So @sccit is an open zionist on a black hip hop forum?

[Ish Gibor]

Are they black?

What do you think? What do sources say about Cush?

Almost, but not quite.

Jew : English :: Yid : Yiddish
Jews : English :: Yidn : Yiddish
Jewish : English :: Yiddish : Yiddish

Yiddish literally means Jewish.

Ok, I see. The first time you wrote about Yidn it was a confusing sentence.

Dark-skinned Jews have always been a minority among Jewry.

On what do you base this theory?

Yes. Being a Semite is not bound by complexion.

Ok, that is what I wanted to know.

"The majority of NRY haplotypes in Soqotra belong to haplogroup J (85.7%)“
~Viktor Černý Out of Arabia, The Settlement of Island Soqotra as Revealed by Mitochondrial and Y Chromosome Genetic Diversity

There were two centers of Torah learning in the Jewish world two millennia ago, Bavel (Babylon; Iraq) and Eretz Yisroel (Yerusholoyim). Due to historical developments of the Roman and later Byzantine persecutions of the Jewish People in the Land of Israel, the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel dwindled over a period of centuries (and the Torah academies, the yeshivos, also therefore became smaller and less significant). However, during that same period of time in Bavel the Jews lived for the most part under peaceful conditions. They enjoyed an autonomous rule under the 'Reish Galusa' or 'Head of the Exile', the Exilarch. The Jews of Bavel had many great yeshivos which only increased in size and in strength and in wisdom, and this is at a time when the Romans, the Byzantines, and later the Moslem conquests of the Land of Israel caused, to a large extent, the destruction and devastation of the Land of Israel and the expulsion of the Jewish inhabitants. At the same time in Bavel (which was never controlled by the Romans or the Byzantines) the Jews under the Moslem Caliphate were able to live their lives as Jews and Torah study flourished. As a result of this historical reality, the center of gravity in the Jewish world and the Torah world naturally shifted from the Land of Israel to Bavel (Babylon). For this reason, the Talmud Bavli became the standard text for the Jewish People. (Talmud Yerushalmi was interrupted c. 350 CE when the Romans suppressed Jewish scholarship in the Land of Israel resulting in most of the Talmudic scholars fleeing to Bavel where the Talmud was later finalized.)

The Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) are inseparable. Hashem dictated, Moshe wrote; this is the Torah, the written tradition. Hashem taught, Moshe transmitted; this is the oral tradition preserved in the Talmud. The Written Law cannot be kept without the Oral Law. The Talmud explains HOW to do what Torah tells us to do. The Torah gives us rules, the Talmud tells us the parameters. The basic blueprint is the Torah (Written) and the details are the Talmud (Oral). The Oral Torah is to the Written Torah, what a picture is to words. Both were given to Moshe by Hashem at Har Sinai. In the Torah, wherever you find the Hebrew word for Torah in its plural form, it is always accompanied by the phrase 'Baino uVain Bnai Yisroel', that the Torahs are only between Hashem and the Jewish People. The Oral Law is what distinguishes the Jews from everyone else; it is the basis of Hashem's covenant with the Jewish People. The only way to protect the integrity of the Jewish People as a distinguished collective is by concealing the majority of the information from the nations. This was done through the Oral Law, also known as the Oral Torah. Hashem even says He didn't give all the details in the Written Torah for this very reason (lest we be counted the same as the nations): "Echtov loy rubay torasi k'moi zor nechshovu." He makes it clear that the greater part of the Torah was not written. There are numerous examples in the Tenach itself where the prophets chasten the Jewish People for a violation of the Oral Law. We can see from the earliest times of the prophets that they followed the Oral Law.

The Oral Law (Talmud) that explains the details of the Written Law (Torah) was written down finally in Mishnaic Hebrew that is very Aramaic-y (Mishnah) and Aramaic that is very Hebrew-y (Gemoro) following the destruction of the Second Temple and the subsequent fall of Bethar which resulted in the final exile of the Jews. The writing down of the once orally transmitted tradition was born out of distress and destruction and served as a means to keep the tradition sealed within the nation in spite of the far-flung Diasporic scattering. Now to have written down the Oral Law was forbidden; it was oral, meant to be transmitted from Sage to student, generation to generation, from the time it was given to Moshe by Hashem at Sinai. But Rebbi Yehuda HaNasi, a direct descendant from the House of Dovid, and in charge of passing on the Oral Law to the next generation, saw that we were being scattered throughout the whole world and if we don't preserve this now, we are going to lose it (resulting in the inability to keep the Torah), so he chose to write it down and it was called the Mishnah. Comes Rov Ashi, Ravina and their disciples, who compiled the Gemoro, the Talmud. Rebbi Hanasi, Rov Ashi and Ravina were all direct-line recipients of the Oral Law that was passed down from Moshe Rabeinu at Sinai. This is the Oral Torah, the Talmud. Since the Oral Torah has been kept within the Jewish nation, to understand the details and parameters regarding all the various mitzvois, one would require the assistance of a learned Jew, a rov. Thus, the greater part of the Torah must, and will, remain an oral tradition.

