Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Official Thread)

[BillBanneker]

Yeah it did. the whole idea of the force not belonging to someone just because of lineage is an forward idea. Kylo killing Snoke and truly saying this first order will be his and his alone, is a forward idea from the first movie where he was cool being an underboss. Rey getting to the point where her lineage didn't matter (until it did again with this movie) is a forward idea and it was her choosing her own path and identity rather than being beholden to her past. Even them realizing just how much the rest of the galaxy profited from the first order and gave it tacit consent, is a forward idea and helped in taking the first order out. Then finally, Luke's character development and arc and then getting to a point where he did what he did in the third act as a way to give "hope" to the rest of the galaxy was also supposed to move things forward until all that hope was wiped out again to reset for the third movie.

Those aren't forward ideas, RJ was just subverting and deconstructing the buildup from TFA and the expectations of star wars fans. The film ends basically in the same place. There really is no continuing story. Also, the idea of lineage isn't at that empathized as far as force ability.

Kylo and Rey's character arcs don't really change. Finn is the same bumbling dolt, Poe is just Poe. The useless Canto Bight subplot reveals that there are some folks making money off both the resistance and the first order, wow.

Kylo and the First Order are literally the in the same position as before. Snoke's death doesn't really alter Kylo's worldview or the idea of what the first order is or should be.

Rey is still with the resistance and being a force user. Her past lineage has no impact cause there was noting known about it in the first place. Her path was leading to becoming a trained jedi, and finding a new place of belonging but RJ did the subversion again with make the Jedi and Luke irrelevant, until for some reason the plot needs Luke again at the end. She's in the same place.

 

[MartyMcFly]

That’s not a forward idea. There’s no Jedi, no Sith, no force sensitive individuals period, in Star Wars who come from a lineage of force users. This isn’t a unique idea. Some people feared the Jedi in Outer Rim backwater worlds, because of the boogeyman rumors that the Jedi will come and take your kids.

Well it's forward in the sense of Lucas saying its in your blood and JJ saying its from your bloodline. Because I agree with you, but that idea that its not from a lineage is only in extended universe books that aren't even canon anymore

I agree with this and it's why I liked most of TLJ. But we also gotta admit that these advancements went against the basic premises of TFA. And while I liked those changes and made me wish TLJ had a different (a better) predecessor, the fact is that Johnson left no room to finish this story in a 3rd movie, let a lone finish the whole damn saga.

What Abrahams ended up being the worst case scenario as he combined his first movie - which was mostly thrown to the bushes in Ep VIII -, "course corrected" what he thought was necessary and added a whole buch of fan service that served no purpose and that was so bad it didn't even land with most of the hardcore SW audience.

And again, this all because Kennedy was thinking about making money, not making a legit trilogy.

I agree with most of this except the last. I think Kathleen gets a lot of unnecessary shyt while no one gives shyt to the person signing the checks...Disney. Disney wants to make money and Disney is always thinking about making money. Lucasfilm started life as an independent studio. It still has an independent studio mindset. That doesn't work well with Disney, a company that creates movies purely for merchandising purposes; that's it. The one knock I'll give to her is the lack of creative vision. There's a book to be written on all of this and what happened once Lucas gave the keys to Disney and once JJ left after Force Awakens

 

[MartyMcFly]

They really should've devloped Finn's origin and character in TFA



Those aren't forward ideas, RJ was just subverting and deconstructing the buildup from TFA and the expectations of star wars fans. The film ends basically in the same place. There really is no continuing story.


Kylo and Rey's character arcs don't really change. Finn is the same bumbling dolt, Poe is just Poe. The useless Canto Bight subplot reveals that there are some folks making money off both the resistance and the first order, wow.

Kylo and the First Order are literally the in the same position as before. Snoke's death doesn't really alter Kylo's worldview or the idea of what the first order is or should be.

Rey is still with the resistance and being a force user. Her past lineage has no impact cause there was noting known about it in the first place. Her path was leading to becoming a trained jedi, and finding a new place of belonging but RJ did the subversion again with make the Jedi and Luke irrelevant, until for some reason the plot needs Luke again at the end. She's in the same place.

