Sooo....no talk on Kiev's gradual descent into Mad Max beyond Thunderdome status??

Digga38

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I don't think you know what you're talking about. Most of Crimea's infrastructure is heavily dependent on the rest of Ukraine and Kiev basically subsidizes the region heavily. The amount of money it will cost to integrate them into the Russian mainland is going to be enormous and cannot be done overnight. We're all aware his fleet is stationed there and there is some oil and gas off the coast of Crimea. My main point is that these were things that Russia already had access to. If we're doing a cost benefit analysis of the situation, Putin has not gained anything of significance. Its not as if he didn't have a black sea fleet before and now he can station one there. His economy is getting weaker and weaker as a result of the situation, but he has to do something to keep the west from his borders. It just so happens that he has no leverage to keep the rest of Ukraine using military force. Where is the win here exactly?

And no one is talking about him caring for Russian citizens:aicmon:
then why is it so important for russia?

be objective not a fukkin shill...unless of course
 

Digga38

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over the long run putin lost because he will have a western oriented country right at his border, eastern ukraine is not going to separate

and over the long run, if Ukraine becomes more westernized russians themselves will start asking for more freedom which will make putin's rule more shaky

i think putin definitely won the battle of crimea but he lost the war for ukraine, ukraine is the real prize
lol yea ok....East Ukraine is bout to go to shyt....i bet if they wait it out they will come running back to USSR
 
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then why is it so important for russia?

be objective not a fukkin shill...unless of course
I already said Crimea is important for them because their fleet is stationed there. Of course they have to do what they can to stop the west from encroaching on their territory. That doesn't mean that what is going on is positive for them in the long run.

You haven't made even one remotely valid post in this entire thread. Don't expect to be taken seriously by anyone in life when, instead of actually defending your position, you just call people shills:camby::camby::camby:
 

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Defying Sanctions, Putin Declares Crimea Independent
By STEVEN LEE MYERS, PETER BAKER and ANDREW HIGGINSMARCH 17, 2014

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Cossacks installed a Russian flag and a Crimean flag on the roof of the City Hall building on Monday in Bakhchysarai, a city in central Crimea. CreditDan Kitwood/Getty Images
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    MOSCOW — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia signed a decree late Monday night formally recognizing Ukraine’s Crimea region as a “sovereign and independent state,” defying the United States and Europe just hours after they imposed their first financial sanctions since the crisis began and laying the groundwork for possible annexation.

    Mr. Putin’s decree came after the breakaway republic formally declared its independence and asked Russia to annex it in keeping with the results of a referendum conducted Sunday under the watch of Russian troops. The Kremlin announced that Mr. Putin would address both houses of the Russian Parliament on Tuesday, when many expect him to endorse annexation.

    The moves showed that Moscow had no intention of backing down in the face of Western sanctions over a dispute that has created a profound rift in East-West relations and threatens the security of borders created after the Soviet Union’s breakup in the early 1990s.

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    RELATED COVERAGEEven as the Kremlin announced Mr. Putin’s decree all the factions in Russia’s lower house of Parliament submitted draft legislation that welcomed Crimea’s referendum, reversing a decision made 60 years ago by the Soviet leader Nikita S. Khrushchev to put Crimea under the authority of what was then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The resolution pledged to “to contribute to the social and economic development of Crimea and the prosperity of its population, to maintain peace, calm and conciliation on this territory during the transition period.”

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    CreditGabriella Demczuk/The New York Times

    U.S. Imposes New Sanctions on Russia

    President Obama announced sanctions aimed at President Vladimir V. Putin’s inner circle.

    Earlier Monday the United States froze the assets and banned travel for 11 Russian and Ukrainian political figures, including top aides and allies of Mr. Putin as well as former President Viktor F. Yanukovych of Ukraine, whose ouster following pro-Western street protests last month prompted the Russian military incursion into Crimea. The European Union followed suit with sanctions against 21 Russians and Ukrainians, although none as prominent as those on the American list.

    “We’re making it clear there are consequences for these actions,” Mr. Obama said in a televised statement in the White House briefing room on Monday morning. “The international community will continue to stand together to oppose any violations of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

    He repeated that Russia can still defuse the conflict. “Going forward, we can calibrate our response based on whether Russia chooses to escalate or de-escalate the situation,” he said. “Now, I believe there is still a path to resolve this situation diplomatically.”

