Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

NY's #1 Draft Pick

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I love NY, so if you don't like it, just place me on ignore.
jbhmmm.png



Our views may be more in sync that you thought because I consider Kobe 1 of the greatest to ever play and Lj has no hope of ever being in his league. Moreover, it has zero to do with his rings, as they don't make you the better player, they just mean you were on the better team. It's because of his shooting ability and defense.
Callate la boca!:umad:

I don't put anyone on ignore... You do post a gem once in a blue moon but for the most part u on that bullshyt that no one agrees with:heh:

U move. Goalpost more than anyone on this board.
 

pimpineasy

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Melo will shoot better, sure. He will have games where he plays better and where he plays worse.

But his ONLY available trajectory is downward based on his age. You should stop placating her - her bizarre comparisons to LeBron James, who is in another stratosphere, as well as Dirk and KD who have had seasons Melo could only dream about, including a championship from one of them... defy logic or basic understanding of the game.

She's running face-first into a brick wall, looking at the blood on the ground, and swearing it's just some media propagana from the pro-wall mainstream.

It's clinical.

I root for melo because he plays for my team, I want him to succeed, I want the knicks to win a championship with him. But I also have the capacity to to at the same time make obvious observations that Melo's style of play is NOT necessarily conducive to the getting most consistent, positive results. He can no longer defend consistently at an average level, he plays a premier position, and he stops the ball movement on offense. Even though he CAN pass.

I'm glad he's playing well with Porzingis, I hope they build chemistry... but Melo is not this team's future. He's too old to be anybody's future.

And I think, at the heart of it - THAT is where the disconnect is for some posters. I can root for melo to play well, AND know that he is probably not the answer for this franchise, and definitely not franchise-altering star we'd hoped he was. Both things can be true.

Personally, as an aside, I LOVED the fact that he set that pick for KP at the end of the game last night... I mean, he fukked it up and got called for a terrible foul, but I love that he recognized that Porzingis was hot, and recognized he NEEDED to have the ball on that last possession. That is an important realization... it is the kind of thing that Kobe has NEVER gotten, for example.

It is the kind of thing that gives me hope that he COULD settle into being the second or third option... but it still leaves more than a decade between him and the player who is now the cornerstone. Which is probably too wide a gap to bridge.

It would be great if Melo appeared to be a draw for free agents... but that hasn't proved to be the case... maybe he AND porzingis could draw some young/exciting/promising talent? But then... doesn't that REALLY mean they're signing on to Porzingis?


Basketball is a simple game... but the WAY to win, the strategy is complicated. The BUSINESS of building a basketball team is even MORE complicated, with even MORE ways to succeed and fail. I just think people need to realize that the duality of rooting for a player and a team, and also thinking the team might be better off trading that player are NOT mutually exclusive.

But more than anything, y'all should just block zema. She doesn't add anything to the thread except for post count and frustration. He doesn't understand basketball, and uses the wrong statistics..... this is how I imagine barbershops were in the 90's when white kids started coming in and talking about Vanilla Ice as a top rapper in the game.

:telldtruth:
100%_agree with everything. Well said and reasoned. Also zema is a brehette. Its the internet people never lie about their sex:shaq:
 

Wargames

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Durant 30ppg 50/40/90

32 pts tonight on 14 shots.

It's time for Melo to show the pull he has with FA, this offseason. He needs to be in his ear 24/7

Why would KD come here? We are still a few pieces away from even being a legit playoff team.
:francis:

Batum, Conley, Whiteside (though i like RoLo) should be the targets because they aren't on legit contenders anyway and NY needs high level roleplayers to fill in pieces around its two scorers (whose skill set work together) in Melo and KP.

You got to see it the way a player would see it. If and I mean If the knicks make it to the playoffs they are still a struggle team in need of overall talent. We got more than 1 hole that needs to be filled and were a system over talent team.
 

storyteller

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I root for melo because he plays for my team, I want him to succeed, I want the knicks to win a championship with him. But I also have the capacity to to at the same time make obvious observations that Melo's style of play is NOT necessarily conducive to the getting most consistent, positive results. He can no longer defend consistently at an average level, he plays a premier position, and he stops the ball movement on offense. Even though he CAN pass.