Ehh I disagree about them being in the same position. Poe learns not to be such a hothead and his first instincts aren't always the best instincts. For a guy used to being a lone gunner and is now expected to lead people, thats a big change. Kylo is definitely in a different position because like I said, he goes from wanting to be an underboss to wanting to be a boss and command his own destiny and not be beholden to his grandfather, or Snoke, or his uncle anymore. That's a different thing for him. And same with Rey. She ends up in a different place for the reasons I stated.

 

[Panther]

No matter what happened in rise of skywalker, The last jedi is and will always be a trash movie

 

[Soymuscle Mike]

I agree with this and it's why I liked most of TLJ. But we also gotta admit that these advancements went against the basic premises of TFA. And while I liked those changes and made me wish TLJ had a different (a better) predecessor, the fact is that Johnson left no room to finish this story in a 3rd movie, let a lone finish the whole damn saga

Rian didn't really disregard TFA, he just took what it offered and answered it in ways we weren't expecting/aren't used to. For him the force "awakening" wasn't just about Rey, it was about Luke (who shut himself off) and the stableboy and even Kylo (taking out Snoke).

He took that Luke nonsense from TFA and said "Ok if Luke Skywalker went into hiding...that means he did something awful and is fukked up". I'm always a people blaming Rian for Luke when it was JJ who set up that Luke walked away from his friends/the fight. Rian just tried making sense of it and turned it into a crisis of conscience.

Finally, he made a third movie even easier in that he made the scale smaller - he took out Snoke which was a huge deal. He took out Luke which was a huge deal and he took out huge parts of the First Order (Holdo maneuvre) and the Resistance (getting killed).

Again it's JJ who now replaced Snoke with Palpatine, the first order with "the final order" and the resistance with...whoever showed up at the end of the movie. He basically replaced Luke as well by giving Rey the exact same crisis of conscience and whereas Yoda stepped in to help Luke now Luke steps in to help Rey, it's the same fukking beat.

I'm on record as not loving TLJ but I always said TLJ was mostly building on a lazy setup from JJ (there is no excuse for the Canto Bite stuff). TROS further exposes that JJ is the problem in this trilogy, not Rian.

Edit; JJ and a lack of oversight from Lucasfilm/KK.

 

[Jmare007]

Well it's forward in the sense of Lucas saying its in your blood and JJ saying its from your bloodline. Because I agree with you, but that idea that its not from a lineage is only in extended universe books that aren't even canon anymore


I agree with most of this except the last. I think Kathleen gets a lot of unnecessary shyt while no one gives shyt to the person signing the checks...Disney. Disney wants to make money and Disney is always thinking about making money. Lucasfilm started life as an independent studio. It still has an independent studio mindset. That doesn't work well with Disney, a company that creates movies purely for merchandising purposes; that's it. The one knock I'll give to her is the lack of creative vision. There's a book to be written on all of this and what happened once Lucas gave the keys to Disney and once JJ left after Force Awakens

But Disney is capable of letting people do a long term plan if it means big money. A sequel trilogy was going to do incredible regardless, so it was Kennedy's role to say "yo Bob, this is our 3 movie plan to make this shyt huge AND extend this brand in the long term".

Instead she went 1 director, 1 blank page, 1 movie, no vision/plan (up until ROS were their backs were against the wall). So much so that she had issues with every single director that worked on every movie, except for Rian Johnson. With a clear plan in mind, those issues wouldn't have been as bad because every director and writer would've know what could and couldn't be done.

I don't blame Disney for the lack of vision. If they let Feige have his once it was clear Marvel movies could make money, they sure as hell would've let Lucasfilm have theirs iwith an IP that was already known it could make huge money.


And yeah, the book about the sell to Disney and the backstage fukkery from 2012 to 2019 is gonna be a best seller and a must read.

 

[Soymuscle Mike]

Unstickied

Plus can't believe I'm out here defending TLJ now

 

[MartyMcFly]

But Disney is capable of letting people do a long term plan if it means big money. A sequel trilogy was going to do incredible regardless, so it was Kennedy's role to say "yo Bob, this is our 3 movie plan to make this shyt huge AND extend this brand in the long term".

