So @sccit is an open zionist on a black hip hop forum?

[ℒℴѵℯJay ELECTUA]

Jews run it, nikkas run around in it - Razzy Kassy

 

[Koichos]

So the word schvartze was never a thing?

Okay, you are familiar with the Ashkenazic term. But can you tell me its Sefardic equivalent and explain why the former is worse? This also completely ignores the context of the word and how it is used. (Is the person a Yiddish speaker? Is there unnecessary emphasis being stressed? Is there a negative modifier preceding the word?) At its most basic level it refers to a black person, or something that is black; nothing more, nothing less. Now what someone might do with it is a whole 'nother story, but it is not derogatory in and of itself, and does not necessarily refer to a person or a literal color. It is similar to the way 'black' can be used in English: a person, a color, a mood. There are a plethora of Yiddish proverbs and sayings which encompass the latter two: De tavt iz nisht azoi shvartz vee men mult em, "The Satan is not as black as he is made to be" (one is not as evil as he is believed to be); Ah shvartza hin ken oukh laign ah vas ai, "A black hen can lay a white egg, too" (a person can demonstrate deeds that go against everyone's expectations); Ba nokht zeinen ala shuf shvartz, "By night, all sheep are black" (in bed, appearances don't matter – hameivin yavin). There is also an ancient minhag among Ashkenazim known as a 'shvartza khasina' (black wedding) – a graveside chuppah in which the chuppah is held graveside in a Jewish cemetery between two yasomim (orphans) as a seguloh (protection) during a pandemic or epidemic with the intention of arousing Hashem's rochmones (mercy) in order to avert pestilence and mageifoh (plague). There are records of Teimanim doing this as well.

It was you who posted data on the geographical origin. It clearly shows Hg R1a as the oldest strain in Iran bottleneck. The timing was also intriguing. I am not saying it makes them less Jahudi. But it's ironic how all pieces fall in place with the Neo-Assyrians. I'd never expected this.

Birthdate: circa -2700
Birthplace: BC. Eurasian Steppe
(Mr. R1a-F1345 Founder)

(Asya Pereltsvaig., Jun 10, 2016)

The above explains the Iranian findings of R1a, which is no problem. It is what it is.

Overall, haplogroup R1a accounts for less than 10% of the Ashkenazi Jewish male population. Analyses of the R1a-M582 cluster which accounts for roughly 8% of the Ashkenazi Jewish male population suggest that the R1a-M582 progenitor lived in Iran due to the fact that two of its three clusters include men with origins in that area. It has been established that the phylogenetic origin of the R1a-M582 lineage is of Middle Eastern-Levantine origin, but not necessarily that its origin is Iran, specifically. Elhaik et al. speak of 'Irano-Turkic-Slavic' Jews but do not discuss from where they came. One cannot ignore the historical fact that a substantial number of Jews remained in Iran and the surrounding areas following the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles. In fact, the majority of Jews did NOT return to Eretz Yisroel. The claim is that these Jews were ethnic or autochthonous Iranian, Turkic, or Slavic peoples who were later Judaized, but it's possible that they were direct descendants of these Jewish exiles who adopted the lingua franca, reminiscent of Jewish history in exile.

Reexamination of halplogroup R1a1 which traces its geographical origins to the Middle East-Levant (rather than Europe) is similar to mtDNA K1a1b1a which was originally purported to be an ancient European subclade (Costa et al., 2013). It is worthwhile repeating why Behar et al. 2006 concluded that these haplogroups most likely originated in the Levant: the age of these maternal lineages (which are restricted to Jewish populations) exceeds 2,000 years. Costa et al. 2013 admit the same: "K1a1b1a accounts for 63% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~20% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and dates to ~4.4 ka with maximum likelihood." Assuming that these specific haplogroups had originated in Europe prior to the establishment of the Ashkenazi Jewish community, one would expect to find other non-Jewish individuals carrying ancient versions of these maternal lineages. But the authors themselves admit that the individuals in Europe carrying these lineages nest within the Ashkenazi cluster and the gene flow is from the Ashkenazi community outwards rather than inwards.

Yacobi and Bedford, 2016 come to the same conclusion as Behar et al., 2006, that when considering the age of the haplogroup, its presence among the Sefardim and its apparent absence in non-Jewish populations, a Levantine origin is far more likely for K1a1b1a than a European one: "For a specific example, consider the often discussed haplogroups K1a1b1a and K1a1b1a1 among Ashkenazi Jews. Costa and colleagues (2013) used maximum likelihood to estimate that K1a1b1a dates to approximately 4,400 YBP and K1a1b1a1 to 2,300 YBP. To place these results in their historical perspective, 2,300 YBP predates the dispersal of the Jewish population from the Levant to Europe, and 4,400 YBP predates by more than 1,000 years the earliest documented mention of the name "Israel" in historical record (the Merneptah Stele, dated to 1209 BC)." There is another paper (Bedford, 2018) which notes that what is believed to be a quintessential Ashkenazi haplotype, K1a1b1a, which encompasses ~62% of the Ashkenazi K mtDNAs, may actually be Sefardic in origin.

Yes, the purpose is to trace back the timing of the Tenach, Talmud and the Assyrian dialects. They lived amongst neighboring populations like Gutians, Sumerians, Lullubians, Khurrites, Hittites etc. in Mesopotamia, who all adopted Assyrian. My hypothesis is that Assyrian dialects emerged there as a lingua franca. The region was know for brutal warmongering, so I think some of the dialects died out along with the people, while others survived.

The Aramaic that appears in ancient Jewish literature is more Babylonian than anything. The dominant dialect of Jewish Aramaic is Middle Aramaic spoken with a Babylonian dialect; however, its origins seem to be in Eretz Yisroel. The Targumim are essentially Eastern Aramaic which demonstrate a Western Aramaic foundation. Talmud Bavli is Eastern Aramaic, where Talmud Yerushalmi is Western Aramaic. The biblical Aramaic that is found in Tenach (Daniyel, Ezra) is a bit different, but Babylonian nonetheless. Jews had not learned Aramaic in Eretz Yisroel, but they had to learn it in exile since it was the language of their Babylonian captors. The parts of Tenach which were composed in biblical Aramaic were written in that language as a result of the Babylonian exile. Interestingly, Teimanim have a unique minhag of counting the days of 'Sefiras Ha'Omer' ('Counting of the Omer' – the 49 days between Pesach and Shavuos) in Aramaic as opposed to Hebrew, since they preserved the ancient Babylonian custom where the lingua franca of most people was Aramaic.

 

[Ish Gibor]

Okay, you are familiar with the Ashkenazic term. But can you tell me its Sefardic equivalent and explain why the former is worse? This also completely ignores the context of the word and how it is used. (Is the person a Yiddish speaker? Is there unnecessary emphasis being stressed? Is there a negative modifier preceding the word?) At its most basic level it refers to a black person, or something that is black; nothing more, nothing less. Now what someone might do with it is a whole 'nother story, but it is not derogatory in and of itself, and does not necessarily refer to a person or a literal color. It is similar to the way 'black' can be used in English: a person, a color, a mood. There are a plethora of Yiddish proverbs and sayings which encompass the latter two: De tavt iz nisht azoi shvartz vee men mult em, "The Satan is not as black as he is made to be" (one is not as evil as he is believed to be); Ah shvartza hin ken oukh laign ah vas ai, "A black hen can lay a white egg, too" (a person can demonstrate deeds that go against everyone's expectations); Ba nokht zeinen ala shuf shvartz, "By night, all sheep are black" (in bed, appearances don't matter – hameivin yavin). There is also an ancient minhag among Ashkenazim known as a 'shvartza khasina' (black wedding) – a graveside chuppah in which the chuppah is held graveside in a Jewish cemetery between two yasomim (orphans) as a seguloh (protection) during a pandemic or epidemic with the intention of arousing Hashem's rochmones (mercy) in order to avert pestilence and mageifoh (plague). There are records of Teimanim doing this as well.

I understand German. And I always have seen the pattered of Yiddish with German, before I understood linguistics. I know the word has been used as a slur. We can sit here going back-and-forth, but it is what it is. No need to look for excuses.

schvartze

"black person" (somewhat derogatory), 1961, from Yiddish, from schvarts "black" (see swarthy). Perhaps originally a code word to refer to black servants when they were within earshot, as Ger. cognate Schwarze apparently was in the mid-19c.:

In Baltimore in the 80s of the last century, the German-speaking householders, when they had occasion to speak of Negro servants in their presence, called them die Blaue (blues). In the 70s die Schwartze (blacks) had been used, but it was believed that the Negroes had fathomed it. [H.L. Mencken, "The American Language," Supplement I, 1945]

schvartze | Origin and meaning of schvartze by Online Etymology Dictionary

swarthy
1580s, unexplained alteration of swarty (1570s), from swart + -y (2).

swarthy | Origin and meaning of swarthy by Online Etymology Dictionary

“When [my grandmother] was in a nursing home at the end of her life, she’d say, ‘everyone who works here is a shvartze, they’ll steal from you.’ ”“Schvartze is proxy for ******… anyone who says otherwise is delusional, lying or incredibly naïve,” an Orthodox friend told me. “If it means black then why does no one ever refer to schvartzer shoes when talking about black shoes, why does the black hat community, which sometimes refers to itself as the black community, never call itself the schvartzercommunity — because the use of the word within the frum community is only as a substitute for ******.” “Cringe. Old racists in Brooklyn,” another Twitter follower said.

