I can agree with you that a lot of range time and research helps, but I have learned more from a day of class and pro range instruction than just figuring it out. During that instruction we figured out why I was pulling shots left (bad trigger pull during quick shots). Mostly it was bad habits I had developed before I received instruction. I had to fix my trigger pull and stance. Also I was introduced to breaking line of sight, natural aim, shooting from different positions behind cover and choosing proper cover to name a few of the points and that is just the stuff that immediately stuck in my mind. Get the instruction!! Good instruction will help you way more than you think.
Essential The Official Coli Gun Owners Thread
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I can agree with you that a lot of range time and research helps, but I have learned more from a day of class and pro range instruction than just figuring it out. During that instruction we figured out why I was pulling shots left (bad trigger pull during quick shots). Mostly it was bad habits I had developed before I received instruction. I had to fix my trigger pull and stance. Also I was introduced to breaking line of sight, natural aim, shooting from different positions behind cover and choosing proper cover to name a few of the points and that is just the stuff that immediately stuck in my mind. Get the instruction!! Good instruction will help you way more than you think.
David_TheMan
Banned
I've had instruction and I practice.
I'm not trying to get into an argument, like I said earlier, best thing to do is increase your effectiveness however you do that, more power to you.
Your only as effective as you can be without proper feedback and training. Yeah, you can teach yourself but you can't provide appropriate feedback without watching dozens of others and watching recordings of yourself if you're going to do it alone.
At the end of the day it's just common sense. Whether basketball, football, shooting, there's simple things people do incorrect or wrong that suddenly a minor adjustment like feet placement, not tilting your head, keeping your back straight, putting a little bend in your knees can fix. You don't and won't know you have these imperfections unless you self monitor or someone else tells you.
Training is usually a couple of hours, cost a couple of dollars and is an invaluable resource. You learn exercises you can do without further instruction. Yeah you can learn it for free but just like exercises people do them from watching videos then you see people in the gym using incorrect form. Yeah you can squat 300lbs with incorrect form but it's not the most efficient or effective.
David_TheMan
Banned
If there was an actual standard other than putting round on target consistantly and rapidly or slowly but ultra precisely I would agree on the need for outside training. There isn't. Results give you instant feedback after execution. Like a video game, and since you are shooting live rounds at people and no trainer worth a damn is standing down range on live fire and telling you what they see its all academic.
Train and refine your techinique to accomplish what you want to execute. Simple as that and not anymore complex than that.
If you feel you need an instructor, get one.
If you feel you dont need one and you produce results and are achieving your metrics of advancement (whatever they may be) fine.
At the end of the day the only thing that matters if effectiveness, achieve that through any means neccessary, shooting often is neccessary either way so as long as you shot I don't care.
I get what your driving at but shooting is more than just picking up a gun, pointing it and pulling the trigger.
Yea it's important to shoot. But you can't reasonably say to anyone that proper hand placement, proper foot placement, muzzle control, breathing, posture, even just basic (not common) legal stuff like shooting someone in your house that is holding your TV then trying to say you felt threatened, isn't important.
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David_TheMan
Banned
Yeah its putting round on target, which is why I stress effectiveness in my posts.
But what people want to know is "how do I become effective" or "how do I become more effective". Sure you can trial and error, but when you look at basic things like trigger control....
Look at that womans trigger finger. It's improper so when she pulls the trigger the gun is going to pull to the right, if she is holding it right otherwise whatever recoil (if any) may send the bullet anywhere but it won't be on target. Sure it may "hit paper" or even a person standing 5ft away but the intention is not just to make contact.
Long story short she could shoot $50 worth of 9mm (about 200 rds) plus range time, and keep pouring money down a drain wondering "why can I shoot straight?" Then Google and watch youtube videos which will probably entice her to buy a better gun, or "more reliable". Ammo, or a better pistol grip, or front sight.
She could ask someone in real life for free who knows (like that person you referred to 's dad) or she could pay for one course that's generally in the range of 1-2 boxes of bulk ammo and have all the basic general stuff and mistakes cleared up by a trained professional with live and direct feedback on what she's doing, not what most people or some people are doing. Even LeBron and Steph curry, have shooting coaches, Tom Brady and Peyton manny had/have an coaches. They dont just show up and throw balls and run plays. Granted they may throw balls and shoot balls on their own, they utilize the feedback their given to improve. No matter how good you are there is always room for improvement.