    Mr. Obama was sending Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. to Eastern Europe later Monday evening to meet with leaders of Poland, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia, NATO allies that feel especially nervous about Russian assertiveness. The president leaves for Europe next week on a previously scheduled trip that may be consumed with the Ukraine crisis.

    In a conference call to brief reporters Monday morning, administration officials said Mr. Obama has created a new set of sanctions that, while targeting a limited number of individuals at first, has a broader scope than any aimed at Moscow in decades.

    “These are by far the most comprehensive sanctions applied to Russia since the end of the Cold War — far and away so,” said one of the officials, who under the ground rules of the briefing was not permitted to be identified.

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    Vladislav Surkov, one of President Vladimir V. Putin’s most influential advisers, was sanctioned by the United States, in coordination with Europe.CreditNatalia Kolesnikova/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
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Among those penalized on Monday were Vladislav Surkov, for years one of Mr. Putin’s most influential advisers, known as the Kremlin’s “gray cardinal”; Sergei Glazyev, an economist who has been advising Mr. Putin on Ukraine; Valentina Matviyenko, chairman of the Federation Council, the upper house of Parliament; and Dmitry Rogozin, a deputy prime minister. No sanctions were placed on Mr. Putin.

Others named by the White House were Leonid Slutsky and Yelena Mizulina, members of the State Duma, the lower house of Parliament; and Andrey Klishas, a member of the Federation Council who wrote a bill to seize assets of Western individuals and assets in retaliation for any sanctions imposed on Russia.

The White House also sanctioned two Russian-supported figures who have taken power in Crimea — Sergei Aksyonov, the newly declared prime minister; and Vladimir Konstantinov, the newly declared speaker of its Parliament. In addition to Mr. Yanukovych, the Americans penalized Viktor Medvedchuk, head of a pro-Russian civil society group, Ukrainian Choice.

The Europeans likewise targeted Mr. Aksyonov, Mr. Konstantinov, Mr. Klishas and Mr. Slutsky but avoided going after figures in the Russian elite like Mr. Surkov, Mr. Glazyev, Ms. Matviyenko and Mr. Rogozin, because they were concerned about poking too directly at the Russian president in a way that would make it harder for him to back down later. Altogether, the European list targeted 10 Russian politicians, 7 pro-Russian Crimeans, 3 Russian military officers in Crimea and the former head of Ukraine’s Black Sea Fleet, who defected to Russia this month.

Asked whether the European Union had dented its credibility by failing to match tough words with strong actions, Radoslaw Sikorski, the Polish foreign minister, told journalists: “The U.S. is from Mars and Europe is from Venus. Get used to it.”

He added that there were “special reasons” for the differing approaches, noting that “Europe is closer and will therefore pay a bigger cost for sanctions against Russia.” He also pointed to Europe’s collective decision-making process. “In the United States, one man takes a decision on the basis of an executive order,” Mr. Sikorski said, “whereas in Europe for these measures to be legal, we need a consensus of 28 member states.”

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Mr. Putin's economic adviser on Ukraine, Sergei Glazyev, was among those targeted by the White House.CreditSergei Karpukhin/Reuters
Diplomats said some European countries wanted to include Dmitry Kiselyov, a Russian television anchor who warned on air of his country’s ability to “turn America into radioactive dust.” But his name was dropped amid objections from Finland and others that journalists should not be targeted, even those working for state-controlled organizations.

Catherine Ashton, the European Union’s foreign policy chief, denied that Europe was taking a softer approach than the United States. “I don’t believe this is anything to do with softer or harder approaches,” she said. European officials “work very closely – and are in constant touch – with our United States colleagues but they make their own decisions and we make ours.”

Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany said the sanctions decision was not made lightly. “We wanted talks and a diplomatic solution but the clear violation of international law yesterday with the so-called referendum meant we had to take this step and I am glad that Europe showed such unity,” she told reporters.

The sanctions came a day after a Moscow-supported referendum in Crimea in which local authorities claimed a 97 percent vote in favor of breaking off from Ukraine and rejoining Russia. The new Crimean government on Monday declared itself independent as it seeks annexation from Russia, which sent troops into the Ukrainian province after Mr. Yanukovych’s ouster.

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Mr. Obama told Mr. Putin in a telephone call on Sunday that the referendum “violates the Ukrainian Constitution and occurred under duress of Russian military intervention” and “would never be recognized by the United States and the international community.” He continued to stress, however, that “there remains a clear path for resolving this crisis diplomatically.”