I'm glad he's playing well with Porzingis, I hope they build chemistry... but Melo is not this team's future. He's too old to be anybody's future.

Skipping past the unnecessary stuff, I just see a quality post with some places where I respectfully disagree but think we can have a real intelligent conversation because I see your logic. Speaking from above, I don't agree that he can't defend consistently at an average level. His on the floor off the floor splits for opponents' FG% are above average right now and while Lance Thomas is heaped with praise for his man defense, it's been Melo who takes the top wings whenever Lance isn't out there. We're seeing better wing defense from Melo than possibly he's ever played and while he's fairly average in help defense, his timing on blocked shots has gotten pretty damned impressive though I don't have any statistical backing for that. Just an observation that the swipe block which used to get whistled every time has become a no-whistle fast break catalyst on enough occasions to make it notable.

NBA.com/Stats

As far as stopping ball movement on offense, I agree. But I'd posit that him holding the ball is a much better position for us to be in than Calderon and RoLo being the primary guys at the moment (even with Jose shooting well). Calderon too often does the "I'm gonna shoot...changed my mind...now the defense is set and smothering us" thing (he did it with us down 7 against the Mavs during the comeback and immediately turned the ball over, but Melo's TO's are magnified in those situations because of his role for us). RoLo has struggled with high post ball control all year and I'd MUCH rather we just let Melo slow the defense down a bit because he's shown a knack for hitting the hot hand or looking for kick outs when doubled this season. It's when he's isolated that he becomes a ball stopper and if he's got his legs, that's advantageous. Unfortunately, right now he's short or just off on more occasions than not. But (again with no statistical support this, pure theory here) my belief is that when he gets his legs back; he'll start killing teams in those iso situations which will force the double teams. The biggest beneficiaries of that will be KP who already eats well when Melo draws the extra man and Calderon assuming he takes the open jumper.

And I think, at the heart of it - THAT is where the disconnect is for some posters. I can root for melo to play well, AND know that he is probably not the answer for this franchise, and definitely not franchise-altering star we'd hoped he was. Both things can be true.

Personally, as an aside, I LOVED the fact that he set that pick for KP at the end of the game last night... I mean, he fukked it up and got called for a terrible foul, but I love that he recognized that Porzingis was hot, and recognized he NEEDED to have the ball on that last possession. That is an important realization... it is the kind of thing that Kobe has NEVER gotten, for example.

It is the kind of thing that gives me hope that he COULD settle into being the second or third option... but it still leaves more than a decade between him and the player who is now the cornerstone. Which is probably too wide a gap to bridge.

I don't think any one player is a franchise answer or altering star except maybe Lebron. Anthony Davis is my favorite player in the NBA but he can't carry the Pelicans far on his own. Wade and Bosh combined needed the help of Deng, Dragic and Whiteside to be a formidable team that still looked shaky because it needed a perimeter defender like Winslow to come full circle. It's no indictment of Melo to say he's not franchise-altering. I think my disconnect here is the semantics of first, second and third option. I still think that Melo should be the first guy to create his own shots for now. When KP is at C, he has the advantages to make his own looks, but even when he's making jumpers on pull ups against PF's he's well guarded. Propel him to the number one option now and his efficiency wouldn't look much better than Melo's if at all imo (theoretical though). What Melo needs is a primary ball handler, so that he doesn't HAVE to create his own looks. Both he and KP would thrive with a more consistent playmaker than Calderon. That would make the first option whoever's open when the playmaker forces an uneven defense. Melo and KP would both thrive and see upticks in efficiency. I do trust that he'll give up the rock if there's someone out there creating, based mainly on his stints with Billups and Iverson which saw less forces even on isolations.

It would be great if Melo appeared to be a draw for free agents... but that hasn't proved to be the case... maybe he AND porzingis could draw some young/exciting/promising talent? But then... doesn't that REALLY mean they're signing on to Porzingis?