David_TheMan
Banned
What if the woman who holds a gun like that has excellent consistant groupings at all ranges?But what people want to know is "how do I become effective" or "how do I become more effective". Sure you can trial and error, but when you look at basic things like trigger control....
Look at that womans trigger finger. It's improper so when she pulls the trigger the gun is going to pull to the right, if she is holding it right otherwise whatever recoil (if any) may send the bullet anywhere but it won't be on target. Sure it may "hit paper" or even a person standing 5ft away but the intention is not just to make contact.
Long story short she could shoot $50 worth of 9mm (about 200 rds) plus range time, and keep pouring money down a drain wondering "why can I shoot straight?" Then Google and watch youtube videos which will probably entice her to buy a better gun, or "more reliable". Ammo, or a better pistol grip, or front sight.
She could ask someone in real life for free who knows (like that person you referred to 's dad) or she could pay for one course that's generally in the range of 1-2 boxes of bulk ammo and have all the basic general stuff and mistakes cleared up by a trained professional with live and direct feedback on what she's doing, not what most people or some people are doing. Even LeBron and Steph curry, have shooting coaches, Tom Brady and Peyton manny had/have an coaches. They dont just show up and throw balls and run plays. Granted they may throw balls and shoot balls on their own, they utilize the feedback their given to improve. No matter how good you are there is always room for improvement.
What has all your talking about proper technique really done then?
Which is my point.
Everything is superflous. I remember reading jeff cooper and him claiming you should never expect your shot to go off, it should always be a surprise when pulling your trigger, people live by that mantra and train under it, at gunsite. Same token you have someone like Haley of magpul who says everything should be predictable, expecting your shot to be random makes no sense. Both Clint Smith of Gunsite and Haley of magpul have differing philosophies and they are both effective. Same with Haley saying the 60/40 grip is not practicle to him, while others swear by it like the Gunsite Cooper followers. You have my boy Rob and Springfield who says when people say you shouldn't pull or yank the trigger that is BS, yang that bytch don't squeeze and don't even go slow, pull the trigger as fast as you can but just focus not on the sites but on keeping the gun still, this is counter to almost all training provide that stress squeeze the trigger don't pull go slow and etc.
Its all means nothing, if it isn't effective. So again you can do what you like, suggest to anyone what you like, but I just no longer care with regard to the "proper" way the isocilies stance vs weaver stance , or the traditional rifle grip vs Costa C grip, or etc. If it works for you and you can deliver consistantly do it, its the only thing that matters.
As for improvement it depends on your goal, if you want to get into precision shooting it can't hurt to learn techniques to implement to aid in precision. If you simply want to be able to hit man sized targets at center mass at 500m or 700m depending on your round, it becomes not an labor of improving but a labor of maintaining. So again there is no one size fits all, sheepdog, etc stuff. Are you effective with your weapon, yes or no?
This quote makes no sense, since a man that owns a gun is literally armed by the very definition of the word, and extremely dangerous.
I guess I dont know how optimistic and trusting you are regarding others with guns. I know everyone has to start from somewhere. I've seen a lot of new people that couldn't hit paper, and a lot of seasoned owners with bad habits, bad form etc.
Just because you bought a gun or have one in your hand, car, house doesn't make you by your word effective. Sure you can probably hit something depending on how many rounds are in your gun. I see people all the time drop the magazine thinking it's a safety. If you walk up to any person that doesn't shoot and ask them to show you or tell you how iron sights work, they won't know. People that don't know anything about guns simply don't know anything about guns. Whether they watch youtube or go to a class information is being passed on.
Yeah with time, trial and error is fine. If you practiced enough you could shoot with your toes and hit a target every time.
The purpose of training isn't to believe everything you hear but to learn things whether informative, or practical and implement or not. And if something makes sense to you, to do it. Rather than. Close yourself off and learn things through trial and error. Especially when that could mean your life.