European officials approved their own sanctions on Monday, targeting 21 individuals. Their list overlapped to some extent with the American list, according to Obama administration officials; however, the names will not be released until Tuesday.

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Dmitry Rogozin, a deputy prime minister in Russia, was sanctioned by the United States on Monday.CreditRaveendran/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
In taking his action on Monday, Mr. Obama signed a new executive order intended to broaden the sanctions authority he already approved. Aides said he was targeting three broad categories of people: Russian government officials, arms sector figures, and others deemed to be working on behalf of Russian senior officials, the latter called “Russian government cronies” by a senior American official.

The order means that any assets owned by the targeted Russians in the United States will be frozen and Americans will not be allowed to do business with them. If they want to transact in dollars, they will no longer be able to do so, officials said. And the American action will influence foreign banks and other institutions not to do business with these Russians, officials said.

The sanctions are the second round approved by Mr. Obama. The first round banned visas for nearly a dozen Russian and Ukrainian individuals but did not include financial measures.

Mr. Obama held off a more expansive target list on Monday to leave room for future action if necessary. “We have the ability to escalate our actions in response to Russian actions,” a senior administration official told reporters.

Some of those targeted on Monday are among the most prominent Russian politicians. Mr. Surkov, for instance, is considered the architect of Mr. Putin’s highly centralized political system, dubbed “sovereign democracy.” He was the deputy chief of staff until being pushed out in 2011 amid street protests against Mr. Putin’s decision to reassume the presidency from the prime ministership, but Mr. Surkov was brought back into the Kremlin last year, albeit to a less significant post.

Still, in Moscow, the initial listing was met with public derision and even mockery, though privately there appeared to be relief that the sanctions had not reached any of Russia’s major economic or banking figures, as many had feared. In one measure of the reaction, Russia’s battered stock markets rose sharply at the end of the day as the American and European announcements were made.

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Valentina Matviyenko, chairman of the Federation Council, the upper house of Parliament.CreditAlexander Demianchuk/Reuters
Before the sanctions were announced, the referendum in Crimea was greeted as a triumph, as senior lawmakers promised to move quickly to provide the legal basis for the peninsula to join Russia. The Kremlin announced that Mr. Putin would address both houses of Parliament on Tuesday, when he is expected to endorse the annexation, despite the broad international condemnation.

The highest ranking government official on the list, Mr. Rogozin, who oversees the defense industry, chided the American president as “Comrade Obama” and asked whether he had considered the fact that those on the list did not have property or assets abroad.

Mr. Klishas, chairman of the constitutional committee of the upper house of Parliament, which voted on March 1 to authorize the use of force in Ukraine, brushed aside the sanctions as well, saying they were “no tragedy for me.”

“I was quite happy with the company of people in which I found myself,” he told the Interfax news agency.

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Ms. Mizulina, who has gained prominence for her role in legislation banning adoptions by Americans and cracking down on pro-gay “propaganda” to minors, said her inclusion was “a revenge for my views.” In a statement sent by email, she also said neither she nor her family have property or accounts outside of Russia.

“I consider what has happened a rude violation of my rights and freedoms as a citizen and a politician,” she said.

American officials expect Moscow to retaliate.

Although the United States is not a large trading partner with Russia, a number of large American corporations are deeply involved in the Russian market, including ExxonMobil, Boeing, Ford and PepsiCo. Those businesses have been nervous about an escalation that would affect their representatives or operations in Russia.

American officials said they were braced for retribution but expressed confidence that they could do more harm to Russia than the other way around. “Russia stands a lot more to lose from political and economic isolation than the United States,” said the senior administration official. “The world is with us.”
 

Digga38

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I already said Crimea is important for them because their fleet is stationed there. Of course they have to do what they can to stop the west from encroaching on their territory. That doesn't mean that what is going on is positive for them in the long run.

You haven't made even one remotely valid post in this entire thread. Don't expect to be taken seriously by anyone in life when, instead of actually defending your position, you just call people shills:camby::camby::camby:
i dont have a position...its either fact or fiction....
 

Digga38

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struggle with facts, brehs
not really but ill let you tell it

Israel and the US are going to have to get their hands dirty...unsuccessful in Syria and now Ukraine
 
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