No More Jewish N-Word

Overall, haplogroup R1a accounts for less than 10% of the Ashkenazi Jewish male population. Analyses of the R1a-M582 cluster which accounts for roughly 8% of the Ashkenazi Jewish male population suggest that the R1a-M582 progenitor lived in Iran due to the fact that two of its three clusters include men with origins in that area. It has been established that the phylogenetic origin of the R1a-M582 lineage is of Middle Eastern-Levantine origin, but not necessarily that its origin is Iran, specifically. Elhaik et al. speak of 'Irano-Turkic-Slavic' Jews but do not discuss from where they came. One cannot ignore the historical fact that a substantial number of Jews remained in Iran and the surrounding areas following the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles. In fact, the majority of Jews did NOT return to Eretz Yisroel. The claim is that these Jews were ethnic or autochthonous Iranian, Turkic, or Slavic peoples who were later Judaized, but it's possible that they were direct descendants of these Jewish exiles who adopted the lingua franca, reminiscent of Jewish history in exile.

The point is that R1a-F1345 is a specific founder, which is from the Eurasian Steppe region, Central Asia, South Asia and Southwest Asia.

The old paper 2013 by (Behar et al.,) said that “The most common Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosomal types of European origin are R1a1 and R1b with frequencies of 7.5 and 10 %, respectively.“

'A follow up study, summarizing information from whole Y chromosome sequencing, focused specifically on this Ashkenazi Levite lineage and confirmed that that 65% of the 97 randomly assembled Ashkenazi Levites carried haplogroup R1a-M19820. Strikingly, the better resolved whole Y chromosome based phylogeny of haplogroup R1a, showed that 100% of these samples could be reassigned to the refined haplogroup R1a-M582. This distinctive R1a-M582 lineage was found, other than in Ashkenazi Jews, among 15.7% males self-affiliating as non-Ashkenazi Levites and, importantly, at low frequencies only in the Middle East, consistent with this location as its ancestral origin."

(Doron M. Behar et al., 2017)

Reexamination of halplogroup R1a1 which traces its geographical origins to the Middle East-Levant (rather than Europe) is similar to mtDNA K1a1b1a which was originally purported to be an ancient European subclade (Costa et al., 2013). It is worthwhile repeating why Behar et al. 2006 concluded that these haplogroups most likely originated in the Levant: the age of these maternal lineages (which are restricted to Jewish populations) exceeds 2,000 years. Costa et al. 2013 admit the same: "K1a1b1a accounts for 63% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~20% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and dates to ~4.4 ka with maximum likelihood." Assuming that these specific haplogroups had originated in Europe prior to the establishment of the Ashkenazi Jewish community, one would expect to find other non-Jewish individuals carrying ancient versions of these maternal lineages. But the authors themselves admit that the individuals in Europe carrying these lineages nest within the Ashkenazi cluster and the gene flow is from the Ashkenazi community outwards rather than inwards.

Many papers say different things. There is somewhat a correlation in that overall they refer to the same origin, which is Eurasian Steppe region, Eurasian Steppe region, Central Asia, South Asia and Southwest Asia. This is the Ashkenazi point of origin. All the typifying haplotypes have a commonalty with these regions.

"The phylogeny of haplogroup R1b-M269 shows the presence of this haplogroup in various Jewish communities. The Ashkenazi samples clustered primarily with European R1b samples or created recently forming clusters. This pattern might be compatible with repeated introgression of non-Jewish European R1b Y chromosomes into the Ashkenazi Jewish population (Supplemental Figure S7)."

(Doron M. Behar et al., 2017)

Yacobi and Bedford, 2016 come to the same conclusion as Behar et al., 2006, that when considering the age of the haplogroup, its presence among the Sefardim and its apparent absence in non-Jewish populations, a Levantine origin is far more likely for K1a1b1a than a European one: "For a specific example, consider the often discussed haplogroups K1a1b1a and K1a1b1a1 among Ashkenazi Jews. Costa and colleagues (2013) used maximum likelihood to estimate that K1a1b1a dates to approximately 4,400 YBP and K1a1b1a1 to 2,300 YBP. To place these results in their historical perspective, 2,300 YBP predates the dispersal of the Jewish population from the Levant to Europe, and 4,400 YBP predates by more than 1,000 years the earliest documented mention of the name "Israel" in historical record (the Merneptah Stele, dated to 1209 BC)." There is another paper (Bedford, 2018) which notes that what is believed to be a quintessential Ashkenazi haplotype, K1a1b1a, which encompasses ~62% of the Ashkenazi K mtDNAs, may actually be Sefardic in origin.

(Yacobi and Bedford et al., 2016)

As they estimate the parent clade K1a1b1 to be over 10K years old, in the interim ~6,000 years between the appearance of K1a1b1 and the appearance of K1a1b1a, the maternal lineage could have migrated to and from the Levant on numerous occasions (in a manner similar to the movement pattern of H7c1). As noted earlier, prior to the Arab conquest in the 7th century CE the Western and Eastern sides of the Mediterranean basin were as well, if not better, connected to each other than the Western Med-iterranean was to parts of Northwestern Europe. When considering the age of the haplogroup, its presence (however limited) among Sephardic Jews and its apparent absence in non-Jewish populations (Costa et al., 2013; Behar et al., 2006) all seem to indicate that a Levantine origin is far more likely for K1a1b1a than a European one, regardless of where K1a1b1 first originated.
[…]
It is plausible that among the Judeans who moved to the region around the Black Sea there were women belonging to the JudeanEuropean community in Greece, Italy, or Anatolia who were the source of the major and minor mtDNA lineages in East European Ashkenazim. Later, during the 8th and 10th centuries, Jewish women with their families from Byzantium (Balkans, Italy, and Greece) arrived in Khazaria, who may have been carriers of K1a1b1a (and N1b2) as well.

Founder clades K2a2 and K1a9 also show a difference in distribution between West and East European Ashkenazim. K1a9 originated in Western Europe.

(Jits van Straten.,2017)

Ötzi, a mummy who was found September 1991 in the Ötztal Alps, is subclade K1ö for Ötzi. Ötzi has mtDNA marker 10978 in common with the Ashkenazi population and others who fall under the K1a1b1a subclade.

5 Surprising Facts About Otzi the Iceman

All later papers, from 2017 etc. give support to the 2013 Costa paper.

"Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and provide the foundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.
[…]
K1a1b1a (slightly re-defined, due to the improved resolution of the new tree) (Fig. 2) accounts for 63% of Ashkenazi K lineages (or ~20% of total Ashkenazi lineages) and dates to ~4.4 ka with maximum likelihood (ML); however, all of the samples within it, except for one, nest within a further subclade, K1a1b1a1, dating to ~2.3 ka (Supplementary Data 2). K1a1b1a1 is also present in non-Ashkenazi samples, mostly from central/east Europe."

(Costa et al,. 2013)

As of now I don't have access to this paper.

A reevaluation of the anthropological genetics literature on Jewish populations reveals them not simply to be a body of genetically related people descending from a small group of common ancestors, but rather a “mosaic” of peoples of diverse origins. Greek and other pre-medieval historiographic sources suggest the patterning evident in recent genetic studies could be explained by a major contribution from Greco-Roman and Anatolian-Byzantine converts who affiliated themselves with some iteration of Judaism beginning in the first and second centuries ce and continuing into the Middle Ages. These populations, along with Babylonian and Alexandrian Jewish communities, indigenous North Africans, and Slavic-speaking converts to Judaism, support a mosaic geography of Jewish ancestry in Europe and Western Asia, rather than one arising from a limited set of lineages originating solely in Palestine.

(Aram Yardumian and Theodore G. Schurr, "The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis," Journal of Anthropological Research 75, no. 2 (Summer 2019): 206-234.)

 

[Ish Gibor]

part 2

The Aramaic that appears in ancient Jewish literature is more Babylonian than anything. The dominant dialect of Jewish Aramaic is Middle Aramaic spoken with a Babylonian dialect; however, its origins seem to be in Eretz Yisroel. The Targumim are essentially Eastern Aramaic which demonstrate a Western Aramaic foundation. Talmud Bavli is Eastern Aramaic, where Talmud Yerushalmi is Western Aramaic. The biblical Aramaic that is found in Tenach (Daniyel, Ezra) is a bit different, but Babylonian nonetheless. Jews had not learned Aramaic in Eretz Yisroel, but they had to learn it in exile since it was the language of their Babylonian captors. The parts of Tenach which were composed in biblical Aramaic were written in that language as a result of the Babylonian exile. Interestingly, Teimanim have a unique minhag of counting the days of 'Sefiras Ha'Omer' ('Counting of the Omer' – the 49 days between Pesach and Shavuos) in Aramaic as opposed to Hebrew, since they preserved the ancient Babylonian custom where the lingua franca of most people was Aramaic.

