Rican HipHop pioneers giving the dates of when they entered/first saw HipHop being done. They were not there from the start by their own admissions!
- Thread starter IllmaticDelta
- Start date
You literally have been saying nothing all thoroughly this thread. That's a skill and talent as well.
For this reason you remain a king in the shadow of us. Always behind.
"Fat Joe: I was D.I.T.C. from day one, we all grew up in the same projects. Me and Diamond used to write graffiti together, I used to hang out with Finesse."
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We need some names, if you don't mind us asking. So give us some names of those who were these early people you talk about between 1970 and 1975. Give us places and dates!Jesus christ ya still yapping about this same subject. Ya can go as hard as ya want to go, the fact is you're not going to go up the bronx today in 2022 and change people's opinions
Ya can discredit Latinos all ya want, it's not going to change the fact multiple generations grew up in a Hip hop culture from the day they was born
One of the main problems here, is you guys are trying to call anyone not FBAS "culture vultures" because "there's no recorded history of not even one latino/Caribbean involved in hip hop between 1970 and 1975. Therefore every latino/Caribbean after those years is a culture vulture.. get off our dikk"
If thats the case, the Westcoast, down south and mid west are all culture vultures for biting off NYC shyt. Anyone born after 1975 is a biter. Why ya couldn't come up with your own shyt in the west coast? Down south? Why ya biting nyc for?
Majority of you Here are not from NYC and DO NOT KNOW the landscape of the bronx or its demographics. Quote whoever you want, none of those people can say they knew EVERY SINGLE person in the bronx that pushed the culture in their neighborhood.
There so many hood legends in NY that no one will ever know about in a city this populated, but you guys think you have all the answers in one book? The only Latinos that were involved are the ones you heard about on the internet?
Keep going hard fellas
Show: N.A.M.E.S. PLACES and DATES!
"Rhymin' was a fad in the days of my dad
Now MC's is makin G's and goin' for bad
The X in my name makes it all official"
Ragtime - Wikipedia
Just Ice - Going Way Back
[Intro: Just Ice and KRS One]
To the best of my knowledge I guess that I'm fresh
And when I manifest I never protest
(Hold it, hold it. What's going on, Just?)
Yo KRS, what's the, what's the, what's the purpose of you stopping me?
(Yo man kick the rhymes you was just kicking to me a while ago)
Aight
[Verse 1: Just Ice]
I'll wax and maim, rappers who proclaim
To be the epitome of this game
Fronting like you hard, rugged and rough
Soft like butter, creamy like a puff
On the mic no sense, head very dense
Just listen to the gangster and I will convince
All that doubt my power of speech
The title of the gangster they tried to impeach
But um, it is protected by the black and the red
It's not true all gangsters are dead
Not a gangster with a gun, doing crime none of that
Kill a MC with the rhyme cause I'm the gangster of rap
In fact, exact, I'm the dominant black
Coming full force on, and power that's packed
For all the party people this is a fact
For all the pioneers I'm going way back
[Bridge: KRS One]
Goddamn, that is funky funky funky fresh (Dope! Dope!)
If you could just keep kicking that, we'll be alright til '88
Dig it (Dope! Dope!)
[Verse 2: Just Ice]
Going way way back to the early days
Of 75 and the Black Spades
Chilling with my homeboy Muscle Man Ron
In the Boogie Down Bronx BKA Pelan
It was a privilege for people to see
Bambaataa rocking hard at 123
On a Friday night the boys would come running
To hear big beats that were shocking and stunning
In the Hill, not a thing was chill
Sound Masters on the loose and acting ill
Up top, every weekend rock
Either 131 or around that block
But anywhere Uptown, you always heard the sound
Hip Hop, funky beats, MCs getting down
The truth I swear, admit and declare
The Bronx was the first, I know, I was there
The beats were dope, the sound was on
By the way saying Peace to my brother Melquan
Dedications have a little bit more
The L Brothers, Grand Wizard Theodore
I can't forget where we used to ill
With the young Sound Masters in Castle Hill
I can keep going on, for more and more
With Breakout, and Baron, and the Funky 4
On the other side of town, the mics in their hands
The lecherous, treacherous also perpetuous MCs cold in command
And if you listen to that for an actual fact
For all the pioneers I'm going way back
[Bridge: KRS One]
Word! Now you know I know
This is KRS with Just Ice (Dope! Dope!)