Ok, thanks. Are you saying that the oral tradition is based on proto-Afoasiatic cultures?

There are some practices (e.g., prayer liturgy) found only in Yerushalmi, and others only in Bavli, thus we use both. In terms of differences between the Talmudim, there are the extensive works "אמרי במערבא" by הרב אחיקם קשת and "מאור עינים" by מנחם מנדל הוכשטין (the latter of whom cites רבי שלמה לוריא) which go into great detail. Neither were published in English and I'm not going to post the translations here, but if you can read Hebrew you will find what you are looking for.

Do you agree with this here?

Hebrew ceased to be an everyday spoken language somewhere between 200 and 400 CE, declining since the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt.[2][12][note 2] Aramaic and, to a lesser extent,
Greek were already in use as international languages, especially among elites and immigrants.[14]

Hebrew survived into the medieval period as the language of Jewish liturgy, rabbinic literature, intra-Jewish commerce and poetry. With the rise of Zionism in the 19th century

Hebrew language - Wikipedia

The medieval designation of the Bohemian lands as 'C'na'an' is not about the Slavs being his literal offspring; rather, it is about their straits, or difficulties (their enslavement), resembling that of C'na'an's. It was C'na'an who was cursed to be a slave, not his uncle Yafes.

I know that, but in terms of geographic location, linguistics and ethnicity, how could they be conflated with Canaan if they aren't from Ham? I have no idea how they got into the storyline here? When during the medieval millions of Africans were enslaved by Arabs for over a thousand years.

 

[Goat poster]

The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

The Thirteenth Tribe - Wikipedia

2 books written by Non-Zionist Jews that everyone should read.

 

[Koichos]

What do you think?

It was a rhetorical question.

What do sources say about Cush?

Black. כוש means Ethiopia but can refer generally to black Africa. The Targum on Divray HaYomim B 21:16 renders כושים (Ethiopians) as אפריקאי (African). And in the Talmud כושי is used to refer to any black person (or to someone with a black complexion) regardless of what country he was from. Hence the reason it can also be seen used for India: Rash"i, commentating on a gemoro in maseches Brochos, renders Hindevo'ai (India) as Kushiyim (Ethiopians). Moreover, in maseches Kiddushin he identifies Hindevo'ah (India) with Eretz Kushi (the land of the Ethiopian); and in maseches Yuma Hindevoyin (India) and Hindevo'ai (India) are similarly identified with Eretz Kush (the land of Ethiopia). Targum Yonoson on Yeshayohu 11:11 and Tziphanyoh 3:10 renders Kush (Ethiopia) as Hodu (India); and on Yirmeyohu 13:23 Kushi (Ethiopian) is rendered as Hindevo'ah (India). Ethiopia and India were considered adjacent on account of their black complexion as well as the view in ancient geography that the two were joined to the east (כוש does not imply that it corresponds to the borders of modern-day Ethiopia. Perhaps both India and a region of Ethiopia were known by the same name [Hindevo in Aramaic, Hodu in Hebrew]). Generally, though, both in Chaza"l's time and ours, כושי simply refers to a black person whether Ethiopian or not.

Ok, thanks. Are you saying that the oral tradition is based on proto-Afoasiatic cultures?

The oral tradition is the orally transmitted legal system from Moshe Rabeinu and the neviyim. It is Jewish culture, its roots stemming from Z'man Masan Torasainu (the time of the giving of our Torah) as well as the genesis and coalescence of Jewry in Eretz Yisroel.

Do you agree with this here?


