characters in lieu of their Identity Politics-sanctioned equivalent, the general inclusion of the IdPol angle into the X-Statix concept which is guaranteed to piss SOMEBODY somewhere off, goddamn I missed this (this isn't even getting into the new U-Go Girl's contrived origin story or the ridiculous way she's supposed to activate her powers. So on the nose that I should check if that was in the original run ). This isn't even getting into the amazing flat 60s aesthetic of Mike and Laura Allred's art. Thank goodness this is only leading to a mini-series since only two-thirds of the original X-Force/X-Statix run was great, but that two-thirds was really amazing shyt (you can't tell me that Gillen and McKelvie weren't at least thumbing through that run when they came up with The Wicked + The Divine). It's the follow-up I never knew I really needed.

It's the perfect series for someone as burned out on superhero comics as I am (Warren Ellis's Avatar Press stuff and, closer to home, Nextwave hit the same spot, as did The Boys to an extent. That's another story, however), which means that the synergy of big dumb, morally-irresponsible superheroics and big dumb, morally-irresponsible science fetishism that HoX/PoX travels in is just going to get under my skin no matter what. Realistically I should just drop it, but there's just enough good ideas there to see me through the two minis as long as I remember that they probably won't do anything for me emotionally and I'm reading them more as a historian than anything else.

 

[Mortal1]

Marvel smartened up when the brought him back. Now they need to get Remender to return and have him focus on a core team with a singular goal to kill someone like he did with X-Force and that first avengers run.

It’s not fair to hold Axis against him cause it was a dumb concept and events like that don’t play to his strengths.

Remender definitely needs a second shot he had some of the best runs during that time with Uncanny X-force, Venom and Uncanny Avengers right up until AXIS started.

 

[MenacingMonk]

“Axis” was so hilarious with so much shenanigans And tomfoolery:

*Carnage being a hero and making a heroic sacrifice

*Scarlet Witch And Quicksilver being retconned into not being Magneto’s kids

*Dr. Doom having Red Skull chained up in his living room like some kind of animal

*Red Skull turning into Onslaught

* The sight of Spider-Man fighting Apocalypse

*The Avengers being “inverted” and being jerks

*Sabretooth, a cold blooded psychopath of epic proportions being turned into a noble hero.

I remember hating that series after it ended, but some years later I was thinking of all the fukkery it had. Now I don’t mind it.

The Kluh