Ha ha. Talk about dope beats (Dope!)
Yo Just, kick me one more verse, please!
[Verse 3: Just Ice]
Let's rest, so I can take a breath
Cause I'm bearing the truth and nothing less
No disrepect intended but I have to show ya
If I didn't say your name that means I did not know ya
To get to the point, to make it clear
If I don't say your name that means you was not there
It's true, I'm from the old school
I'm the professor and they are my pupils
I teach and never preach
Not a bloodsucker, parasite or a leech
I'm telling you how, it was or is
The Bronx is the home for the Hip Hop kids
A long time ago when I was raising hell
With the nappy head of hair at the age of 12
I saw and heard, crews that rocked
The Cold Crushers, Monsters, Breakout, Sasquatch
You're not familiar with the funky sound
That proves it right there, you wasn't down
Had to earn a position, and do hard work
You can ask Kool Herc or my man Red Alert
He'll tell ya, because he knows for sure
About Flash, EZ Mike, and the Furious Four
I'll run off some names, with no offence
Listen up real close, as I commence
Coke La Rock, Clark Kent, my man Cool Fish
Homeboy Tre Dee and Frisky Frisk
Wonderful sincere, in the atmosphere
Almighty Kay Gee at Union Square
Dr. Kik rock on, and my man Shelt La Rocker
B.I., KRS, C Rasta
Definitely we would rock
And I can't forget my homeboy Big Knot
It's the truth and for an actual fact
For all the pioneers I'm going way back
[Outro: KRS One and Just Ice]
Well I think that's about as far back as we can go
(Saying peace to my man T La Rock!)
Word! Saying peace to my brother Scott La Rock, he's in here!
(Scott La Rock rock on!)
Word
(DMX peace!)
Peace!
(Peace!)
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Blues harmony, scales, rhythm and tonalityaka ADOSian to the core
And no matter how he "plays" it:
"Jazz harmony at its structural and aesthetic level is based predominantly on African matrices,..."
The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices on JSTOR
Gerhard Kubik, The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices, Black Music Research Journal, Vol. 25, No. 1/2 (Spring - Fall, 2005), pp. 167-222
www.jstor.org
"The results of the craniometric analysis indicated that the majority of the York population had European origins, but that 11% of the Trentholme Drive and 12% of The Railway study samples were likely of African decent."
(Leach et al. 2009, Migration and diversity in Roman Britain: a multidisciplinary approach to the identification of immigrants in Roman York, England)
Too Many Blackamoors: Deportation, Discrimination, and Elizabeth I on JSTOR
Emily C. Bartels, Too Many Blackamoors: Deportation, Discrimination, and Elizabeth I, Studies in English Literature, 1500-1900, Vol. 46, No. 2, Tudor and Stuart Drama (Spring, 2006), pp. 305-322
www.jstor.org
"John Blanke was part of a long medieval and renaissance tradition of black musicians serving at European royal courts. In the 12th century, the Holy Roman Emperor Henry VI had black trumpeters in his entourage and in the 16th century James IV of Scotland employed a drummer who was a Muslim-Moor
The rivalry between England and France may have further prompted the French to employ black trumpeters, just as Henry VII and Henry VIII had employed John Blanke.
A French tapestry depicting the famous Field of Cloth of Gold tournament of 1520 shows a black trumpeter whose trumpet banner displays the fleur-de-lis, the royal emblem of France."
"Also, given the fact that the Tudor court employed musicians from all over Europe, Blanke could have come from Spain, Portugal, or Italy, as these countries had an increasingly large African population."