Yes, that's the point. The Eastern Aramaic root of the Babylonian Talmud. This correlates with the history of the Ashkenazis and Middle Eastern genetic prints.

Aramaic is thought to have first appeared among the Aramaeans about the late 11th century BCE. By the 8th century BCE it had become accepted by the Assyrians as a second language. The mass deportations of people by the Assyrians and the use of Aramaic as a lingua franca by Babylonian merchants served to spread the language, so that in the 7th and 6th centuries BCE it gradually supplanted Akkadian as the lingua franca of the Middle East. It subsequently became the official language of the Achaemenian Persian dynasty (559–330 BCE), though after the conquests of Alexander the Great, Greek displaced it as the official language throughout the former Persian empire.

Aramaic dialects survived into Roman times, however, particularly in Palestine and Syria. Aramaic had replaced Hebrew as the language of the Jews as early as the 6th century BCE. Certain portions of the Bible—i.e., the books of Daniel and Ezra—are written in Aramaic, as are the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds. Among the Jews, Aramaic was used by the common people, while Hebrew remained the language of religion and government and of the upper class. Jesus and the Apostles are believed to have spoken Aramaic, and Aramaic-language translations (Targums) of the Old Testament circulated. Aramaic continued in wide use until about 650 CE, when it was supplanted by Arabic.

Aramaic language | Description, History, & Facts

Ashkenaz (Heb. אַשְׁכְּנָז) refers to a people and a country bordering on Armenia and the upper Euphrates; listed in Genesis 10:3 and I Chronicles 1:6 among the descendants of Gomer. The name Ashkenaz also occurs once in Jeremiah 51:27 in a passage calling upon the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz to rise and destroy Babylon. Scholars have identified the Ashkenaz as the people called Ashkuza (Ashguza, Ishguza) in Akkadian. According to Assyrian royal inscriptions the Ashkuza fought the Assyrians in the reign of Esharhaddon (680–669 B.C.E.) as allies of the Minni (Manneans). Since the Ashkuza are mentioned in conjunction with the Gimirrai-Cimmerians and the Ashkenaz with Gomer in Genesis, it is reasonable to infer that Ashkenaz is a dialectal form of Akkadian Ashkuza, identical with a group of Iranian-speaking people organized in confederations of tribes called Saka in Old Persian, whom Greek writers (e.g., Herodotus 1:103) called Scythians. They ranged from southern Russia through the Caucasus and into the Near East. Some scholars, however, have argued against this identification on philological grounds because of the presence of the "n" in the word Ashkenaz. In medieval rabbinical literature the name was used for Germany.

Jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Koichos]

I understand German. And I always have seen the pattered of Yiddish with German, before I understood linguistics. I know the word has been used as a slur. We can sit here going back-and-forth, but it is what it is. No need to look for excuses.

schvartze | Origin and meaning of schvartze by Online Etymology Dictionary

swarthy | Origin and meaning of swarthy by Online Etymology Dictionary

No More Jewish N-Word

It depends how it is used, and in what context. It can certainly be used disparagingly, especially if used by a non-Yiddish speaker, or as a lone Yiddishism in an English sentence–but to call it 'The Jewish N-Word'? Nonsense; 'shvartza' just means black. What other word should a Yiddish speaker use to refer to a black person? 'Afrikanisha Amerikanisha'? What if the person is not African American? There is no other word in Yiddish to refer to a black person regardless of their nationality. You certainly wouldn't use the word 'vaas' (white). The examples used to prove its derisiveness are almost exclusively English. But it is simply incorrect to suggest that it should not be used while speaking Yiddish. How would a person say 'Black lives matter' in Yiddish? Shvartza leybn zeynen vikhtig. Is that derogatory?

As of now I don't have access to this paper.

(Aram Yardumian and Theodore G. Schurr, "The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis," Journal of Anthropological Research 75, no. 2 (Summer 2019): 206-234.)

Here is the full paper: Yardumian and Schurr, 2019

part 2

Yes, that's the point. The Eastern Aramaic root of the Babylonian Talmud. This correlates with the history of the Ashkenazis and Middle Eastern genetic prints.

The Aramaic roots of Talmud Bavli (Eastern) and Talmud Yerushalmi (Western) correspond with the history of world Jewry, period. Moreover, minhag Ashkenaz is more Yerushalmi, where minhag Sefarad is more Bavli, a minhagic bifurcation based upon that which had existed between the two Jewries of Eretz Yisroel and Eretz Bavel prior to their transplantation to Europe.

Aramaic language | Description, History, & Facts

Jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The biblical terms 'Ashkenaz', 'Sefarad' and 'Teiman' were used as designations by our sages concerning the territories in which these biblical figures or domains were thought to have dwelled or to have been located. In early Medieval Hebrew, the land of Germany was known as אשכנז or 'Ashkenaz', the land of Spain as ספרד or 'Sefarad', and the land of Yemen as תימן or 'Teiman'. Hence the Jews who established communities in the lands of Germany, Spain and Yemen came to be known as אשכנזי or 'Ashkenazi', ספרדי or 'Sefardi' and תימןי or 'Teimani'. These terms are geographic identifiers, not biblical bloodlines. They have nothing whatever to do with descendance from the biblical Ashkenaz, Sefarad or Teiman. Teimani Jews are not descended from Teiman, the grandson of Eisuv (Beraishis 36:11); Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from Ashkenaz, the grandson of Yafes (ibid. 10:11); and Sefardi Jews are not descended from the biblical nation of Sefarad (Ovadyoh 1:20; nor are Ashkenazi Jews descended from the biblical nation of Ashkenaz (Yermeyohu 51:27).

Ashkenazi, Sefardi and Teimani Jew are geo-ethnological terms denoting ancestry traced back through time to those Jews who first settled in Germany, Spain, and Yemen. 'Ashkenazi' had no relation to the Jew prior to the Tenth Century CE as Jews had yet to establish a community along the Rhineland. In the context of post-biblical geography, אשכנז is nothing more than the Hebrew word for Germany, and in particular to the area along the Rhine where the Alamanni tribe once lived. אשכנזי is a diasporic term which developed naturally over the centuries on account of an initially successful search for more hospitable and flourishing lands. Beginning in the late Ninth Century CE Jews were invited into the Carolingian domains by virtue of royal charters in order to help the expanding Holy Roman Empire administer its newly established urban centers along the Rhine (i.e., Ashkenaz). Within the next few centuries—following the migration of Jews eastward due to crusades and persecution—the term Ashkenaz expanded to refer to all Jews of Central and Eastern Europe.

The first use of 'Ashkenaz' in reference to Jews appears as early as the Tenth Century CE in Jewish rabbinic and diplomatic writings under Islam. Perhaps the earliest comes from Baghdad, Iraq, around 933 CE (Sa'adyah ben Yosef Gaon's commentary on saifer Daniyel 7:8), and it is used there in reference to the Jews of Northwestern Europe. In the first half of the Eleventh Century CE R' Hai Gaon ben Sherira refers to Halochic questions that were addressed to him from 'Ashkenaz', which undoubtedly refers to Germany. Rash"i, in the latter half of the Eleventh Century CE refers to both the language of Ashkenaz (commentary on Dovorim 3:9, § 2; idem on b. Succ. 17a:3) and the land of Ashkenaz (b. Chul. 93a:1). During the Twelfth Century CE the term Ashkenaz appears quite frequently: in "Machzor Vitry", the liturgical compendium of R' Simcha ben Shmuel mi'Vitry, a disciple of Rash"i, Ashkenaz is referred to mainly in regard to the order of the shuls, but also with regard to certain other customs (shachris י״א; shabes קמ״ג; shvuos שי״ב; yom kippur שנ״ג; tzitzis תק״י).

In Jewish and especially rabbinic literature of the Thirteenth Century CE, references to the land and the language of Ashkenaz often occur. See especially R' Shlomo ben Avrohom ibn Aderes' Responsa (vol. I., No. 395); the Responsa of R' Asher ben Yechiyel (pp. 4, 6), and his work "Halochos" (Brochos I. 12, ed. Vilna, p. 10); the work of his son, R' Yaakov ben Asher, "Tur Oruch Chayim" (lix.); and the Responsa of R' Yitzchok ben Sheshes (Nos. 193, 268, 270). 1,700 years of Jewish literature substantiates the use of the Hebrew term Ashkenaz for what we know today as Germany, centuries prior to the first major wave of Jews who established communities along the trade routes of the Rhine River. It is used as such in Targum Yerushalmi, Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli, Medrish Rabo, Chazal, Geoinim, Rishoinim, and medieval Jewish literature in general. Outside of the Jewish world it is attested to by the ninth-century Franco-German Latin epistle Contra Judaeos by Amulo of Lyon which mentions clearly that the Jews referred to the Rhineland as 'Ashkenaz'.

