Reasons Why Outkast Will Never Be Seen As GOAT Contenders By Most Real Heads

[SirBiatch]

Purists being right is neither here or there. The point is, Nas gained a lot of fans from that crossover audience and that includes people that became fans of Illmatic and his features before Illmatic. His success is the product of what you're describing as "hybrid".

Look bruh, you can play obtuse all you want. I first heard of Nas through IWW. Nas's best work, and the stuff his legacy rides on, is on 100% hip hop material. So while IWW was a bit of a rap/RnB hybrid and certainly poppier, Nas at his core is NOT that artist. While Outkast at their core were a hybrid hip hop group. I feel like this is obvious but if you wanna play dumb, be my guest.

"All I was trying to do was be different," says Premier. "I did not want us to sound like all the other producers. Everybody was into James Brown at the time, including myself. But again I wanted to have an outlook where everybody would look upon me as original. You had to be a leader, and I thought 'Nobody is tapping into the jazz stuff, so I can go into that world and see if I can put beats together with that type of music.'"

DJ Premier |

^^^ His own words. How is him saying "so I can go into that world (in reference to the jazz stuff) and see if I can put beats together with that type of music" not a hybrid?

You have got to be kidding me. You really can't tell the difference between sampling a genre of music and putting hard ass hip hop drums/structure to it (you know, the foundation of hip hop itself) versus creating a record that straddles genres equally, giving it less of a hip hop structure and more of the structure of the other genre, lessening the hardness of the groove and replaying the drums to make it more accessible?

so when you heard Gangstarr's records, then heard Jazzmattaz, them shyts sounded equally hip hop to you? You could be hanging with a bunch of people, play Illmatic joints, play Gangstarr joints, play Mobb Deep joints, then throw on Jazzmattaz and nobody would flinch?

Organized Noize tell you specifically that they were trying to make Curtis Mayfield records on Outkast's shyt (even on their first album). From vibe all the way down to how they play the instruments and structure the songs. And you're really comparing that to Mass Appeal?

I'm done. You will play dumb till the day is over. I don't have any more time for that.

 

[Deltron]

Nas was no Hip Hop star prior to Illmatic. Having a buzz =/= being a star.

you gotta remember, homie heard illmatic 10+ years removed..so Nas was already a star to him

 

[JustCKing]

Look bruh, you can play obtuse all you want. I first heard of Nas through IWW. Nas's best work, and the stuff his legacy rides on, is on 100% hip hop material. So while IWW was a bit of a rap/RnB hybrid and certainly poppier, Nas at his core is NOT that artist. While Outkast at their core were a hybrid hip hop group. I feel like this is obvious but if you wanna play dumb, be my guest.



You have got to be kidding me. You really can't tell the difference between sampling a genre of music and putting hard ass hip hop drums/structure to it (you know, the foundation of hip hop itself) versus creating a record that straddles genres equally, giving it less of a hip hop structure and more of the structure of the other genre, lessening the hardness of the groove and replaying the drums to make it more accessible?

so when you heard Gangstarr's records, then heard Jazzmattaz, them shyts sounded equally hip hop to you? You could be hanging with a bunch of people, play Illmatic joints, play Gangstarr joints, play Mobb Deep joints, then throw on Jazzmattaz and nobody would flinch?

Organized Noize tell you specifically that they were trying to make Curtis Mayfield records on Outkast's shyt (even on their first album). From vibe all the way down to how they play the instruments and structure the songs. And you're really comparing that to Mass Appeal?

I'm done. You will play dumb till the day is over. I don't have any more time for that.

Nas at his core is that artist heard on IWW. Nobody forced him to make that album. Him coming out with what you're referring to as a "hybrid" sound got him a huge fan base, part of which were put on his older music as a result. OutKast is as Hip Hop as Nas. You're in here arguing that throwing hard Hip Hop joints on something from another genre makes it Hip Hop. How are the Kast joints not Hip Hop according to you?

The same way you're arguing yhay ONP incorporated Curtis Mayfield into their production is the same way Premo incorporates Jazz elements into his. Jazzmatazz isn't the only time Premo incorporates Jazz into his music. "Kick In The Door" is one of those joints.

 

[spliz]

Look bruh, you can play obtuse all you want. I first heard of Nas through IWW. Nas's best work, and the stuff his legacy rides on, is on 100% hip hop material. So while IWW was a bit of a rap/RnB hybrid and certainly poppier, Nas at his core is NOT that artist. While Outkast at their core were a hybrid hip hop group. I feel like this is obvious but if you wanna play dumb, be my guest.