Speaking of the isosceles stance. Thats fine for cops because they have a bullet proof vest. You probably don't wear a vest therefore you don't want to present a broad Target for someone shooting at you, and if someone rushes you in that stance you are going to fall straight back on your ass. So when you stand up with people and they are in that stance and you push them and they stumble they say"
what's another way or a better way to stand?" Yeah, you don't have to push everyone, some people can hear and see that on a youtube video and implement it, hell some people might find a way to use a head butt or front kick to deflect it and tell you or me "isosceles stance is fine, here's what I do" but trial and error , especially when the exchange of proven techniques, tips and feedback is just silly. Theres no one right way, like I said you could teach yourself to pull the trigger with your big toe, but there are more effective ways of shooting, becoming a more effective shooter, and learning or encountering them in more efficient ways than just trial and error or even a lonesome video. But you do have to practice and implement, whatever your doing. Just having a gun in a drawer for 5 years ain't shyt. You need to shoot, practice shooting. And don't forget to take into account that people are fukked up, can't raise one shoulder or rotate their hip or spine, can't bend a knee, have arthritis, people scale back their firearms all the time. Having a hand cannon is cool at 30, maybe not at 96.
David_TheMan
Banned
I guess I dont know how optimistic and trusting you are regarding others with guns. I know everyone has to start from somewhere. I've seen a lot of new people that couldn't hit paper, and a lot of seasoned owners with bad habits, bad form etc.
Just because you bought a gun or have one in your hand, car, house doesn't make you by your word effective. Sure you can probably hit something depending on how many rounds are in your gun. I see people all the time drop the magazine thinking it's a safety. If you walk up to any person that doesn't shoot and ask them to show you or tell you how iron sights work, they won't know. People that don't know anything about guns simply don't know anything about guns. Whether they watch youtube or go to a class information is being passed on.
Yeah with time, trial and error is fine. If you practiced enough you could shoot with your toes and hit a target every time.
The purpose of training isn't to believe everything you hear but to learn things whether informative, or practical and implement or not. And if something makes sense to you, to do it. Rather than. Close yourself off and learn things through trial and error. Especially when that could mean your life.
Speaking of the isosceles stance. Thats fine for cops because they have a bullet proof vest. You probably don't wear a vest therefore you don't want to present a broad Target for someone shooting at you, and if someone rushes you in that stance you are going to fall straight back on your ass. So when you stand up with people and they are in that stance and you push them and they stumble they say"
And don't forget to take into account that people are fukked up, can't raise one shoulder or rotate their hip or spine, can't bend a knee, have arthritis, people scale back their firearms all the time. Having a hand cannon is cool at 30, maybe not at 96.
The only way your analogy sort of works is if you say marksman instead of armed. Marksmen indicates a level of proficiency with your firearm, armed just indicates that you have a firearm.
That said as for trial and error that is how all advancement comes, and seeing that there are so many methods of doing the same thing, its what aids in an individual finding out what works specifically for them.
Again though to me at the end of the day the only thing that matters is effectiveness, people learn differently so its all good just remember what works for you doesn't neccessarily work for everyone.
Yes. Regardless of how you learn you can't deny that training or additional isn't beneficial. Whether in class, from YouTube, or an nra magazine that says "how to shoot properly."
What I'm advocating is for people to train and if possible train with others. It was good to come together with 9 other black folks and train.
David_TheMan
Banned
S&W coming for the Gen 5 glock.
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S&W M&P M2.0 Compact 9mm 4" Bbl 15 Rd : SMITH & WESSON S&W M&P M2.0 COMPACT 9MM 4" BBL 15 RD | Brownells
With Ambi Safety
S&W M&P M2.0 Compact 9mm 4"Bbl Safety 15 Rd : SMITH & WESSON S&W M&P M2.0 COMPACT 9MM 4"BBL AMBI SAFETY 15 RD | Brownells
No safety
S&W M&P M2.0 Compact 9mm 4" Bbl 15 Rd : SMITH & WESSON S&W M&P M2.0 COMPACT 9MM 4" BBL 15 RD | Brownells
SouljaVoy
♥ Black Love
Oh for sure. In GA you don't need a permit to buy or own guns. As long as you aint a felon you good.
You can even ride with one in the whip without a permit.... only need a permit to carry.
I meant for giving the guns away. I know in other states the laws are pretty strict if someone uses a gun registered to you in a crime.