Ashkenazi Jews are descended from those who returned to Eretz Yisroel from Bavel and later were taken to Southern Europe due to Roman persecution and other troubles and spread northward into Europe along the trade routes of the Rhine into Northern France and Germany (Ashkenaz). On the contrary, much of Sefardic Jewry descends from those who did not return to Eretz Yisroel from Bavel and instead spread across Asia and North Africa along the trade routes of the Mediterranean Sea to Spain (Sefarad). Customs prevailing in the medieval period were responsible for the fact that the Franco-German Jews came under the influence of the Land of Israel through Italy as an intermediary, while Spanish Jewry was linked mainly through North Africa with Babylonia. Those connections resulted in the fact that many of the differences which had existed between the two Oriental Jewries were transplanted to Europe, ergo the difference between the Ashkenazi and Sefardi rites is mainly based upon that which had existed between the Jews of Eretz Israel and Bavel.

 

[TEH]

NO I DONT

I JUST CONSIDER THEM LOST

You got Jewish white boys calling Christians, which includes all of our ancestors in slavery and the civil right era, lost, on a black forum. The Coli had a good run but ....

 

[Ish Gibor]

It depends how it is used, and in what context. It can certainly be used disparagingly, especially if used by a non-Yiddish speaker, or as a lone Yiddishism in an English sentence–but to call it 'The Jewish N-Word'? Nonsense; 'shvartza' just means black. What other word should a Yiddish speaker use to refer to a black person? 'Afrikanisha Amerikanisha'? What if the person is not African American? There is no other word in Yiddish to refer to a black person regardless of their nationality. You certainly wouldn't use the word 'vaas' (white). The examples used to prove its derisiveness are almost exclusively English. But it is simply incorrect to suggest that it should not be used while speaking Yiddish. How would a person say 'Black lives matter' in Yiddish? Shvartza leybn zeynen vikhtig. Is that derogatory?

You are only making things worse by looking for excuses and trying to rationalize it. We are speaking of the disparaging and denigrating tone. There's a long history to this and that is the crux of the matter.

Retire forever the word ‘shvartza’

Jews must never use the term 'shvartza'

Here is the full paper: Yardumian and Schurr, 2019

Thanks. The paper gives an extended review over former studies. Their conclusion is what I have suspected for many years. The Lachish and Assyrians play a role in this, correlating with the neighboring populations at the Crescent.

We therefore propose a process of Jewish ethnogenesis shaped by the social and socioeconomic currents of early and Medieval Eurasia and contributions from a mosaic of circum Mediterranean and Black Sea communities, not one arising simply from an exiled Levantine population. In support of this view, we review evidence in support of a heterogeneous, or mosaic, origin for contemporary Jewish populations through four landmark papers (Atzmon et al. 2010; Behar et al. 2013; Costa et al. 2013; Xue et al. 2017), supplemented by significant observations from others. Together, these studies build an argument for the origins of contemporary Ashkenazi Jewry in pan-Mediterranean (as well as other European and Babylonian) converts to Judaism, and possible later contribution by Levantine Hebrew-speaking individuals.
[...]
Y-chromosome studies by Nebel et al. (2000, 2001, 2005) also supported the sug-gestion that Ashkenazi males were more closely related to“Middle Eastern”popula-tions than to“host”European populations (Rhine French, German, and various East-ern European groups). In this regard, the range of NRY haplogroups present in Jewishpopulations was broad. Of the twelve most frequently identified paternal lineages orhaplogroups (E1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1c-M123, E3b, G2b-M377, J-P58, J1-M267,J2a-M410, J2a1b-M67, Q1b-M378, R1a1a-M17, R1b1b2-M269, R1b1-P25), allbut one may be found throughout the Mediterranean, Asia Minor, Iran, and the Caucasus (Behar et al. 2004a, 2004b; Hammer et al. 2009; Semino et al. 2004; Senguptaet al. 2006; Underhill et al. 2015). Thus, this distribution broadens the potential geo-graphic region of origin to include most of Western Asia.

(Yardumian and Schurr, 2019)

The Aramaic roots of Talmud Bavli (Eastern) and Talmud Yerushalmi (Western) correspond with the history of world Jewry, period. Moreover, minhag Ashkenaz is more Yerushalmi, where minhag Sefarad is more Bavli, a minhagic bifurcation based upon that which had existed between the two Jewries of Eretz Yisroel and Eretz Bavel prior to their transplantation to Europe.

I am not arguing over the fidelity. My point is to trace the root of the Ashkenazim.
How is the Talmud Eretz Yisrael Western, when it's referred to as the Palestinian Talmud?

Tale of Two Talmuds: Jerusalem and Babylonian | My Jewish Learning

The biblical terms 'Ashkenaz', 'Sefarad' and 'Teiman' were used as designations by our sages concerning the territories in which these biblical figures or domains were thought to have dwelled or to have been located. In early Medieval Hebrew, the land of Germany was known as אשכנז or 'Ashkenaz', the land of Spain as ספרד or 'Sefarad', and the land of Yemen as תימן or 'Teiman'. Hence the Jews who established communities in the lands of Germany, Spain and Yemen came to be known as אשכנזי or 'Ashkenazi', ספרדי or 'Sefardi' and תימןי or 'Teimani'. These terms are geographic identifiers, not biblical bloodlines. They have nothing whatever to do with descendance from the biblical Ashkenaz, Sefarad or Teiman. Teimani Jews are not descended from Teiman, the grandson of Eisuv (Beraishis 36:11); Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from Ashkenaz, the grandson of Yafes (ibid. 10:11); and Sefardi Jews are not descended from the biblical nation of Sefarad (Ovadyoh 1:20; nor are Ashkenazi Jews descended from the biblical nation of Ashkenaz (Yermeyohu 51:27).

Ashkenazi, Sefardi and Teimani Jew are geo-ethnological terms denoting ancestry traced back through time to those Jews who first settled in Germany, Spain, and Yemen. 'Ashkenazi' had no relation to the Jew prior to the Tenth Century CE as Jews had yet to establish a community along the Rhineland. In the context of post-biblical geography, אשכנז is nothing more than the Hebrew word for Germany, and in particular to the area along the Rhine where the Alamanni tribe once lived. אשכנזי is a diasporic term which developed naturally over the centuries on account of an initially successful search for more hospitable and flourishing lands. Beginning in the late Ninth Century CE Jews were invited into the Carolingian domains by virtue of royal charters in order to help the expanding Holy Roman Empire administer its newly established urban centers along the Rhine (i.e., Ashkenaz). Within the next few centuries—following the migration of Jews eastward due to crusades and persecution—the term Ashkenaz expanded to refer to all Jews of Central and Eastern Europe.

The first use of 'Ashkenaz' in reference to Jews appears as early as the Tenth Century CE in Jewish rabbinic and diplomatic writings under Islam. Perhaps the earliest comes from Baghdad, Iraq, around 933 CE (Sa'adyah ben Yosef Gaon's commentary on saifer Daniyel 7:8), and it is used there in reference to the Jews of Northwestern Europe. In the first half of the Eleventh Century CE R' Hai Gaon ben Sherira refers to Halochic questions that were addressed to him from 'Ashkenaz', which undoubtedly refers to Germany. Rash"i, in the latter half of the Eleventh Century CE refers to both the language of Ashkenaz (commentary on Dovorim 3:9, § 2; idem on b. Succ. 17a:3) and the land of Ashkenaz (b. Chul. 93a:1). During the Twelfth Century CE the term Ashkenaz appears quite frequently: in "Machzor Vitry", the liturgical compendium of R' Simcha ben Shmuel mi'Vitry, a disciple of Rash"i, Ashkenaz is referred to mainly in regard to the order of the shuls, but also with regard to certain other customs (shachris י״א; shabes קמ״ג; shvuos שי״ב; yom kippur שנ״ג; tzitzis תק״י).

In Jewish and especially rabbinic literature of the Thirteenth Century CE, references to the land and the language of Ashkenaz often occur. See especially R' Shlomo ben Avrohom ibn Aderes' Responsa (vol. I., No. 395); the Responsa of R' Asher ben Yechiyel (pp. 4, 6), and his work "Halochos" (Brochos I. 12, ed. Vilna, p. 10); the work of his son, R' Yaakov ben Asher, "Tur Oruch Chayim" (lix.); and the Responsa of R' Yitzchok ben Sheshes (Nos. 193, 268, 270). 1,700 years of Jewish literature substantiates the use of the Hebrew term Ashkenaz for what we know today as Germany, centuries prior to the first major wave of Jews who established communities along the trade routes of the Rhine River. It is used as such in Targum Yerushalmi, Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli, Medrish Rabo, Chazal, Geoinim, Rishoinim, and medieval Jewish literature in general. Outside of the Jewish world it is attested to by the ninth-century Franco-German Latin epistle Contra Judaeos by Amulo of Lyon which mentions clearly that the Jews referred to the Rhineland as 'Ashkenaz'.