Instead she went 1 director, 1 blank page, 1 movie, no vision/plan (up until ROS were their backs were against the wall). So much so that she had issues with every single director that worked on every movie, except for Rian Johnson. With a clear plan in mind, those issues wouldn't have been as bad because every director and writer would've know what could and couldn't be done.

I don't blame Disney for the lack of vision. If they let Feige have his once it was clear Marvel movies could make money, they sure as hell would've let Lucasfilm have theirs iwith an IP that was already known it could make huge money.


And yeah, the book about the sell to Disney and the backstage fukkery from 2012 to 2019 is gonna be a best seller and a must read.

That's fair.

 

[TobiOT]

Got unsticked within a week

Don't think it lasted longer than GOT

Unstickied

Plus can't believe I'm out here defending TLJ now

That must be infuriating

 

[Soymuscle Mike]

Got unsticked within a week

Don't think it lasted longer than GOT



That must be infuriating

Honestly I kind of have a new appreciation for it now. So that's the big win for me

Finn/Rose/DJ/Canto Byte is still the lamest throughline in all of SW. The taxation discussions in TPM and treasure hunt in TROS are more interesting to me.

 

[Jmare007]

Rian didn't really disregard TFA, he just took what it offered and answered it in ways we weren't expecting/aren't used to. For him the force "awakening" wasn't just about Rey, it was about Luke (who shut himself off) and the stableboy and even Kylo (taking out Snoke).

He took that Luke nonsense from TFA and said "Ok if Luke Skywalker went into hiding...that means he did something awful and is fukked up". I'm always a people blaming Rian for Luke when it was JJ who set up that Luke walked away from his friends/the fight. Rian just tried making sense of it and turned it into a crisis of conscience.

Finally, he made a third movie even easier in that he made the scale smaller - he took out Snoke which was a huge deal. He took out Luke which was a huge deal and he took out huge parts of the First Order (Holdo maneuvre) and the Resistance (getting killed).
.

We agree on the JJ and lack of plan/vision from Lucasfilm/Disney. So I'll just reply to this.

I'm fine with that Rian did with Luke. But I can totally understand why a lot of fans despise and feel like it was blasphemy.. There were a ton of options to explain J.J annoying question of "what happened to Luke". I like what RJ came up with but I also don't think it was perfect by any means.

He didn't take huge parts of the First Order though, that shyt was still a massive force. Specially compared to the Resistance that was pretty much 20 people at the end of TLJ. J.J didn't help in TFA awakens by killing every New Republic planet with that retarded "biggest Death Star EVER" thing he did.

As a set up for a FINAL film and to close out an entire saga we had:

-The Resistance with no military power worth a damn vs a First Order that still has more than enough to conquer the galaxy. That's a disparity that can't be solved in 1 movie without doing a "well just go along with it" gimmick like Abrahams did in ROS. The fact that The Resistance didn't need planets or nations to join them but individual people is hilariously absurd. But again, there's not a lot more to do there. Whoever followed TLJ either did an asspull like J.J or a 5-10 year time skip were they had to yada yada The Resistance building legit strength (that would've been way better than what we got imo).

-Kylo Ren is Supreme Leader but doesn't really have a clear ambition. So in a third movie he'd be doing what exactly? leading what? I don't believe there was any motivation that would've suffice him getting defeated or turned in 1 movie. And again, Abrahams chose the worst path possible. Of course there are a ton of cool ideas to build from Kylo's status after TLJ. But I don't see any of them being able to wrap up in just 1 movie.

-Rey is an uber powerful being that The Force kinda chose as a "vessel" to balance the disparity that the Dark Side had with Kylo and Snoke. She wants to continue her training as a Jedi...and do what? Whatever answer to that question would've been too rushed to not only develop but also finish in a third movie. Basically the same issue that Kylo had.


I've said it a ton of times. TLJ was like part 2 of a 5 part series. Not the middle portion of a trilogy.

 

[BillBanneker]

Ehh I disagree about them being in the same position. Poe learns not to be such a hothead and his first instincts aren't always the best instincts. For a guy used to being a lone gunner and is now expected to lead people, thats a big change. Kylo is definitely in a different position because like I said, he goes from wanting to be an underboss to wanting to be a boss and command his own destiny and not be beholden to his grandfather, or Snoke, or his uncle anymore. That's a different thing for him. And same with Rey. She ends up in a different place for the reasons I stated.