Hebrew language - Wikipedia

Biblical Hebrew ceased among Jewry as a spoken tongue primarily with the end of the biblical period following the Jews' return from golus Bavli. Mishnaic Hebrew, the Hebrew of Chaza"l (representing the written and spoken Hebrew of their time), is somewhat different. Chaza"l therefore speak of לשון מקרא or 'loshon mikra' (Language of Tenach), Biblical Hebrew; and לשון חכמים or 'loshon chochumim' (Language of Sages), Mishnaic Hebrew. In loshon chochumim there is a tendency to leave off the "ית-" suffix at the end of a fraction: for example, שלישית (one third) in loshon mikra becomes שליש in loshon chochumim; רביעית (one fourth) becomes רביע, and so on. Perhaps this is due to the fact that the forms with "ית-" are somewhat ambiguous: רביעית can mean "[fem.] fourth [in a series]" or "one fourth."

We can see the shift from Hebrew to Aramaic (or perhaps back to Aramaic, as Shimon Bar Kochba re-instituted Hebrew as the official language) in the latter half of the Talmud. In both the Yerushalmi and Bavli, the Mishnayos are written in Hebrew, but the Gemoros are written in Aramaic. The reason Jews stopped speaking Hebrew as an everyday language is because it wasn't b'chavodig (respectable) to use it for ovdey chul (what is done on the weekday)—things that are common during the week but have no connection to Shabbes or what it is meant for and therefore avoided so we can keep the Shabbes holy and separate. Hebrew continued to be used for Torah study, learning, and as a liturgical and literary language so as not to dilute Loshon Hakoidesh, the Holy Tongue, the language of Torah.

I know that, but in terms of geographic location, linguistics and ethnicity, how could they be conflated with Canaan if they aren't from Ham? I have no idea how they got into the storyline here? When during the medieval millions of Africans were enslaved by Arabs for over a thousand years.

Well, it was never about literal descendance to begin with. It was about the newly arrived Jews witnessing the Slavs in the Bohemian lands selling their own children into bondage, evoking the C'na'an of Torah. See Binyomin ben Yonah mi'Teluda's account on the matter in Masa'os Binyomin, the last paragraph on page 80. (Refer also to pp. 79 for Ashkenaz and 81 for Tzorfas.) The ancient Jewish practice of designating areas with biblical names goes back to the days of yore, and more often than not were mere allusions to stories from Torah (not literal descendance or geographic location) as is the case here. Bear in mind that the Jews who designated the territory of Bohemia and Moravia as 'C'na'a'n' bore witness to the Slavic trade first hand as they resided in these lands–Xian lands not Arab lands. Thus the Bohemian lands were called 'C'na'an' on account of such treatment that was seemingly predestined, a retrojection into the biblical text of C'na'an's fated servitude. It was a medieval appellation denoting the areas east of the Elbe River where the Jews dwelled.

 

[Ish Gibor]

It was a rhetorical question.

No, I want to know your opinion.

Black. כוש means Ethiopia but can refer generally to black Africa. The Targum on Divray HaYomim B 21:16 renders כושים (Ethiopians) as אפריקאי (African). And in the Talmud כושי is used to refer to any black person (or to someone with a black complexion) regardless of what country he was from. Hence the reason it can also be seen used for India: Rash"i, commentating on a gemoro in maseches Brochos, renders Hindevo'ai (India) as Kushiyim (Ethiopians). Moreover, in maseches Kiddushin he identifies Hindevo'ah (India) with Eretz Kushi (the land of the Ethiopian); and in maseches Yuma Hindevoyin (India) and Hindevo'ai (India) are similarly identified with Eretz Kush (the land of Ethiopia). Targum Yonoson on Yeshayohu 11:11 and Tziphanyoh 3:10 renders Kush (Ethiopia) as Hodu (India); and on Yirmeyohu 13:23 Kushi (Ethiopian) is rendered as Hindevo'ah (India). Ethiopia and India were considered adjacent on account of their black complexion as well as the view in ancient geography that the two were joined to the east (כוש does not imply that it corresponds to the borders of modern-day Ethiopia. Perhaps both India and a region of Ethiopia were known by the same name [Hindevo in Aramaic, Hodu in Hebrew]). Generally, though, both in Chaza"l's time and ours, כושי simply refers to a black person whether Ethiopian or not.

We know ancient Africa from the Sahara and onwards was called Ethiopia (Cush). This is different from the modern day country Ethiopia. And yes, to ancient Greeks East India was known as Hindu Kush. I don't know if the ancient Hebrews knew anything about that part of the world. But to claim that East India was referred to the Cush as is in the Torah, that's irrational, since India linguistically and culturally doesn't form a pattern with the Afroasiatic phylum. Simply put. They do not have this history. Africa has proto-Afroasiatic languages and cultures, the most Afroasiatic and Semitic languages, whereas East India has not at all. It would make sense unless Nubia is in East India, since Nubia is Cush. If East India is Cush, how does it explain Mizraim, the Nile etc.? Unless Mizraim is not the place being claimed now.