Ashkenazi Jews are descended from those who returned to Eretz Yisroel from Bavel and later were taken to Southern Europe due to Roman persecution and other troubles and spread northward into Europe along the trade routes of the Rhine into Northern France and Germany (Ashkenaz). On the contrary, much of Sefardic Jewry descends from those who did not return to Eretz Yisroel from Bavel and instead spread across Asia and North Africa along the trade routes of the Mediterranean Sea to Spain (Sefarad). Customs prevailing in the medieval period were responsible for the fact that the Franco-German Jews came under the influence of the Land of Israel through Italy as an intermediary, while Spanish Jewry was linked mainly through North Africa with Babylonia. Those connections resulted in the fact that many of the differences which had existed between the two Oriental Jewries were transplanted to Europe, ergo the difference between the Ashkenazi and Sefardi rites is mainly based upon that which had existed between the Jews of Eretz Israel and Bavel.

The Ashkenazi genetic print tells us the root and it correlates with recorded history. It shows the Crescent as the origin. And the question becomes who are the Ashkenaz and where did they go? Why was Germany was known as אשכנז or 'Ashkenaz'?

Uncovering ancient Ashkenaz – the birthplace of Yiddish speakers

"Before discussing the historical implications of our results, we point out two general lessons that emerge from the analysis. The first is that AJ genetics defies simple demographic theories. Hypotheses such as a wholly Khazar, Turkish, or Middle-Eastern origin have been disqualified [4–7, 17, 55], but even a model of a single Middle-Eastern and European admixture event cannot account for all of our observations. The actual admixture history might have been highly complex, including multiple geographic sources and admixture events. Moreover, due to the genetic similarity and complex history of the European populations involved (particularly in Southern Europe [51]), the multiple paths of AJ migration across Europe [10], and the strong genetic drift experienced by AJ in the late Middle Ages [9, 16], there seems to be a limit on the resolution to which the AJ admixture history can be reconstructed."

Our model of the AJ admixture history is presented in Fig 7. Under our model, admixture in Europe first happened in Southern Europe, and was followed by a founder event and a minor admixture event (likely) in Eastern Europe. Admixture in Southern Europe possibly occurred in Italy, given the continued presence of Jews there and the proposed Italian source of the early Rhineland Ashkenazi communities [3]. What is perhaps surprising is the timing of the Southern European admixture to ≈24–49 generations ago, since Jews are known to have resided in Italy already since antiquity. This result would imply no gene flow between Jews and local Italian populations almost until the turn of the millennium, either due to endogamy, or because the group that eventually gave rise to contemporary Ashkenazi Jews did not reside in Southern Europe until that time. More detailed and/or alternative interpretations are left for future studies."

(James Xue, et al., 2017)

 

[Koichos]

You are only making things worse by looking for excuses and trying to rationalize it. We are speaking of the disparaging and denigrating tone. There's a long history to this and that is the crux of the matter.

Retire forever the word ‘shvartza’

Jews must never use the term 'shvartza'

There is no need to rationalize anything given the fact that 'shvartza' is the ONLY word in the Yiddish language that fully encapsulates and conveys blackness. Do some people use it as a pejorative? Yes. Should it ceased to be used because of that? Absolutely not. It is no more derogatory than the Yiddish word 'goyta' (for a non-Jewish housekeeper) or the Hebrew word 'goya' (for a non-Jewish woman). Depending on context and tone of voice, all three words can be used in a derogatory manner; but to describe 'shvartza' as a vile and repulsive word is a slight to every native Yiddish speaker. In Yiddish, 'shvartz' is the only way to say 'black'. A native Yiddish speaker would describe anything black as 'shvartza', not just a person. You will not find an authentic, native Yiddish speaker who does not use it.

Vileykher hoza yz dantz (Which house is yours?)

"De shvartza" (The black one)​

Vileykher yz dan oytu? (Which is your car?)

"De shvartza" (The black one)
​

Vileykher mentsh yz eir? (Which guy is he?)

"De shvartza" (The black one)​

I am not arguing over the fidelity. My point is to trace the root of the Ashkenazim.
How is the Talmud Eretz Yisrael Western, when it's referred to as the Palestinian Talmud?

Tale of Two Talmuds: Jerusalem and Babylonian | My Jewish Learning

'Western' and 'Eastern' vis-à-vis the Aramaic dialects that appear in the Talmudim. Talmud Yerushalmi is Western Aramaic whereas Talmud Bavli is Eastern Aramaic.

The Ashkenazi genetic print tells us the root and it correlates with recorded history. It shows the Crescent as the origin. And the question becomes who are the Ashkenaz and where did they go? Why was Germany was known as אשכנז or 'Ashkenaz'?

The well-documented practice of Jews designating areas with biblical names goes back to the days of yore. In ancient Jewish tradition, Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, and his descendants, were said to dwell in the recesses of the north, so the Germanic territory of Northern Europe was termed ארץ אשכנז or 'the land of Ashkenaz'. In turn, Jews who migrated to Ashkenaz became known as יהודי אשכנז or 'Yehudei Ashkenaz' (Jews of Ashkenaz). Sefarad was believed to be to the west, so the region off to the western end of the Mediterranean (Spain and Portugal) was called ארץ ספרד or 'the land of Sefarad', and the Jews who would later settle there were called יהודי ספרד or 'Yehudei Sefarad' (Jews of Sefarad). Likewise, the Biblical Hebrew name צרפת or 'Tzorfas' was identified with France, so the Jews who settled in Tzorfas were known as יהודי צרפת or 'Yehudei Tzorfas' (Jews of Tzorfas). Naturally, due to Ashkenaz being the center of Torah learning and commerce, the term Ashkenaz became the all-encompassing monicker for Jews throughout Europe excepting Sefarad.

We also find that the Hebrew word גמר or 'Gomer' is translated into Aramaic by Chaza"l, our sages of blessed memory, as גרממיא or 'Germomya', similar phonetically to that of the Latin, 'Germania'. Our sages further explain, "גמר'–זה גרממיא'" - "'Gomer', i.e., Germomya". In later commentary by the meforshim, we read: "Germomya, i.e., Germany". The identification of Ashkenaz with Germany also appears in Medrish Rabo where it says "אשכנז וריפת ותגרמא [זה] גרמניקייא" - "Ashkenaz, Rifas, and Togarmah are גרמניקייא", the latter גרמניקייא referring to German tribes or German lands. Similarly, Targum Yerushalmi identifies Ashkenaz with the Barbari, an ancient Germanic peoples who invaded the Roman Empire in the early centuries. Thus, by the middle Amoraic period, centuries prior to Jews establishing urban centers along the Rhine (Ashkenaz), Chaza"l in their literature were already identifying Ashkenaz with German lands. The medieval Hebrew term 'Ashkenaz' began as a Jewish exonym for Germany; it has nothing to do with İşkenaz, Eşkenez, Aşhanas or Aschuz.

 

[Ish Gibor]

There is no need to rationalize anything given the fact that 'shvartza' is the ONLY word in the Yiddish language that fully encapsulates and conveys blackness. Do some people use it as a pejorative? Yes. Should it ceased to be used because of that? Absolutely not. It is no more derogatory than the Yiddish word 'goyta' (for a non-Jewish housekeeper) or the Hebrew word 'goya' (for a non-Jewish woman). Depending on context and tone of voice, all three words can be used in a derogatory manner; but to describe 'shvartza' as a vile and repulsive word is a slight to every native Yiddish speaker. In Yiddish, 'shvartz' is the only way to say 'black'. A native Yiddish speaker would describe anything black as 'shvartza', not just a person. You will not find an authentic, native Yiddish speaker who does not use it.

Vileykher hoza yz dantz (Which house is yours?)

"De shvartza" (The black one)​

Vileykher yz dan oytu? (Which is your car?)

"De shvartza" (The black one)
​

Vileykher mentsh yz eir? (Which guy is he?)

"De shvartza" (The black one)​

Ok we can consider it legitimate from that point of view. So are these shvartza?

This is a depiction of three Chaldean soldiers with Hebrew captives, from a Byzantine illuminated manuscript called the Bristol Psalter, circa 11th century

A screenshot of Joseph being sold into slavery to the Ishamaelites, by his brothers

Two Ziphites before Biblical character King Saul, from manuscript

A depiction of David getting captured by the Philistines in the town of Gath

A depiction of Biblical character David slaying the Philistine giant Goliath

'Western' and 'Eastern' vis-à-vis the Aramaic dialects that appear in the Talmudim. Talmud Yerushalmi is Western Aramaic whereas Talmud Bavli is Eastern Aramaic.

Well, if you look at it from that point of view it could be called western Talmud. It's just not being used in that sense.