Poe's actions were partially based on lack of info from his commanders. He doesn't become this calm, calculating leader in TLJ.


Kylo's position doesn't really change. His behavior as a underling is the same as a boss, him killing Snoke is intentionally a function of RJ wanting to subvert the idea of Snoke being Palpatine Jr. The idea of him being a boss doesn't really resonate if his character doesn't really change, and he doesn't have his own vision of what the First Order should be. In TFA isn't one where there is a tension/conflict with Snoke, so the function of killing him in TLJ doesn't have much weight.

Rey just isn't a different place, RJ subverts the obvious of her training with Luke to become a Jedi ala ESB. She doesn't has her own ideas of what she should use her abilities for, she just goes back to the resistance.

Their character arc's don't introduce anything new, just subvert the film viewer's idea of what they thought would happen based on the previous film and trilogies.

Other folks are right though, JJ (and the disney heads) didn't give RJ much with TFA as far as original content though.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Poe's actions were partially based on lack of info from his commanders. He doesn't become this calm, calculating leader in TLJ.


Kylo's position doesn't really change. His behavior as a underling is the same as a boss, him killing Snoke is intentionally a function of RJ wanting to subvert the idea of Snoke being Palpatine Jr. The idea of him being a boss doesn't really resonate if his character doesn't really change, and he doesn't have his own vision of what the First Order should be. In TFA isn't one where there is a tension/conflict with Snoke, so the function of killing him in TLJ doesn't have much weight.

Rey just isn't a different place, RJ subverts the obvious of her training with Luke to become a Jedi ala ESB. She doesn't has her own ideas of what she should use her abilities for, she just goes back to the resistance.

Their character arc's don't introduce anything new, just subvert the film viewer's idea of what they thought would happen based on the previous film and trilogies.

Other folks are right though, JJ (and the disney heads) didn't give RJ much with TFA as far as original content though.

regardless of whether you agree with the decision or not, its still movement and still putting your characters in a different place. This is what im saying. You're saying "he's subverting stuff, which is true but that doesn't mean you don't advance through that subversion. All the characters you mentioned went through arcs and ended in different places. Whether you like where they ended or how they got there is a completely different story and subject and we can hash that out.

But yes, The Force Awakens, which is just a remix of new hope, isn't a great starting place. When your first story simply remixes the first movie, your second movie has to reinvent or just rehash empire strikes back, which no one would've wanted. I might not like the prequels that much, but they're at least three very different movies that have a cohesive narrative and one feeds into the other

 

[I AM WARHOL]

I wish RJ turned Rey to the darkside

So TLJ is good all of a sudden? Might I remind you that was the one with leia flying in outerspace

Let's also not forget "the holdo maneuver". It was beautiful but so damn ridiculous in the context of established rules. Reminds me of when DD let the night king be unaffected by dragon fire because it was never explicitly stated dragon fire would hurt h im m

 

[BillBanneker]

regardless of whether you agree with the decision or not, its still movement and still putting your characters in a different place. This is what im saying. You're saying "he's subverting stuff, which is true but that doesn't mean you don't advance through that subversion. All the characters you mentioned went through arcs and ended in different places. Whether you like where they ended or how they got there is a completely different story and subject and we can hash that out.

But yes, The Force Awakens, which is just a remix of new hope, isn't a great starting place. When your first story simply remixes the first movie, your second movie has to reinvent or just rehash empire strikes back, which no one would've wanted. I might not like the prequels that much, but they're at least three very different movies that have a cohesive narrative and one feeds into the other

This is just where we disagree, the thing is they didn't end up in different places. Kylo is still first order and the resistance (with rey poe finn) is still the resistance at the end. There's no progression of story, just a re-telling of the same characters arc(s). There's very little actual advancement because the characters weren't properly developed in the first place. There's no reaction or consequence to their choices by the end. That's why I keep reiterating that was just subversion on RJ part, there was very little "new" in terms of advancement of story and character overall (aside from Luke).