וַתְּדַבֵּ֨ר מִרְיָ֤ם וְאַהֲרֹן֙ בְּמֹשֶׁ֔ה עַל־אֹד֛וֹת הָאִשָּׁ֥ה הַכֻּשִׁ֖ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר לָקָ֑ח כִּֽי־אִשָּׁ֥ה כֻשִׁ֖ית לָקָֽח׃

Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushyte woman he had married: “He married a Cushyte woman!”

Numbers 12:1

וּבְנֵ֖י חָ֑ם כּ֥וּשׁ וּמִצְרַ֖יִם וּפ֥וּט וּכְנָֽעַן׃

The descendants of Ham: Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.

Genesis 10:6

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוָ֔ה כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר הָלַ֛ךְ עַבְדִּ֥י יְשַׁעְיָ֖הוּ עָר֣וֹם וְיָחֵ֑ף שָׁלֹ֤שׁ שָׁנִים֙ א֣וֹת וּמוֹפֵ֔ת עַל־מִצְרַ֖יִם וְעַל־כּֽוּשׁ׃

And now the LORD said, “It is a sign and a portent for Egypt and Nubia. Just as My servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot for three years,

Isaiah 20:3

"The earliest certain link with Egypt is 664 B.C., the date of the Assyrian sack of the Egyptian capital at Thebes. Although it is often possible to locate earlier events quite precisely relative to each other, neither surviving contemporary documents nor scientific dating methods such as carbon 14, dendrochronology, thermoluminescence, and archaeoastronomy are able to provide the required accuracy to fix these events absolutely in time.”

Metmuseum.org

Jeremiah 13:23

Zephaniah 3:10

Chronicles 21:17

"the Indian subcontinent, central Asia south of the Himalayas," formerly sometimes used generally for "Asia;" since 1947 specifically in reference to the Republic of India, Old English India, Indea, from Latin India, from Greek India "region of the Indus River," later used of the region beyond it, from Indos "Indus River," also "an Indian," from Old Persian Hindu, the name for the province of Sind, from Sanskrit sindhu "river."

The more common Middle English form was Ynde or Inde, from Old French (hence Indies). The form India began to prevail again in English from 16c., perhaps under Spanish or Portuguese influence.

india | Origin and meaning of the name india by Online Etymology Dictionary

The oral tradition is the orally transmitted legal system from Moshe Rabeinu and the neviyim. It is Jewish culture, its roots stemming from Z'man Masan Torasainu (the time of the giving of our Torah) as well as the genesis and coalescence of Jewry in Eretz Yisroel.

Let me put it this way. What was the language before Hebrew that gave rise to the interpretation of Hebrew.

Biblical Hebrew ceased among Jewry as a spoken tongue primarily with the end of the biblical period following the Jews' return from golus Bavli. Mishnaic Hebrew, the Hebrew of Chaza"l (representing the written and spoken Hebrew of their time), is somewhat different. Chaza"l therefore speak of לשון מקרא or 'loshon mikra' (Language of Tenach), Biblical Hebrew; and לשון חכמים or 'loshon chochumim' (Language of Sages), Mishnaic Hebrew. In loshon chochumim there is a tendency to leave off the "ית-" suffix at the end of a fraction: for example, שלישית (one third) in loshon mikra becomes שליש in loshon chochumim; רביעית (one fourth) becomes רביע, and so on. Perhaps this is due to the fact that the forms with "ית-" are somewhat ambiguous: רביעית can mean "[fem.] fourth [in a series]" or "one fourth."

What do you mean by "the end of the biblical period"? Why did they stop speaking (classical) Hebrew, and what are the "somewhat" differences?

We can see the shift from Hebrew to Aramaic (or perhaps back to Aramaic, as Shimon Bar Kochba re-instituted Hebrew as the official language) in the latter half of the Talmud. In both the Yerushalmi and Bavli, the Mishnayos are written in Hebrew, but the Gemoros are written in Aramaic. The reason Jews stopped speaking Hebrew as an everyday language is because it wasn't b'chavodig (respectable) to use it for ovdey chul (what is done on the weekday)—things that are common during the week but have no connection to Shabbes or what it is meant for and therefore avoided so we can keep the Shabbes holy and separate. Hebrew continued to be used for Torah study, learning, and as a liturgical and literary language so as not to dilute Loshon Hakoidesh, the Holy Tongue, the language of Torah.