The well-documented practice of Jews designating areas with biblical names goes back to the days of yore. In ancient Jewish tradition, Ashkenaz, son of Gomer, and his descendants, were said to dwell in the recesses of the north, so the Germanic territory of Northern Europe was termed ארץ אשכנז or 'the land of Ashkenaz'. In turn, Jews who migrated to Ashkenaz became known as יהודי אשכנז or 'Yehudei Ashkenaz' (Jews of Ashkenaz). Sefarad was believed to be to the west, so the region off to the western end of the Mediterranean (Spain and Portugal) was called ארץ ספרד or 'the land of Sefarad', and the Jews who would later settle there were called יהודי ספרד or 'Yehudei Sefarad' (Jews of Sefarad). Likewise, the Biblical Hebrew name צרפת or 'Tzorfas' was identified with France, so the Jews who settled in Tzorfas were known as יהודי צרפת or 'Yehudei Tzorfas' (Jews of Tzorfas). Naturally, due to Ashkenaz being the center of Torah learning and commerce, the term Ashkenaz became the all-encompassing monicker for Jews throughout Europe excepting Sefarad.

We also find that the Hebrew word גמר or 'Gomer' is translated into Aramaic by Chaza"l, our sages of blessed memory, as גרממיא or 'Germomya', similar phonetically to that of the Latin, 'Germania'. Our sages further explain, "גמר'–זה גרממיא'" - "'Gomer', i.e., Germomya". In later commentary by the meforshim, we read: "Germomya, i.e., Germany". The identification of Ashkenaz with Germany also appears in Medrish Rabo where it says "אשכנז וריפת ותגרמא [זה] גרמניקייא" - "Ashkenaz, Rifas, and Togarmah are גרמניקייא", the latter גרמניקייא referring to German tribes or German lands. Similarly, Targum Yerushalmi identifies Ashkenaz with the Barbari, an ancient Germanic peoples who invaded the Roman Empire in the early centuries. Thus, by the middle Amoraic period, centuries prior to Jews establishing urban centers along the Rhine (Ashkenaz), Chaza"l in their literature were already identifying Ashkenaz with German lands. The medieval Hebrew term 'Ashkenaz' began as a Jewish exonym for Germany; it has nothing to do with İşkenaz, Eşkenez, Aşhanas or Aschuz.

Are you saying ancient Germany and France are recorded in the Torah, hundreds of years prior to the existence of these states? What is the name from Greece and Rome? We do know that Northwest Africans inhabited the Iberia Peninsula first. After that there was wars with Rome and Germanic tribes, who became the settlers after they kicked out the Northwest Africans. I wonder how much part these jewish communities became within the Roman cosmopolitan. It seems they were well integrated.

The word Germany indeed dates back to the Latin word Germania. So it does correlate with what was already reviewed in these genetic papers. There was wars and intermingling within and with Rome. And this is probably how and why Germany became associated with Ashkenaz. I wonder if the Greeks and Romans also were familiar with Gomer, since they translated the Bible from early on.

c. 1300, "region of continental Europe inhabited by Germanic peoples," in a broad sense, from Latin Germania, a Roman designation

Origin and meaning of Germany by Online Etymology Dictionary

Uncertainties concerning the meaning of “Ashkenaz” arose in the Eleventh century when the term shifted from a designation of the Iranian Scythians to become that of Slavs and Germans and finally of “German” (Ashkenazic) Jews in the Eleventh to Thirteenth centuries (Wexler, 1993). The first known discussion of the origin of German Jews and Yiddish surfaced in the writings of the Hebrew grammarian Elia Baxur in the first half of the Sixteenth century (Wexler, 1993).

(Ranajit Das et al., 2017)

So basically this what you said was that Gomer is Germany, however some say it's Southern Russia? Either way, it's people with the same common origin from the Steppe region.

בְּנֵ֣י יֶ֔פֶת גֹּ֣מֶר וּמָג֔וֹג וּמָדַ֖י וְיָוָ֣ן וְתֻבָ֑ל וּמֶ֖שֶׁךְ וְתִירָֽס׃

The descendants of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras.

וּבְנֵ֖י גֹּ֑מֶר אַשְׁכֲּנַ֥ז וְרִיפַ֖ת וְתֹגַרְמָֽה׃

The descendants of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.

Would you agree?

From the verb גמר (gamar), to complete or bring to an end.

The amazing name Gomer: meaning and etymology

From (1) the noun אש ('esh), fire, (2) כ (ke), like or as, and (3) the verb נזה (naza), to sprinkle.

The amazing name Ashkenaz: meaning and etymology

 

[Koichos]

Ok we can consider it legitimate from that point of view. So are these shvartza?

This is a depiction of three Chaldean soldiers with Hebrew captives, from a Byzantine illuminated manuscript called the Bristol Psalter, circa 11th century

A screenshot of Joseph being sold into slavery to the Ishamaelites, by his brothers

Two Ziphites before Biblical character King Saul, from manuscript

A depiction of David getting captured by the Philistines in the town of Gath

A depiction of Biblical character David slaying the Philistine giant Goliath

Any person with a swarthy complexion could be considered shvartz: a Teimani or Mizrachi could be shvartz; a swarthy Sefardi or Ashkenazi could be shvartz. In fact, that is how the Ashkenazic surname 'Schwartz' came to be. It turns out that many Ashkenazi Jews with the surname 'Schwartz' descend paternally from a Sefardic Jew who migrated to Ashkenaz and had children with an Ashkenazic Jewish woman. He was called 'shvartz' since he was generally swarthier than the Ashkenazi. Nonetheless, 'shvartza' is synonymous with a non-Jewish black man or woman; just as 'vaasir' is synonymous with a non-Jewish white man or woman. Funnily enough, 'Ashkenazi' is actually a Sefardic surname, but if one were to go back far enough in the male line one would find an Ashkenazic Jewish progenitor.

As for the depictions, they are meaningless. Anyone who learns Torah in Loshon Hakoidesh with even the most perfunctory understanding of triconsonantal roots knows that the yidn were not a dark-skinned people. That is why we have a unique brocho we make, even on a Jew–whose complexion is distinct from the rest of Jewry–thanking Hashem for varying His creations. Were there dark-skinned Jews among the klal? Yes. Was klal yisroel a dark-skinned people? No; the klal was not a dark-skinned people in biblical times, mishnaic times, nor today. We have Chaza"lic literature dating back to first-century Israel regarding this matter. In any case, I would refer to such depictions as yidn, not shvartzas. Frum yidn thank Hashem for their being created as Jews; not black, white, or any color in between.

Well, if you look at it from that point of view it could be called western Talmud. It's just not being used in that sense.

It's called Talmud Yerushalmi because it was composed in Eretz Yisroel; the dialectic roots of the Aramaic spoken in Eretz Yisroel was Western Aramaic. Talmud Bavli was composed in Eretz Bavel where the dialectic roots of the Aramaic spoken was Eastern Aramaic. I remember from a shiur Torah years ago that the Talmud (in its time) was originally referred to as "Havoyos d'Abbayeh v'Rava". Similar to how we refer to Tenach today (acronym for Torah Neviyim K'suvim); but in the time of our sages they referred to Tenach as "Mikra".

Are you saying ancient Germany and France are recorded in the Torah, hundreds of years prior to the existence of these states? What is the name from Greece and Rome? We do know that Northwest Africans inhabited the Iberia Peninsula first. After that there was wars with Rome and Germanic tribes, who became the settlers after they kicked out the Northwest Africans. I wonder how much part these jewish communities became within the Roman cosmopolitan. It seems they were well integrated.

My point is not that Torah refers to these places explicitly. It was in ancient Jewish tradition that these biblical figures or domains were used as designations by Chazal concerning the territories in which they were thought to have dwelled or to have been located. Greece was called יון or 'Yavan', and Rome אדום or 'Edom'. However, sometimes the territorial designations were mere allusions to stories from Torah. For example, the Slavic lands to which Jews would migrate, namely Bohemia and Moravia (Czech lands), were known as ארץ כנען or 'the land of C'na'an' due to the large European slave market in Prague, and derived from the Torah where Noach says כנען will be a servant to his brothers. Throughout the medieval period the saqaliba in the Bohemian lands were reminiscent of C'na'an's cursing.

The word Germany indeed dates back to the Latin word Germania. So it does correlate with what was already reviewed in these genetic papers. There was wars and intermingling within and with Rome. And this is probably how and why Germany became associated with Ashkenaz. I wonder if the Greeks and Romans also were familiar with Gomer, since they translated the Bible from early on.

Origin and meaning of Germany by Online Etymology Dictionary

"Uncertainties concerning the meaning of “Ashkenaz” arose in the Eleventh century when the term shifted from a designation of the Iranian Scythians to become that of Slavs and Germans and finally of “German” (Ashkenazic) Jews in the Eleventh to Thirteenth centuries (Wexler, 1993). The first known discussion of the origin of German Jews and Yiddish surfaced in the writings of the Hebrew grammarian Elia Baxur in the first half of the Sixteenth century (Wexler, 1993)."

(Ranajit Das et al., 2017)

So basically this what you said was that Gomer is Germany, however some say it's Southern Russia? Either way, it's people with the same common origin from the Steppe region.

Would you agree?