The Tudor Society - The Tudor Society
Join the best group of Tudor lovers, historians and experts there is worldwide. With monthly magazines, expert talks, weekly videos and much more... try now
www.tudorsociety.com
These negroes played in harmony, way back in the 15th century…:
There were hundreds of Africans in Tudor England – and none of them slaves: Black Tudors, Miranda Kaufmann, review
"This is important because the few modern historians who have written about Africans in Tudor England suggest that they were all slaves, or transient immigrants who were considered as dangerous strangers and the epitome of otherness. However, this book will show that some Africans in England had important occupations in Tudor society, and were employed by powerful people because of the skills they possessed.
~Onyeka, Blackamoores: Africans in Tudor England, Their Presence, Status and Origins
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About the Archive
This is a digitized version of an article from The Times’s print archive, before the start of online publication in 1996. To preserve these articles as they originally appeared, The Times does not alter, edit or update them.
Occasionally the digitization process introduces transcription errors or other problems; we are continuing to work to improve these archived versions.
"The jackets are called colors. Em blazoned on the back with ominously colorful symbols of machismo, they parody the style of the archetypal out law gang, the Hell's Angels.
Savage Nomads, Black Spades, Sev age Skulls, Ghetto Brothers: the street gangs that died unmourned in the late 1950's are back with a vengeance and with a chilling expertise in professional killing.
Last week, two incidents in New York's South Bronx underscored that proficiency. In the first, four supposed gang members, armed with pistols and a rifle, stopped three youths, asked their identity and gang affiliation, and then lined them up against a tenement wall and opened fire. The next day, two gang members opened fire on three youths returning home from their jobs. The toll was one dead, three wounded.
Police officials, fearing incitement, have been reluctant to term the incidents gang‐related, but the street ver sion is that the shootings were part of a war between two of the largest gangs, the Bachelors and the Black Spades, stemming from a Bachelor hold‐up of a Spade‐protected drug pusher.
New York is not the only city that has seen a resurgence of gang activity. In Philadelphia, gang warfare has claimed 92 lives within the past three years; in Los Angeles, the death toll was 32 last year.
In New York, the spawning ground for gangs has been the South Bronx, where low‐income housing projects, like brick cliffs, hide the rotting tenements and storefronts of one of the nation's worst slums. Forty per cent of the neighborhood's residents are on welfare, 30 per cent are unemployed. Gang activity increased noticeably late in 1969, and by last summer had spread to virtually every neighborhood in the Bronx. By this spring, gang violence had spread to the other boroughs, but the Bronx remains the center. There were 34 gang homicides there last year and there have been 13 so far this year.
Police count 100 “fighting” gangs in the Bronx. Estimates of gang member ship (about 70 per cent Puerto Rican, the rest, mostly blacks) run as high as 11,000. The Bronx Youth Gang Police Task Force, little more than year old, has over 3,000 dossiers on gang members.
And gangs are no longer confined to one neighborhood turf. One gang, the Black Spades, has divisions (small gang groups) in practically every police precinct in the Bronx; another, the Savage Skulls, has divisions as far away as Jamaica, Queens.
“The thing feeds on itself,” says Deputy Insp. William Lakeland of the Bronx task force. “The more gangs there are, the more new ones form, in order to protect the kid who doesn't belong.”
Mirroring the nomadic ‘ existence that is a fact of ghetto life In the Bronx, many gang members are home less; most come from broken homes. The need to belong to something, to anything, is a strong motivation for joining. The gang offers family, shelter, protection.
The groups are usually dominated by four or five older members: the president, vice‐president, and war lord, and one or two other top brawlers. They are backed by a dozen or so hard‐core members, and several hangers‐on who sweep the floors and steal the wine and beer. The members range in age from 10 to 20, though there are some gangs with older members who devote their attention to crimes such as robbery.
Some gangs have initiation rites where the entire membership participates in beating the new member with chains and pipes. Joining is easy. But leaving is a different story. When one member announced he was quitting the Savage Skulls, he was found a few days later, shot to death outside the gang's clubhouse.