Put it this way, if Melo's not on this roster in the offseason I don't think there's any chance that Horford, Conley or Durant consider the Knicks for winning reasons. If you replace KP with one of Towns, Okafor or Winslow (maybe Stanley or WCS too) then Melo and a young future stud would be enough to give us a shot. Reading quotes from AA, LMA and Lin also makes me think that Melo was more of a draw than our offseason showed. LMA wanted a look, but didn't feel comfortable in the role Phil offered and LMA mentioned Melo's role in garnering the initial interest. AA blatantly said Melo was part of the allure. Lin I bring up only because people think there's a Melo/Lin beef, but he was waiting for a call from NY this offseason.

Basketball is a simple game... but the WAY to win, the strategy is complicated. The BUSINESS of building a basketball team is even MORE complicated, with even MORE ways to succeed and fail. I just think people need to realize that the duality of rooting for a player and a team, and also thinking the team might be better off trading that player are NOT mutually exclusive.
:telldtruth:

Absolutely man. That complicated portion is what makes forum discussions fun though. I respect everything you said in the quotes even though I see a lot of points I don't fully agree with. We can go back and forth without being abrasive or taking extreme stances. Plus, I think it helps any poster to be open to changing their opinions in light of new information or developments (IE: Lance Thomas does have a role in the rotation, which is more than I've given him in the past...but I still think his role right now is too big for what he offers). If we can get down to talking basketball, this thread will be a lot more fun like it was earlier in the season.
 

Knicksman20

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Fisher is an idiot and rather play seraphin. Monroe was working rolo and seraphin the other day couldn't he see what Quinn could do? I mean atleast he passes out the post.

I like O'Quinn out there; even if it's just for having a physical presence at center. Fish not playing him more is ridiculous. He's playing Serraphin because of his ability in the post.
 

storyteller

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O'Quinn, Early, Derrick William & Calderon are going to be interesting people to watch come Dec 16th when trades start happening.

I think KOQ is here for the haul. Too affordable to dump unless he brings back a real asset which I don't think he can garner without playing time. Same with Early imo. Calderon and D-Will are the interesting ones along with Lance Thomas actually. Lance is that glue piece that teams might look at as a final addition to make their win-now run. He's cheap, defensively strong and his shooting percentages are solid.
 

The War Report

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I think KOQ is here for the haul. Too affordable to dump unless he brings back a real asset which I don't think he can garner without playing time. Same with Early imo. Calderon and D-Will are the interesting ones along with Lance Thomas actually. Lance is that glue piece that teams might look at as a final addition to make their win-now run. He's cheap, defensively strong and his shooting percentages are solid.
Are you Lance Thomas' agent? :huhldup:
 

storyteller

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Are you Lance Thomas' agent? :huhldup:

I think I'm his biggest hater on the realgm boards, I just want him gone so Fisher can stop killing us by playing dude 20+ minutes a night like he has lately. :lolbron:
Cats are coming around over there thanks to Lance's abysmal advanced stats though, I'm quoting from elsewhere because I don't want to steal the credit for these gems below...


SelbyCobra said:
waya said:
It's funny how Lance Thomas is considered a good defender when his DRPM, DBPM, and DRtng are all trash

Real Plus Minus has him ranked 72nd out of 77 SFs in the NBA this year, and 391st out of 419 overall players. :lol:
 

Knicksman20

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Melo will shoot better, sure. He will have games where he plays better and where he plays worse.

But his ONLY available trajectory is downward based on his age. You should stop placating her - her bizarre comparisons to LeBron James, who is in another stratosphere, as well as Dirk and KD who have had seasons Melo could only dream about, including a championship from one of them... defy logic or basic understanding of the game.

She's running face-first into a brick wall, looking at the blood on the ground, and swearing it's just some media propagana from the pro-wall mainstream.

It's clinical.

I root for melo because he plays for my team, I want him to succeed, I want the knicks to win a championship with him. But I also have the capacity to to at the same time make obvious observations that Melo's style of play is NOT necessarily conducive to the getting most consistent, positive results. He can no longer defend consistently at an average level, he plays a premier position, and he stops the ball movement on offense. Even though he CAN pass.

I'm glad he's playing well with Porzingis, I hope they build chemistry... but Melo is not this team's future. He's too old to be anybody's future.