The amazing name Gomer: meaning and etymology

The amazing name Ashkenaz: meaning and etymology

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be agreeing or disagreeing with, but that quote from Das et al. is patently false and disregards the various first-hand sources we have from our sages (Targum Yerushalmi, Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli, Medrish Rabbo, Chazal, Geoinim, Rasa"g (רס"ג)); and this does not even take into account the corroborating goyishe sources from the likes of Amulo of Lyon in his ninth-century epistle Contra Judaeos which mentions clearly that the Jews referred to Germany (the Rhine in particular) as אשכנז.

 

[Ish Gibor]

Any person with a swarthy complexion could be considered shvartz: a Teimani or Mizrachi could be shvartz; a swarthy Sefardi or Ashkenazi could be shvartz. In fact, that is how the Ashkenazic surname 'Schwartz' came to be. It turns out that many Ashkenazi Jews with the surname 'Schwartz' descend paternally from a Sefardic Jew who migrated to Ashkenaz and had children with an Ashkenazic Jewish woman. He was called 'shvartz' since he was generally swarthier than the Ashkenazi. Nonetheless, 'shvartza' is synonymous with a non-Jewish black man or woman; just as 'vaasir' is synonymous with a non-Jewish white man or woman. Funnily enough, 'Ashkenazi' is actually a Sefardic surname, but if one were to go back far enough in the male line one would find an Ashkenazic Jewish progenitor.

As for the depictions, they are meaningless. Anyone who learns Torah in Loshon Hakoidesh with even the most perfunctory understanding of triconsonantal roots knows that the yidn were not a dark-skinned people. That is why we have a unique brocho we make, even on a Jew–whose complexion is distinct from the rest of Jewry–thanking Hashem for varying His creations. Were there dark-skinned Jews among the klal? Yes. Was klal yisroel a dark-skinned people? No; the klal was not a dark-skinned people in biblical times, mishnaic times, nor today. We have Chaza"lic literature dating back to first-century Israel regarding this matter. In any case, I would refer to such depictions as yidn, not shvartzas. Frum yidn thank Hashem for their being created as Jews; not black, white, or any color in between.

So if shvartz is the progenitor to the Sephardim usage (which I agree with), why is it used for Blacks in America etc? How far back does the 'Ashkenazi' is actually go as a Sefardic surname progenitor? The "Yidn" claim is quite remarkable. Are you certain about that, and if so how certain? In terms of the people from the Steppe region you're right. They aren't dark-skinned people. In terms of the Levant you are wrong, because they were and are.

Ashchenaz is also mentioned in the Bible as the name of a kingdom (Jeremiah 51.27), probably in the upper Euphrates. In early rabbinical literature Ashkenaz was identified with Asia. In the Middle Ages, it designated the area of Jewish settlement in north west Europe on the banks of the Rhine.

Eventually, the term covered Germany, German Jewry and German Jews, especially when contrasted with Spanish Jews, the Sephardim, and their culture. The various forms of the family name developed when German Jews migrated to southern Europe and North Africa. Ashkenazi is documented as a Jewish family name in the 13th century, Aschkenasi in the 15th century, and Ashkenasi in the 16th century. In the 19th century, Ashkenazi is recorded as a Jewish family name in a 'ketubbah' from Tunis dated August 24, 1858, of Eliezer Zalman Ashkenazi and his wife Rachel, daughter of Joseph Crimas.

Distinguished bearers of the Jewish family name Ashkenazi include the 13th century rabbi of Toledo (Spain), Jehonathan Ashkenazi; the Italian-born Turkish physician and diplomat, Solomon Ashkenazi (circa 1520-1602); the Sephardi chief rabbi of Eretz Israel, Abraham Ben Jacob Ashkenazi (1811-1889): and the Moravian born rabbinical authority Tsevi Hirsch Ashkenazi also known as Haham Tsevi (circa 1660-1718).

Distinguished bearers of the Jewish family name Ashkenazy include the 20th century Russian-born pianist, Vladimir Davidovich Ashkenazy.

~Beit Hatfutsot Databases

And the question was not if you think these images are meaningless. The question was are these and can these be considered shvartz? It's not a complicated question.

Are these shvartz?

Can this man be considered shvartz?

It's called Talmud Yerushalmi because it was composed in Eretz Yisroel; the dialectic roots of the Aramaic spoken in Eretz Yisroel was Western Aramaic. Talmud Bavli was composed in Eretz Bavel where the dialectic roots of the Aramaic spoken was Eastern Aramaic. I remember from a shiur Torah years ago that the Talmud (in its time) was originally referred to as "Havoyos d'Abbayeh v'Rava". Similar to how we refer to Tenach today (acronym for Torah Neviyim K'suvim); but in the time of our sages they referred to Tenach as "Mikra".

But it still doesn't mean that it is referred to as the Western Talmud that my point. I am not arguing over these differences in these Talmuds.

My point is not that Torah refers to these places explicitly. It was in ancient Jewish tradition that these biblical figures or domains were used as designations by Chazal concerning the territories in which they were thought to have dwelled or to have been located. Greece was called יון or 'Yavan', and Rome אדום or 'Edom'. However, sometimes the territorial designations were mere allusions to stories from Torah. For example, the Slavic lands to which Jews would migrate, namely Bohemia and Moravia (Czech lands), were known as ארץ כנען or 'the land of C'na'an' due to the large European slave market in Prague, and derived from the Torah where Noach says כנען will be a servant to his brothers. Throughout the medieval period the saqaliba in the Bohemian lands were reminiscent of C'na'an's cursing.

Are you suggesting that C'na'an (Canaan) was/ is in Europe, Czech, Prague? Or am I interpreting you wrong here?

Isn't C'na'an' Hamitic? Are you suggesting that Czechs are Hamitic people? The Saqaliba became high ranking soldiers in the Turks Ottoman empire. I am not sure what it is you are trying to tell here?

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be agreeing or disagreeing with, but that quote from Das et al. is patently false and disregards the various first-hand sources we have from our sages (Targum Yerushalmi, Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli, Medrish Rabbo, Chazal, Geoinim, Rasa"g (רס"ג)); and this does not even take into account the corroborating goyishe sources from the likes of Amulo of Lyon in his ninth-century epistle Contra Judaeos which mentions clearly that the Jews referred to Germany (the Rhine in particular) as אשכנז.

Das et al. extensively reviewed multiple sources before publishing this paper. Perhaps you should write a rebuttal? All sources up till now which we have verified, said the same. And gave us the same origin. This was by your own sources and mine. The papers all are in agreement over the point of origin. You are the only one who constantly is shifting the story. In one post it's the Rhine, in another post it's not the Rhine and so on....

 

[Koichos]

So if shvartz is the progenitor to the Sephardim usage (which I agree with), why is it used for Blacks in America etc?

Because 'shvartza' is the Yiddish equivalent to the English word 'black'. There is no other word in the Yiddish vocabulary that can be used to refer to a black person.

How far back does the 'Ashkenazi' is actually go as a Sefardic surname progenitor?

It depends on when their ancestors migrated from Ashkenaz to Sefarad. There is an old Israeli adage that if your surname is 'Ashkenazi', you are Sefardi. The surname 'Ashkenazi' is a reliable marker of Sefardic heritage.

The "Yidn" claim is quite remarkable.

Jews : English :: Yidn : Yiddish

Are you certain about that, and if so how certain? In terms of the people from the Steppe region you're right. They aren't dark-skinned people. In terms of the Levant you are wrong, because they were and are.

There have always been dark-skinned Jews, but Jews have never been a dark-skinned people.

~Beit Hatfutsot Databases

And the question was not if you think these images are meaningless. The question was are these and can these be considered shvartz? It's not a complicated question.

Are these shvartz?

Can this man be considered shvartz?

If an Ashkenazi could be considered shvartz, why couldn't a Bedouin or a Druze?

But it still doesn't mean that it is referred to as the Western Talmud that my point. I am not arguing over these differences in these Talmuds.

I never said the Yerushalmi was referred to as the "Western Talmud". My use of 'Western' and 'Eastern' was to point out the Aramaic dialects of the Talmudim, not to suggest that Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli were known as 'Western' Talmud and 'Eastern' Talmud.

Are you suggesting that C'na'an (Canaan) was/ is in Europe, Czech, Prague? Or am I interpreting you wrong here?

No. Eretz C'na'an is Eretz Yisroel. C'na'an encompasses modern day Israel. The Bohemian lands were not called 'C'na'an' as its being the literal biblical location; they were called 'C'na'an' on account of the slave markets that were reminiscent of the passage in Torah where Noach curses C'na'an to be a slave to his brethren. It is nothing more than a medieval Jewish appellation based on its bearing resemblance to the biblical story of C'na'an's cursing. This is attested to by Sefardic writer and traveler, Binyomin ben Yona of Teluda.

Isn't C'na'an' Hamitic?

Yes. C'na'an is the fourth son of Chom.

Are you suggesting that Czechs are Hamitic people?

No.

 

[Ish Gibor]

Because 'shvartza' is the Yiddish equivalent to the English word 'black'. There is no other word in the Yiddish vocabulary that can be used to refer to a black person.