It's indeed interesting that both language were used as a Lingua Franca. Something extraordinary must have happened during that time.

Well, it was never about literal descendance to begin with. It was about the newly arrived Jews witnessing the Slavs in the Bohemian lands selling their own children into bondage, evoking the C'na'an of Torah. See Binyomin ben Yonah mi'Teluda's account on the matter in Masa'os Binyomin, the last paragraph on page 80. (Refer also to pp. 79 for Ashkenaz and 81 for Tzorfas.) The ancient Jewish practice of designating areas with biblical names goes back to the days of yore, and more often than not were mere allusions to stories from Torah (not literal descendance or geographic location) as is the case here. Bear in mind that the Jews who designated the territory of Bohemia and Moravia as 'C'na'a'n' bore witness to the Slavic trade first hand as they resided in these lands–Xian lands not Arab lands. Thus the Bohemian lands were called 'C'na'an' on account of such treatment that was seemingly predestined, a retrojection into the biblical text of C'na'an's fated servitude. It was a medieval appellation denoting the areas east of the Elbe River where the Jews dwelled.

I am confused here. Are you saying that taken into bondage is synonyms with the C'na'an?

What do you mean by the "lands–Xian"?

Lastly, how far did the Hebrew topology reach and what lands did the ancient Hebrews know? How far did this topological knowledge stretch globally?

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia

The Thirteenth Tribe - Wikipedia

2 books written by Non-Zionist Jews that everyone should read.

Those are great works of comedic fiction.​

 

[Ish Gibor]

Those are great works of comedic fiction.​

What do you mean by comedic fiction? I haven't read the books, but I did see a few lectures by Shlomo Sand. What he stated is in correlation with what genetic studies show pertaining the geographic location.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

What do you mean by comedic fiction?

I mean both of those are about as funny and fictional towards Jews as 'The Bell Curve' is towards Black people.​

 

[Goat poster]

I mean both of those are about as funny and fictional towards Jews as 'The Bell Jar' is towards Black people.​

Are you referring to Sylvia Plath book?

I don’t understand how that in any way relates to Black people?

Both the books in reference were written by Jewish people.

if you don’t agree that’s fine, but I don’t get that comparison at all.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

if you don’t agree that’s fine, but I don’t get that comparison at all.

Read the criticisms of both and it'll become apparent.​

 

[Ish Gibor]

I mean both of those are about as funny and fictional towards Jews as 'The Bell Jar' is towards Black people.​

“The Bell Jar”?

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

“The Bell Jar”?

Meant 'The Bell Curve'.​

​

 

[Ish Gibor]

Meant 'The Bell Curve'.​

​

I don't understand what the "The Bell Curve'" and what those books have to do with one another. The authors of the 'The Bell Curve' are Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein. "The Bell Curve" is in a long tradition of the Hamitic doctrine going back almost 1.600 years, if not longer.

I mean we are talking about "Trans Sahara slavery and Trans Atlantic slavery" and all the mistreatment in between, like the "Scramble for Africa", "Jim Crow", Medical Apartheid, The Apartheid Regime of South Africa etc. "The Bell Curve" was not the first and was not the last, there are dozens of books like that. "The Bell Curve" helped to facilitated mass incarceration of Black males and it also helped to defund Black schools and put Black people in poor housing and leave Black people in poor job conditions.

 

[Goat poster]

Meant 'The Bell Curve'.​

​

either way, I still don’t think the comparison is the same.

the books I listed were written by Jewish people (although not in line with traditional modern Jewish/Zionist thought)

the bell curve was written by two white men, so the racist biased is almost to be expected

 

[Ish Gibor]

either way, I still don’t think the comparison is the same.

the books I listed were written by Jewish people (although not in line with traditional modern Jewish/Zionist thought)

the bell curve was written by two white men, so the racist biased is almost to be expected

More about the authors of the "bell curve"

Richard Herrnstein - Wikipedia

Charles Murray (political scientist) - Wikipedia

Spoiler: Sit tight… in this rollercoaster.

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I don't understand what the "The Bell Curve'" and what those books have to do with one another.

That's because you don't look at them like I do.​