Living quarters are usually an apartment in a burned‐out tenement, or basement in a still‐occupied building. Gangs have been known to set fire to buildings to force out tenants. Others have extorted free rentals from landlords or superintendents.
The old‐fashioned rumble, where opposing gangs met in an open area to fight it out, is passd in the Bronx. Gang leaders now resort to quick “hits” in groups of two or three. And the zipgun, a hand‐made weapon that was as likely to maim the shooter as the intended victim, has been replaced by, handguns, rifles, and even homemade bazookas. Police searches in the first three months of this year turned up more than 400 weapons..
Fights are still touched off by the same, kinds of things as in the past: territory and women. In most gangs, the women are considered property. Some even wear jackets that carry the designation “Property of” followed by the gang name.
Drugs are a touchy subject among the gangs. Some claim’ that they have run pushers out of their neighborhoods, and that their members are forbidden to use hard drugs. Others form protection syndicates for local pushers in return for a piece of the action. Most gang members have at least a casual acquaintance with hard drugs; many, however, have switched from heroin to cocaine.
Why the resurgence in gang activity? Some sociologists believe that gang activity and drug addiction are the two major outlets for the frustrations of ghetto youths. When one out let is closed off by the larger society, as was gang activity in the late fifties, or loses its cachet as the leveling off of addict population seems to indicate for heroin addiction, then the remaining one becomes fashionable.
Others believe that neighborhoods such as the. South Bronx, where urban blight is perpetual, create such despair that gangs, seeking to protect their territory, are inevitable. Now, as in the past, efforts are being made to channel gang groups into recreational activities or community projects. But the social conditions in many Bronx neighborhoods remain so bleak that such efforts are at best a stopgap.
They have nowhere to go,” says Dr. Richard A. Cloward, professor of social work at Columbia University's School of Social Work, “and the fundamental problems remain.”
—GARY HOENIG
The Fighting Gangs (Published 1973)
G Hoenig article on resurgence of street gangs in South Bronx recalls shootings of 6 youths during wk of June 10 in war between gangs; gang operations detailed; illus
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
European harmony is still a part of jazz as is blues.
I guess jazz is European
Jazz Harmony is different from European harmony
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Sindicated
Knowledge is the Greatest gift
Here is more on how Hip Hop relates to other Black American music and cultural patterns, represented by Dr. Randy: Black American Music Tree.
Its great being FBA mfers can talk shyt but we know the facts.
Hate all you want you cant take away plethora of accomplishments of people.
I need to get a flag.
Sindicated
Knowledge is the Greatest gift
Hip Hop wouldnt exist without those undeniable FBA genres so even if Non FBA did create hip hop we can then turn it back around and said you jocked us sampled our music to make yours.Jesus christ ya still yapping about this same subject. Ya can go as hard as ya want to go, the fact is you're not going to go up the bronx today in 2022 and change people's opinions
Ya can discredit Latinos all ya want, it's not going to change the fact multiple generations grew up in a Hip hop culture from the day they was born
One of the main problems here, is you guys are trying to call anyone not FBAS "culture vultures" because "there's no recorded history of not even one latino/Caribbean involved in hip hop between 1970 and 1975. Therefore every latino/Caribbean after those years is a culture vulture.. get off our dikk
If thats the case, the Westcoast, down south and mid west are all culture vultures for biting off NYC shyt. Anyone born after 1975 is a biter. Why ya couldn't come up with your own shyt in the west coast? Down south? Why ya biting nyc for?
Majority of you Here are not from NYC and DO NOT KNOW the landscape of the bronx or its demographics. Quote whoever you want, none of those people can say they knew EVERY SINGLE person in the bronx that pushed the culture in their neighborhood.
There so many hood legends in NY that no one will ever know about in a city this populated, but you guys think you have all the answers in one book? The only Latinos that were involved are the ones you heard about on the internet?
So at the end of the day it all starts with us thats the reality, take blues, funk, soul, gospel, rock, disco, and James Brown HIMSELF away aint no hip hop point blank period.