Yes, we have resolved this. It was a misunderstanding due to crosstalk. Anyway, are the Cushytic referred to as shvartza?

It depends on when their ancestors migrated from Ashkenaz to Sefarad. There is an old Israeli adage that if your surname is 'Ashkenazi', you are Sefardi. The surname 'Ashkenazi' is a reliable marker of Sefardic heritage.

Yes, I posted a source on this. There was indeed migrations from the Iberian Peninsula to Western Europe. Logically groups mixed. Genetics studies show this isolation.

Jews : English :: Yidn : Yiddish

There have always been dark-skinned Jews, but Jews have never been a dark-skinned people.

My bad, but that's confusing. Yidn is Jewish in Yiddish, that logic I can follow, but then you say: "There have always been dark-skinned Jews, but Jews have never been a dark-skinned people."?

If an Ashkenazi could be considered shvartz, why couldn't a Bedouin or a Druze?

I see, we had a misunderstanding, due to you saying that those medieval scriptures were meaningless. This came off as confusing and odd, since it's recorded history. Just like that statue of the ancient Hebrew that can be seen at the Hecht museum, at Haifa Israel.

Would you consider these Yemeni, Soqotra people, Semitic?

Ancient Philistine

I never said the Yerushalmi was referred to as the "Western Talmud". My use of 'Western' and 'Eastern' was to point out the Aramaic dialects of the Talmudim, not to suggest that Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli were known as 'Western' Talmud and 'Eastern' Talmud.

But your way of usage made it confusing, because nobody is using it that way. Anyway, I get what you was trying to say. Can you explain what the differences are between these two Talmuds. It's been a while since I did reading on this. I know one is smaller (Talmud Yerushalmi) than the other (Talmud Bavli). Do these differ in interpretations?

No. Eretz C'na'an is Eretz Yisroel. C'na'an encompasses modern day Israel. The Bohemian lands were not called 'C'na'an' as its being the literal biblical location; they were called 'C'na'an' on account of the slave markets that were reminiscent of the passage in Torah where Noach curses C'na'an to be a slave to his brethren. It is nothing more than a medieval Jewish appellation based on its bearing resemblance to the biblical story of C'na'an's cursing. This is attested to by Sefardic writer and traveler, Binyomin ben Yona of Teluda.

Ok, I see what you mean. Well, at the same token Arabs enslaved people from Cush (Africa) for over a thousand years. Not that I minimize what the Ottoman Turks have done in Eastern Europe to slavic people, but wouldn't it be more logically to see them as Japheth's offspring?

Yes. C'na'an is the fourth son of Chom.

I know.

וּבְנֵ֖י חָ֑ם כּ֥וּשׁ וּמִצְרַ֖יִם וּפ֥וּט וּכְנָֽעַן׃

The descendants of Ham: Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan.

No.

Oh, ok.

 

[Koichos]

Anyway, are the Cushytic referred to as shvartza?

Are they black?

My bad, but that's confusing. Yidn is Jewish in Yiddish, that logic I can follow

Almost, but not quite.

Jew : English :: Yid : Yiddish
Jews : English :: Yidn : Yiddish
Jewish : English :: Yiddish : Yiddish

Yiddish literally means Jewish.

but then you say: "There have always been dark-skinned Jews, but Jews have never been a dark-skinned people."?

Dark-skinned Jews have always been a minority among Jewry.

Would you consider these Yemeni, Soqotra people, Semitic?

Ancient Philistine

Yes. Being a Semite is not bound by complexion.

Can you explain what the differences are between these two Talmuds. It's been a while since I did reading on this. I know one is smaller (Talmud Yerushalmi) than the other (Talmud Bavli).

There were two centers of Torah learning in the Jewish world two millennia ago, Bavel (Babylon; Iraq) and Eretz Yisroel (Yerusholoyim). Due to historical developments of the Roman and later Byzantine persecutions of the Jewish People in the Land of Israel, the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel dwindled over a period of centuries (and the Torah academies, the yeshivos, also therefore became smaller and less significant). However, during that same period of time in Bavel the Jews lived for the most part under peaceful conditions. They enjoyed an autonomous rule under the 'Reish Galusa' or 'Head of the Exile', the Exilarch. The Jews of Bavel had many great yeshivos which only increased in size and in strength and in wisdom, and this is at a time when the Romans, the Byzantines, and later the Moslem conquests of the Land of Israel caused, to a large extent, the destruction and devastation of the Land of Israel and the expulsion of the Jewish inhabitants. At the same time in Bavel (which was never controlled by the Romans or the Byzantines) the Jews under the Moslem Caliphate were able to live their lives as Jews and Torah study flourished. As a result of this historical reality, the center of gravity in the Jewish world and the Torah world naturally shifted from the Land of Israel to Bavel (Babylon). For this reason, the Talmud Bavli became the standard text for the Jewish People. (Talmud Yerushalmi was interrupted c. 350 CE when the Romans suppressed Jewish scholarship in the Land of Israel resulting in most of the Talmudic scholars fleeing to Bavel where the Talmud was later finalized.)

The Written Law (Torah) and the Oral Law (Talmud) are inseparable. Hashem dictated, Moshe wrote; this is the Torah, the written tradition. Hashem taught, Moshe transmitted; this is the oral tradition preserved in the Talmud. The Written Law cannot be kept without the Oral Law. The Talmud explains HOW to do what Torah tells us to do. The Torah gives us rules, the Talmud tells us the parameters. The basic blueprint is the Torah (Written) and the details are the Talmud (Oral). The Oral Torah is to the Written Torah, what a picture is to words. Both were given to Moshe by Hashem at Har Sinai. In the Torah, wherever you find the Hebrew word for Torah in its plural form, it is always accompanied by the phrase 'Baino uVain Bnai Yisroel', that the Torahs are only between Hashem and the Jewish People. The Oral Law is what distinguishes the Jews from everyone else; it is the basis of Hashem's covenant with the Jewish People. The only way to protect the integrity of the Jewish People as a distinguished collective is by concealing the majority of the information from the nations. This was done through the Oral Law, also known as the Oral Torah. Hashem even says He didn't give all the details in the Written Torah for this very reason (lest we be counted the same as the nations): "Echtov loy rubay torasi k'moi zor nechshovu." He makes it clear that the greater part of the Torah was not written. There are numerous examples in the Tenach itself where the prophets chasten the Jewish People for a violation of the Oral Law. We can see from the earliest times of the prophets that they followed the Oral Law.

The Oral Law (Talmud) that explains the details of the Written Law (Torah) was written down finally in Mishnaic Hebrew that is very Aramaic-y (Mishnah) and Aramaic that is very Hebrew-y (Gemoro) following the destruction of the Second Temple and the subsequent fall of Bethar which resulted in the final exile of the Jews. The writing down of the once orally transmitted tradition was born out of distress and destruction and served as a means to keep the tradition sealed within the nation in spite of the far-flung Diasporic scattering. Now to have written down the Oral Law was forbidden; it was oral, meant to be transmitted from Sage to student, generation to generation, from the time it was given to Moshe by Hashem at Sinai. But Rebbi Yehuda HaNasi, a direct descendant from the House of Dovid, and in charge of passing on the Oral Law to the next generation, saw that we were being scattered throughout the whole world and if we don't preserve this now, we are going to lose it (resulting in the inability to keep the Torah), so he chose to write it down and it was called the Mishnah. Comes Rov Ashi, Ravina and their disciples, who compiled the Gemoro, the Talmud. Rebbi Hanasi, Rov Ashi and Ravina were all direct-line recipients of the Oral Law that was passed down from Moshe Rabeinu at Sinai. This is the Oral Torah, the Talmud. Since the Oral Torah has been kept within the Jewish nation, to understand the details and parameters regarding all the various mitzvois, one would require the assistance of a learned Jew, a rov. Thus, the greater part of the Torah must, and will, remain an oral tradition.

Do these differ in interpretations?

There are some practices (e.g., prayer liturgy) found only in Yerushalmi, and others only in Bavli, thus we use both. In terms of differences between the Talmudim, there are the extensive works "אמרי במערבא" by הרב אחיקם קשת and "מאור עינים" by מנחם מנדל הוכשטין (the latter of whom cites רבי שלמה לוריא) which go into great detail. Neither were published in English and I'm not going to post the translations here, but if you can read Hebrew you will find what you are looking for.

Ok, I see what you mean. Well, at the same token Arabs enslaved people from Cush (Africa) for over a thousand years. Not that I minimize what the Ottoman Turks have done in Eastern Europe to slavic people, but wouldn't it be more logically to see them as Japheth's offspring?

The medieval designation of the Bohemian lands as 'C'na'an' is not about the Slavs being his literal offspring; rather, it is about their straits, or difficulties (their enslavement), resembling that of C'na'an's. It was C'na'an who was cursed to be a slave, not his uncle Yafes.

 

[Koichos]

We are going into Tisha B'Av soon, and Shabbes is the day after, so, assuming this dialogue continues, I won't be back until next week.