say cuz, why was there a camera on a deserted street in the middle of no where, where tony starks...

[AnonymityX1000]

Yeah everyone knew Bucky was a Hydra assassin
No one knew except Hydra upper echelon that Bucky killed the Starks directly, but seeing the missing serum, Shield had to have concluded they were assasinated internally, if they didn't they would be the worst intelligence agency in the history of movies.
Again no problem with the tape, that said Cap telling Tony he knew makes no sense to the story, if he knew how would he have known if it was internal Shield files, Tony would have known himself seeing that he was still haunted by the deaths. Also if he had known that his parents were assasinated after TWS, he would have had aple opportunity to tell Tony pre-civil War, before the Bucky situation directly.

All of it adds up to movie illogic to get to that point and that scene to jusitfy a fight there.

In my opinion that is poor writing and a plot hole since that Cap presents isnt shown.

SHIELD and Hydra were different sides of the same coin. Cap could have known any number of ways. Bucky could have told him (off camera), the file Black Widow gave him could have mentioned it, he could have put two and two together after the Zola monologue in the bunker.
Tony was haunted by the deaths of his parents because he didn't say good bye not because he suspected foul play. He didn't, he thought his parents just died in a car accident. And that's the crux of the matter, Cap didn't tell Tony. He thought he was sparing Tony's feelings by keeping it secret, when he was really just sparing himself an uncomfortable situation. Cap says this at the end of the movie.

 

[David_TheMan]

Again..... we talking about a 3-7 hour flight from America to a foreign country

Is it even possible that couldve came up during in route discussion? I mean really?

Again think about from the time they took flight till when they landed and all the shyt Tony was able to do?

No way in hell he was able to get Rhodey to a hospital, see his surgery, a ticket for Spidy back to NY, securing and transporting of prisoners, debriefing with his superiors, then going to that secret prison and talking to the captives all in 30 mins and still be able to meet Bucky and Cap when they arrive

Bucky didn't even know he did it until he saw the tape, how would he talk about something he didn't remember?

 

[NobodyReally]

Martha actually made perfect sense and has been explained on here countless times. Posters like @Boolean must be retarded

The 'Martha' plot device was retarded. At no point had Clark ever called his mom 'Martha', but that's what he calls her when he's about to die?

Or @ the end of Winter Soldier Black Widow gives Cap a top secret dossier on everything Bucky. It could mention in there he killed or is suspected to have killed H. Stark. There are a number of ways Cap could have known.

I don't think it was in there, that file was really thin.

how did the badguy know that tony would follow captain america to that bunker or whatever it was

He didn't. But think about it. If Tony hadn't followed Cap, he could have just revealed it to Tony another way. The point wasn't to get them to fight, but to hate each other. Whether Tony followed or not, Zola would have given Tony that tape or found a way to let him see it, same outcome either way.

Welp.... looks like this thread is done (open and shut case Johnson)

So let's recap all the opportunities Cap could've got that info;

From the dossier report from Black Widow in Cap 2,

From the time he captured Bucky and had him stuck in the vice interrogating him,

On the trip to meet Peggy's niece to get their equipment,

On that 3-10hr international flight from American to whichever foreign country that Hydra base was located .

Conclusion..... no plot hole....all that is plausible.

Time to move on


-Fred...... no....


-Martha

Yeah everyone knew Bucky was a Hydra assassin
No one knew except Hydra upper echelon that Bucky killed the Starks directly, but seeing the missing serum, Shield had to have concluded they were assasinated internally, if they didn't they would be the worst intelligence agency in the history of movies.

Again no problem with the tape, that said Cap telling Tony he knew makes no sense to the story, if he knew how would he have known if it was internal Shield files, Tony would have known himself seeing that he was still haunted by the deaths. Also if he had known that his parents were assasinated after TWS, he would have had aple opportunity to tell Tony pre-civil War, before the Bucky situation directly.

All of it adds up to movie illogic to get to that point and that scene to jusitfy a fight there.