Jazz Harmony is different from European harmony
Of course it's different, it built up on it and changed, same as hip-hop being different from the shyt it came from. It's still a part of it.
Are you telling me right now that European classical music had zero influence on the formation of jazz music?
Yawn,… what “influence” would there be and have been? Do you even know what traditional “European” music sounds like? lol Black American music sounds nothing alike.
"Jazz harmony at its structural and aesthetic level is based predominantly on African matrices,..."
The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices on JSTOR
Gerhard Kubik, The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices, Black Music Research Journal, Vol. 25, No. 1/2 (Spring - Fall, 2005), pp. 167-222
www.jstor.org
Hip Hop quintessentially has the same elements, all throughout the course of this evolution.
1979
1989
1999
2009
2019
2022 bonus
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IllmaticDelta
Veteran
HipHop transitioned to a subculture within/from the same population that gave it, each element of its roots. It wasn't really different from its roots, it was just presented in a different/newer context
In a loose sense jazz came from a creolization process that the ADOS population nurtured for around 270 years. As far as the music and dance of HipHop go, it's easy to pull up the receipts of its antecedents because they're very clear cut and recent. Jazz on the other hand is impossible to do this to from either the African POV or the Euro POV.
When euros first heard jazz, they thought the afram musicians had trick instruments as they wondered how were they producing those sounds
jazz was so different, that it couldn't be properly notated using Western/Classical harmonic notation
.
.
Africans were like
as they first heard the distinct afram drumming and wondered how they were producing the sounds of numerous drummers; only to later learn, that Aframs had invented the drum kit and a 4 limb independent polyrhythmic style to go with it that they never saw/heard before
HipHop transitioned to a subculture within/from the same population that gave it, each element of its roots. It wasn't really different from its roots, it was just presented in a different/newer context
In a loose sense jazz came from a creolization process that the ADOS population nurtured for around 270 years. As far as the music and dance of HipHop go, it's easy to pull up the receipts of its antecedents because they're very clear cut and recent. Jazz on the other hand is impossible to do this to from either the African POV or the Euro POV.
When euros first heard jazz, they thought the afram musicians had trick instruments as they wondered how were they producing those sounds
jazz was so different, that it couldn't be properly notated using Western/Classical harmonic notation
.
.
Africans were like
None of this answers my question.
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
I 100% answered your question; you probably just didn't comprehend what I posted
No, you did not answer the question. You must not have comprehended it too well.
Perhaps this can be resolved by you explaining what this specific “European influence” was / is.
The basic premise is the Black Americans started to use instruments like the piano and developed a new from on music (melodies) on that instrument, as well as other elements used European music, and therefore this is European music influence. This is a stretch to what it is, since Black Americans like anywhere else in the diaspora weren't allowed to use traditional African instruments, so Black American used the instruments that was in close proximity to them.
The difference is that maroon populations amongst others in the Diaspora were able to develop instruments, what we consider modern percussions like the Conga etc. Yet, Black Americans over time developed styles @IllmaticDelta has explained, got with what close to their proximity, including the development of the early drum-set. This allowed them to developed the Black music genres. And you haven't been able to refute him properly. We get the usual with you, which is the same "because I say so" circular arguments.
The part you don't understand is that the development of these genres is unique to Black America.
If it was recognizable by Europeans and European influence, why did they start referring to it with racist slurs in the early stages of the development, which "theoretically" would and should have been closer to the traditional European music, right? They only started to accepted it more as they were able to capitalize on it.
The argument you use is an often repeated argument, but never addresses what exactly is this so called "European influence". It's based on the "I am white and say so rhetoric". When you read a lot of the technical debates on this topic, you will see that nobody really knows.
Even your Hip Hop music argument fell apart, as I posted songs from each decade, where we heard the basic elements being repeated decade after decade. In general most experience Hip Hop music different from rap music nowadays. Hip Hop is rap, but not all rap is Hip Hop.
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