You have got to be kidding me. You really can't tell the difference between sampling a genre of music and putting hard ass hip hop drums/structure to it (you know, the foundation of hip hop itself) versus creating a record that straddles genres equally, giving it less of a hip hop structure and more of the structure of the other genre, lessening the hardness of the groove and replaying the drums to make it more accessible?

so when you heard Gangstarr's records, then heard Jazzmattaz, them shyts sounded equally hip hop to you? You could be hanging with a bunch of people, play Illmatic joints, play Gangstarr joints, play Mobb Deep joints, then throw on Jazzmattaz and nobody would flinch?

Organized Noize tell you specifically that they were trying to make Curtis Mayfield records on Outkast's shyt (even on their first album). From vibe all the way down to how they play the instruments and structure the songs. And you're really comparing that to Mass Appeal?

I'm done. You will play dumb till the day is over. I don't have any more time for that.

But not everyone feels Nas' best work is Illmatic. ALOT of people and especially lyricists prefer IWW. Nas own brother prefers IWW. A lot of Nas' fans heard IWW and went back and listened to Illmatic. Also. I'm speaking as someone who copped these albums in real time. If nikkas gonna say what they sayin about Outkast and even IWW Nas. WHY doesnt Biggie get the same flack for Ready To Die which had lighter singles and songs on it than both Nas and Outkast did in that time frame of 94-96. Bottom line nikkas wanna bend the rules for artists they like or whatever lane they wanna box the artist in. It's all bullshyt cause honestly I look at it like this. It's proven u never gonna please everybody. So it's pointless to go broke trying to. Outkast's first album was not hybrid. If that's the case TOO many other artists who don't share the same criticism would have to be criticized. It's a slippery slope.

 

[spliz]

you gotta remember, homie heard illmatic 10+ years removed..so Nas was already a star to him

Exactly. He heard NONE of this shyt we discussing in real time.

 

[JustCKing]

But not everyone feels Nas' best work is Illmatic. ALOT of people and especially lyricists prefer IWW. Nas own brother prefers IWW. A lot of Nas' fans heard IWW and went back and listened to Illmatic. Also. I'm speaking as someone who copped these albums in real time. If nikkas gonna say what they sayin about Outkast and even IWW Nas. WHY doesnt Biggie get the same flack for Ready To Die which had lighter singles and songs on it than both Nas and Outkast did in that time frame of 94-96. Bottom line nikkas wanna bend the rules for artists they like or whatever lane they wanna box the artist in. It's all bullshyt cause honestly I look at it like this. It's proven u never gonna please everybody. So it's pointless to go broke trying to. Outkast's first album was not hybrid. If that's the case TOO many other artists who don't share the same criticism would have to be criticized. It's a slippery slope.

Pretty much the gist of it.

The agenda is clear. That hybrid argument is thrown around to discredit any successful artist that someone doesn't approve of. It's to say their sales and recognition are illegitimate.

 

[jackson35]

whose's reason are u arguing? black hiphop heads who got real taste have mad love for outcast and consider them a top tier group. the rest don't matter

 

[SirBiatch]

But not everyone feels Nas' best work is Illmatic. ALOT of people and especially lyricists prefer IWW. Nas own brother prefers IWW. A lot of Nas' fans heard IWW and went back and listened to Illmatic. Also. I'm speaking as someone who copped these albums in real time. If nikkas gonna say what they sayin about Outkast and even IWW Nas. WHY doesnt Biggie get the same flack for Ready To Die which had lighter singles and songs on it than both Nas and Outkast did in that time frame of 94-96. Bottom line nikkas wanna bend the rules for artists they like or whatever lane they wanna box the artist in. It's all bullshyt cause honestly I look at it like this. It's proven u never gonna please everybody. So it's pointless to go broke trying to. Outkast's first album was not hybrid. If that's the case TOO many other artists who don't share the same criticism would have to be criticized. It's a slippery slope.

never said that everyone in the entirety of Earth considers Illmatic to be Nas's best work. Most hip hop fans consider Illmatic to be Nas's best work. And it's not for arbitrary reasons like "it was his first album", "the East Coast conspiracy" or whatever tangential reason some might think. Nas's major contribution to hip hop is Illmatic. Let's not play dumb here.

Biggie doesn't get as much flack because he's dead and people have this "don't disrespect the dead I dikkride" policy. Biggie did that crossover RnB shyt too. Biggie and Nas's music are still more hip hop than Outkast though

 

[JayBaldacci]

Pretty much the gist of it.

The agenda is clear. That hybrid argument is thrown around to discredit any successful artist that someone doesn't approve of. It's to say their sales and recognition are illegitimate.

Sometimes it's true though... like that other Outkast thread.