In my opinion that is poor writing and a plot hole since that Cap presents isnt shown.

That's only IF Howard was being straight and transparent and Shield knew about the serum/brief case. I don't think it's totally implausible that Howard was doing something really shady with that serum case. Why was he even taking his wife on a vacation while transporting it? Cause he was doing some deep cover spy shyt probably. Maybe with someone outside of Shield who had Hydra contacts. Howard seems mad shady anyway. I honestly think he knew Bucky wasn't dead, maybe even had a hand in creating the Winter Soldier project. Why else would he have five vials of the serum on him? Come to think of it, he named Bucky right off at the site. For a dude that was supposed to be dead, Howard didn't seem that surprised to see him.

 

[chico25]

Yeah everyone knew Bucky was a Hydra assassin
No one knew except Hydra upper echelon that Bucky killed the Starks directly, but seeing the missing serum, Shield had to have concluded they were assasinated internally, if they didn't they would be the worst intelligence agency in the history of movies.
Again no problem with the tape, that said Cap telling Tony he knew makes no sense to the story, if he knew how would he have known if it was internal Shield files, Tony would have known himself seeing that he was still haunted by the deaths. Also if he had known that his parents were assasinated after TWS, he would have had aple opportunity to tell Tony pre-civil War, before the Bucky situation directly.

All of it adds up to movie illogic to get to that point and that scene to jusitfy a fight there.

In my opinion that is poor writing and a plot hole since that Cap presents isnt shown.

Cap never told Tony his parents were assassinated, it wasn't in the Shield files, it was in the deeply encrypted hydra files that Tony didn't have time to go through because it was everything Hydra did since WW2. The Avengers probably focused on the recent files that they could use to bring down current members and stop current plans. Zemo only found out as much as he knew because he was motivated to find something to use against the team and he had a lot of free time.

Cap told Tony he knew because he had enough info to suspect the whole truth and enough proof that he could have let Tony know enough to give him a reason to dig deeper and find proof. Cap didn't want to know so he let Tony keep believing it was a car accident.

 

[NobodyReally]

Bucky didn't even know he did it until he saw the tape, how would he talk about something he didn't remember?

Bucky knew when the tape started. He looks down all guilty. Later when Tony asks if he remembers, he says "I remember all of them."

 

[David_TheMan]

SHIELD and Hydra were different sides of the same coin. Cap could have known any number of ways. Bucky could have told him (off camera), the file Black Widow gave him could have mentioned it, he could have put two and two together after the Zola monologue in the bunker.
Tony was haunted by the deaths of his parents because he didn't say good bye not because he suspected foul play. He didn't, he thought his parents just died in a car accident. And that's the crux of the matter, Cap didn't tell Tony. He thought he was sparing Tony's feelings by keeping it secret, when he was really just sparing himself an uncomfortable situation. Cap says this at the end of the movie.

How was he sparing him a uncomfortable situation? It literally wouldn't even be uncomfortable at all to tell a friend we think your parents were murdered by the people we are dedicate to fighting against.

I like the movie but that was a huge plot problem for me.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Bucky didn't even know he did it until he saw the tape, how would he talk about something he didn't remember?

He totally knew. You need to see the movie again (now available on Netflix ).

Tony: "Do you even remember them?!"
Bucky: "I remember ALL of them."

 

[AnonymityX1000]

How was he sparing him a uncomfortable situation? It literally wouldn't even be uncomfortable at all to tell a friend we think your parents were murdered by the people we are dedicate to fighting against.

I like the movie but that was a huge plot problem for me.

It would have been more like, "Oh BTW, my best friend who I am currently hunting down to save him from a life of murder, espionage and brainwashing. He probably killed your parents. Please let that slide, because as I said I'm currently trying to save his life."

 

[David_TheMan]

Bucky knew when the tape started. He looks down all guilty. Later when Tony asks if he remembers, he says "I remember all of them."

