Shogun (FX/Hulu) - February 2024 :ohhh:

OGBobbyJohnson

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When Lady Fuji hit Anjin with divorce papers
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nikka lmaoooooo
 
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No, they didnt pledge their armies to Ishido, they pledged it to the heir and the banner. That's why it was so important for Ishido to have the banner. The banner legitimizes their side and makes toranaga's side the bad side.

The vision showed that once the banner isnt present for Ishido, they would turn on Ishido on the field.

least that's how I saw it, they would turn on him on the battlefield. :yeshrug:






I agree, which is why I said he would surrender. Ishido isn't about to fight the heir's army.
 

LOST IN THE SAUCE

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Did they ever explain why Ochiba hated Toronaga? I thought there would be a reveal, but I don't remember seeing anything.

They set her up to be the secret big bad/behind the scenes mastermind, and implied it was some kind of get back at Toronaga. In the end she flipped on Ishida, but it was clearly shown earlier that he was just her pawn, doing her bidding. I can't tell what's happening there. I get that Mariko dying due to Ishida's actions whittled away her motivation to go to war, and thus her alliance with Ishida, but I don't think they ever explained what her motive was in the first place.
 
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Did they ever explain why Ochiba hated Toronaga? I thought there would be a reveal, but I don't remember seeing anything.

They set her up to be the secret big bad/behind the scenes mastermind, and implied it was some kind of get back at Toronaga. In the end she flipped on Ishida, but it was clearly shown earlier that he was just her pawn, doing her bidding. I can't tell what's happening there. I get that Mariko dying due to Ishida's actions whittled away her motivation to go to war, and thus her alliance with Ishida, but I don't think they ever explained what her motive was in the first place.


Ochiba basically blamed Toranaga for being the one who set up Mariko’s father to murder HER father, the former Taiko (leader) then she got sold off as one of the wives and or consorts of the new Taiko and had his baby, the heir. She was one of the few who knew what Taranaga was about and how cunning he was.

The senior wife who died implored her to let the hostage families go. The senior wife also resented Ishibo, Ochiba basically had a slight change of heart when she saw what her former friend Mariko was willing to sacrifice for Toranaga’s victory and the honorless depths Ishibo would sink to.

She basically put her hatred aside and backed the team that was always going to win. Mariko was willing to die to ensure Toranaga’s W so in my mind it was implied that Ochiba was spiritually backing Mariko.
 
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Ochiba basically blamed Toranaga for being the one who set up Mariko’s father to murder HER father, the former Taiko (leader) then she got sold off as one of the wives and or consorts of the new Taiko and had his baby, the heir. She was one of the few who knew what Taranaga was about and how cunning he was.

The senior wife who died implored her to let the hostage families go. The senior wife also resented Ishibo, Ochiba basically had a slight change of heart when she saw what her former friend Mariko was willing to sacrifice for Toranaga’s victory and the honorless depths Ishibo would sink to.

She basically put her hatred aside and backed the team that was always going to win. Mariko was willing to die to ensure Toranaga’s W so in my mind it was implied that Ochiba was spiritually backing Mariko.



Plus she was right all along about his secret heart. Toranaga always wanted to be shogun, and to do that, he would in essence have to basically usurp the power of her son. So that was another reason for her to hate him. She knew his plan all along.

Another way to look at this series is to see Toranaga as the villain. But alas, the history books are written by the winner and Toranaga is the hero of his own story.
 

ALTRUISM

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When Yabu started giving a lists of gruesome deaths, I forgot that Yabu had a fascination with death that was revealed in ep 1. That's probably why Yabu gave Toranega the :youngsabo: look right before the end

Dude was instantly a very fascinating and captivating character from just that episode. They definitely would've found a way to make him become a main-stay if this show was longer. :to:
 

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Another way to look at this series is to see Toranaga as the villain.

You could but from the creator:

Marks: It’s identical to how he’s portrayed in the book. That’s so amazing to me. It’s a pretty bold ending, after 1,200 pages, to come down to that moment. The only difference is that Toranaga reveals that secret heart to the reader and the reader alone. In our story, we wanted it to be with Yabushige as he beckons his death because we knew we were sending Yabushige into oblivion. So it was the perfect well to whisper into, to use In the Mood for Love terminology.

Tokugawa Ieyasu, the real-life model for Toranaga, is a revered figure in world history and Japanese history. He’s someone who impacted 260 years of peace after a century of civil war, and he constructed Edo, which would later become Tokyo. That’s no small feat. We want to give a great man his due, if you will. Having said that—and maybe it’s a modern thing—I always feel in the back of my mind this concern when it comes to how we tell stories and craft the mythology of great men. It was part of the reason we reminded the audience of Fuji’s baby, who had to die so Tokyo could someday live.
 

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Did they ever explain why Ochiba hated Toronaga? I thought there would be a reveal, but I don't remember seeing anything.

They set her up to be the secret big bad/behind the scenes mastermind, and implied it was some kind of get back at Toronaga. In the end she flipped on Ishida, but it was clearly shown earlier that he was just her pawn, doing her bidding. I can't tell what's happening there. I get that Mariko dying due to Ishida's actions whittled away her motivation to go to war, and thus her alliance with Ishida, but I don't think they ever explained what her motive was in the first place.
To add to what @Ziggiy said, the senior wife (who originally selected Ochiba to be the consort) told both Toranaga and Ochiba separately that they should have an alliance marriage. Also Ochiba herself didn't fukk with Ishido either and was allied with him out of convenience.

Ochiba, since she is a mastermind, put aside her hate for Toranaga and ultimately sided with him because he would give her the best chance for survival.

Toranaga's thoughts on Ochiba
ochiba.png


ochiba2.png

Ochiba about Toranaga
ochiba4.png


ochiba3.png
 

MajesticLion

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To add to what @Ziggiy said, the senior wife (who originally selected Ochiba to be the consort) told both Toranaga and Ochiba separately that they should have an alliance marriage. Also Ochiba herself didn't fukk with Ishido either and was allied with him out of convenience.

Ochiba, since she is a mastermind, put aside her hate for Toranaga and ultimately sided with him because he would give her the best chance for survival.

Toranaga's thoughts on Ochiba
ochiba.png


ochiba2.png

Ochiba about Toranaga
ochiba4.png


ochiba3.png



That's it, time for another reread :blessed:
 
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