 

[JustCKing]

Sometimes it's true though... like that other Outkast thread.

Not when it's cherry picked to serve an agenda. I mean, in this thread someone tried to make a case that throwing hard Hip Hop drums onto something from another genre makes it 100% Hip Hop.

 

[JustCKing]

never said that everyone in the entirety of Earth considers Illmatic to be Nas's best work. Most hip hop fans consider Illmatic to be Nas's best work. And it's not for arbitrary reasons like "it was his first album", "the East Coast conspiracy" or whatever tangential reason some might think. Nas's major contribution to hip hop is Illmatic. Let's not play dumb here.

Biggie doesn't get as much flack because he's dead and people have this "don't disrespect the dead I dikkride" policy. Biggie did that crossover RnB shyt too. Biggie and Nas's music are still more hip hop than Outkast though

It still doesn't change the fact that people gravitated to Illmatic AFTER Nas crossed over. So much of the "pretend", "casual" audience still applies to him too.

Biggie still caught flack. He had songs on LAD addressing it. People wanted to write him off as commercial. Biggie was also in the hybrid according to you. They purposely passed over the grimier sounding original "Juicy" in favor of a more glossy, commercial sounding one.

OutKast, Nas, and Biggie are equally Hip Hop. You can't say Kast appealed to an R&B audience without saying the same is true of Nas and Biggie. Their labels, producers, and management all did things to ensure that those records were hits with all Urban markets.

 

[Wacky D]

What list of groups from '93 - '00 do you put over 'kast?

their prime was '94-97.

plenty of groups were generally ranked higher:
bone thugs
wutang
fugees
dogg pound
mobb deep
westside connection

and in the earlier part of that era:
tribe
onyx
de la soul(arguable)
naughty by nature

prolly a few more

in fairness, some of these groups were short-lived, which goes in favor of outkast all-time.
but man, this wasn't even the best era for groups. if youre not amongst the pick of the litter for your era, and your era isn't even the best for said category, then its not even logical for them to even be in goat talks.

just say that's your favorite group and keep it at that. you cant just say "such & such is the goat rapper because I like him, and if you don't agree, I'm gonna team up with my e-friends and ridicule you".
^^^^^
that right there is all this is. that's pretty much your whole basis.

 

[Chris Cool]

their prime was '94-97.

plenty of groups were generally ranked higher:
bone thugs
wutang
fugees
dogg pound
mobb deep
westside connection

and in the earlier part of that era:
tribe
onyx
de la soul(arguable)
naughty by nature

prolly a few more

in fairness, some of these groups were short-lived, which goes in favor of outkast all-time.
but man, this wasn't even the best era for groups. if youre not amongst the pick of the litter for your era, and your era isn't even the best for said category, then its not even logical for them to even be in goat talks.

just say that's your favorite group and keep it at that. you cant just say "such & such is the goat rapper because I like him, and if you don't agree, I'm gonna team up with my e-friends and ridicule you".
^^^^^
that right there is all this is. that's pretty much your whole basis.

couple of them groups you named is regional.

 

[JustCKing]

their prime was '94-97.

plenty of groups were generally ranked higher:
bone thugs
wutang
fugees
dogg pound
mobb deep
westside connection

and in the earlier part of that era:
tribe
onyx
de la soul(arguable)
naughty by nature

Bone Thugs- I agree with this

Wu Tang- I can see them

Fugees- The Score is one of my favorite albums. Legit one album wonders especially since the first one flopped on all levels

Dogg Pound- Again, they were huge for one album like The Fugees.

Mobb Deep- See Bone and Wu, I'd still put Kast over Mobb Deep though

Westside Connection- Great run with the one album they dropped in the '90's, but still one album wonders

Tribe- I agree

Onyx- Now you're just naming groups just to name them

De La Soul- I agree with you on them

Naughty By Nature- questionable

 

[Wacky D]

Bone Thugs- I agree with this

Wu Tang- I can see them

Fugees- The Score is one of my favorite albums. Legit one album wonders especially since the first one flopped on all levels

Dogg Pound- Again, they were huge for one album like The Fugees.

Mobb Deep- See Bone and Wu, I'd still put Kast over Mobb Deep though

Westside Connection- Great run with the one album they dropped in the '90's, but still one album wonders

Tribe- I agree

Onyx- Now you're just naming groups just to name them

De La Soul- I agree with you on them

Naughty By Nature- questionable

onyx in '93-94 was hotter than outkast's whole existence.

I forgot cypress hill.

as for fugees, WSC, dogg pound; how you gonna delete the 1-album group disclaimers, then clown me like I aint type it? man that's just ruthless.