You are right about that.
I would say again though that the way he acts and the way cap acts further leads credence to my point that Cap and Bucky didn't talk about it.

 

[chico25]

How was he sparing him a uncomfortable situation? It literally wouldn't even be uncomfortable at all to tell a friend we think your parents were murdered by the people we are dedicate to fighting against.

I like the movie but that was a huge plot problem for me.

You forgot to add " and I suspect my best friend might have been the one to kill them". Even if he had been wrong, in the back of his mind Cap thought Bucky might have killed them and didn't want to dig deeper possibly be proven right.

If Tony found out his parents were murdered by hydra he would do everything he could to find the person that pulled the proverbial trigger.

 

[David_TheMan]

It would have been more like, "Oh BTW, my best friend who I am currently hunting down to save him from a life of murder, espionage and brainwashing. He probably killed your parents. Please let that slide, because as I said I'm currently trying to save his life."

If he knew it was Bucky already its a plot hole, because how did he know.
If he knew his parents were killedy by Hydra, but had no idea it was Bucky who killed them, it would literally change nothing.
The only way it holds theatic weight IMO is if Cap knew Bucky directly murdered them.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

If he knew it was Bucky already its a plot hole, because how did he know.
If he knew his parents were killedy by Hydra, but had no idea it was Bucky who killed them, it would literally change nothing.
The only way it holds theatic weight IMO is if Cap knew Bucky directly murdered them.

• There are three ways he could have known already pointed out to you. Bucky could have told him off camera, Zola's insinuations in WS could have informed him, the Black Widow file could have said as much. Yes, it isn't spelled out anywhere in clear black and white.
• He meaning Cap knew or at least suspected it was indeed Bucky who laid down the murder gameon H. Stark.
• Cap SAID he knew when asked by Tony directly. Is he lying? I doubt it and he could have found out a number of ways (see first bullet point).

 

[hex]

Yeah that is more than a stretch to try to conclude that from that small conversation and picture of a dead stark and a presumed dead Fury that Cap figured all that shyt out to the point he knew Bucky killed Tony's parents.

Zola said "when history didn't cooperate, history was changed" and it showed The Winter Soldier. Directly after that he said "accidents will happen" and it showed Tony's dad.

People put two and two together long before "Civil War" came out. This is a full year before "Civil War":



It's not a stretch at all, unless you think Captain America couldn't come to the same conclusion a random guy on Youtube did. Not to mention there was articles about it before "Civil War" came out.

Fred.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Bucky knew when the tape started. He looks down all guilty. Later when Tony asks if he remembers, he says "I remember all of them."

On a side note if Bucky remembers 'all of them' isn't his entire 'oh I'm normal now', and 'oh I'm inbrainwash killer assassin mode' more of a sham then he is letting on?
Like when Cap first confronts him in Bucharest he's straight lying to Cap's face. And then when escaping he is being carefree about killing cops soldiers and Cap is like , "Stop it Buck! you're gonna kill somebody!"
And Buck is like *bodyslam*, "I'm not gonna kill anyone." *punch aimed at Cap's grill that really just gets him to his essential getaway bag*.
Then he proceeds to lay the murder game down no problem while escaping.
Bucky is cold fukkin' blooded.

 

[hex]

On a side note if Bucky remembers 'all of them' isn't his entire 'oh I'm normal now', and 'oh I'm inbrainwash killer assassin mode' more of a sham then he is letting on?
Like when Cap first confronts him in Bucharest he's straight lying to Cap's face. And then when escaping he is being carefree about killing cops soldiers and Cap is like , "Stop it Buck! you're gonna kill somebody!"
And Buck is like *bodyslam*, "I'm not gonna kill anyone." *punch aimed at Cap's grill that really just gets him to his essential getaway bag*.
Then he proceeds to lay the murder game down no problem while escaping.
Bucky is cold fukkin' blooded.

I think TWS feels bad about the people he was made to kill but dude is by definition a soldier. They came to kill him so he tried to kill them back.

Fred.