And I think, at the heart of it - THAT is where the disconnect is for some posters. I can root for melo to play well, AND know that he is probably not the answer for this franchise, and definitely not franchise-altering star we'd hoped he was. Both things can be true.

Personally, as an aside, I LOVED the fact that he set that pick for KP at the end of the game last night... I mean, he fukked it up and got called for a terrible foul, but I love that he recognized that Porzingis was hot, and recognized he NEEDED to have the ball on that last possession. That is an important realization... it is the kind of thing that Kobe has NEVER gotten, for example.

It is the kind of thing that gives me hope that he COULD settle into being the second or third option... but it still leaves more than a decade between him and the player who is now the cornerstone. Which is probably too wide a gap to bridge.

It would be great if Melo appeared to be a draw for free agents... but that hasn't proved to be the case... maybe he AND porzingis could draw some young/exciting/promising talent? But then... doesn't that REALLY mean they're signing on to Porzingis?


Basketball is a simple game... but the WAY to win, the strategy is complicated. The BUSINESS of building a basketball team is even MORE complicated, with even MORE ways to succeed and fail. I just think people need to realize that the duality of rooting for a player and a team, and also thinking the team might be better off trading that player are NOT mutually exclusive.

But more than anything, y'all should just block zema. She doesn't add anything to the thread except for post count and frustration. He doesn't understand basketball, and uses the wrong statistics..... this is how I imagine barbershops were in the 90's when white kids started coming in and talking about Vanilla Ice as a top rapper in the game.

:telldtruth:

You couldn't be any more wrong here fam. Have you seen the stats & articles posted in this thread by me & others? Melo is having his best year defensively holding the players he guards to crazy lows. I don't remember if I posted that article or if @storyteller did but it's in this thread. The article had to do with Melo reiterating over the summer that he wanted to be held accountable for his defense this year & he's been very consistent & solid. Melo also has consistently passed the ball well this season & is actively looking for open guys & cutters; particularly KP. There's tons of articles actually praising him this season because he's doing the things he said he would do this summer.

I'm not taking any shots at you but it makes me wonder if you & the others that dapped your comment are really watching the games. I see Melo doing all of these things & my only gripe is he's struggling offensively & that has more to do with him coming back from surgery & me being impatient with his recovery.
 

Playa With Tha Passport

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We just need to understand is that the Melo we currently have is gonna be the same Melo for the rest of the season and seasons to come. I don't wanna hear know more about coming off of injury anymore. He'll show flashes of brilliance once in a while but he will consistently give us 20,7,4 while shooting 7-20. I'm fine with those stats as long as he is willing to take 5 or so shots less a game.

Let's be honest, he's not getting traded. There are only a few teams fit to take on his contract, PHX (he won't waive his NTC), Miami (I'll gladly take whiteside and winslow and a pick for Melo and possibly Lopez), bulls (they not giving us butler anymore, and they have no one else left that I want, Rockets (I can't think of anyone I want)

We have an inconsistent team, we'll still win about 40-45 games and possibly make the 7th or 8th seed, although the East is much better this year. If we win 42 games and KP turns out to be the superstar we think he will be even sooner than expected, I think thats a huge win for us

This what iv been saying
Melo ain't getting traded

And theres no way and hell mia would even give up Whiteside tho
Why would KD come here? We are still a few pieces away from even being a legit playoff team.
:francis:

Batum, Conley, Whiteside (though i like RoLo) should be the targets because they aren't on legit contenders anyway and NY needs high level roleplayers to fill in pieces around its two scorers (whose skill set work together) in Melo and KP.

You got to see it the way a player would see it. If and I mean If the knicks make it to the playoffs they are still a struggle team in need of overall talent. We got more than 1 hole that needs to be filled and were a system over talent team.

Well If it was to actually happen
Kd would erase most of the holes on the team
With his presence ,scoring and Versatility

Hes the most prolific efficient scorer since jordan (outside of when currys hot)

It would really help melo and porz offensively also
At that point you would jus need cheap shooters and defenders around them


I think rondo is a more realistic option
 
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