Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[Victim of Racism]

Nah they will it's happened with certain posters before, but I'm won't say names, we don't need a civil war in here.

I doubt it's genuine.

 

[KnickstapeCity]

The best looking Melo sneaker.

I hate the design of this sneakers usually.

And 160 for these? Nah

After 12 tries Melo finally dropped something worth buying

Them shyts are piff.

160 isn't too bad, breh.

To me, they're just weekend, running around, gym shoes.

With some sweatpants, hoodies, tees... They look comfortable as fukk.

 

[Victim of Racism]

Melo will shoot better, sure. He will have games where he plays better and where he plays worse.

But his ONLY available trajectory is downward based on his age. You should stop placating her - her bizarre comparisons to LeBron James, who is in another stratosphere, as well as Dirk and KD who have had seasons Melo could only dream about, including a championship from one of them... defy logic or basic understanding of the game.

She's running face-first into a brick wall, looking at the blood on the ground, and swearing it's just some media propagana from the pro-wall mainstream.

It's clinical.

I root for melo because he plays for my team, I want him to succeed, I want the knicks to win a championship with him. But I also have the capacity to to at the same time make obvious observations that Melo's style of play is NOT necessarily conducive to the getting most consistent, positive results. He can no longer defend consistently at an average level, he plays a premier position, and he stops the ball movement on offense. Even though he CAN pass.

I'm glad he's playing well with Porzingis, I hope they build chemistry... but Melo is not this team's future. He's too old to be anybody's future.

And I think, at the heart of it - THAT is where the disconnect is for some posters. I can root for melo to play well, AND know that he is probably not the answer for this franchise, and definitely not franchise-altering star we'd hoped he was. Both things can be true.

Personally, as an aside, I LOVED the fact that he set that pick for KP at the end of the game last night... I mean, he fukked it up and got called for a terrible foul, but I love that he recognized that Porzingis was hot, and recognized he NEEDED to have the ball on that last possession. That is an important realization... it is the kind of thing that Kobe has NEVER gotten, for example.

It is the kind of thing that gives me hope that he COULD settle into being the second or third option... but it still leaves more than a decade between him and the player who is now the cornerstone. Which is probably too wide a gap to bridge.

It would be great if Melo appeared to be a draw for free agents... but that hasn't proved to be the case... maybe he AND porzingis could draw some young/exciting/promising talent? But then... doesn't that REALLY mean they're signing on to Porzingis?


Basketball is a simple game... but the WAY to win, the strategy is complicated. The BUSINESS of building a basketball team is even MORE complicated, with even MORE ways to succeed and fail. I just think people need to realize that the duality of rooting for a player and a team, and also thinking the team might be better off trading that player are NOT mutually exclusive.

But more than anything, y'all should just block zema. She doesn't add anything to the thread except for post count and frustration. He doesn't understand basketball, and uses the wrong statistics..... this is how I imagine barbershops were in the 90's when white kids started coming in and talking about Vanilla Ice as a top rapper in the game.

:telldtruth:

For the sake of this board, I'm going to respond to this book of idiocy only once.

Winning a chip doesn't make you the better player, it only means you were on the better team, so it's you who doesn't know the game. smh

KD can't win, even on stacked teams. He gets most of his buckets off of screens, in transition, and from Chuckbrook distracting defenses. That's why he gets punked by defenders half his size like Tony Allen and CP3, because they fight over screens and don't let him get out and run. He can't even shoot above 43% without Chuckbrook on his team. 'Melo doesn't have or need any of that to get buckets. KD does not have a post game. KD can't defend and he can't pass without turning the ball over. 'Melo can do both. Dirk can't defend, pass, rebound, nor block shots but you love him because he's an over-commercialized Euro. 'Melo can do all those things. Dirk won once in 17 years with double-digit free throws in several games, a legendary point guard, great forward, and great center. Tell me more about how 'Melo was supposed to win with an old Chuck Iverson who never knew efficiency until he played with 'Melo and who didn't show up in the playoffs and an old Billups, who also didn't show up in the playoffs. Lj can't shoot, is trash on defense, and lost for 7 straight years, needed the rook Daniel Gibson to score 19 of the Cavs's last 31 points to get to the Finals where he got swept while playing like trash, prompting him to jump ship to a stacked team to save him, so that he could say his assist totals won him a title and you're following along like Lj and the media are your pied piper.

He was the worst player in NBA history in the 2011 Finals and in last season's Finals. He only got 2 titles with the Heat. That's pathetic. Put 'Melo on that Heat team and they win all 4 titles. 'Melo wouldn't get punked by defenders half his size like Lj did with Jason Terry, Kidd, and Barea. He also won't get punked by Kawhi for 2 straight years and stomped by the AARP club. I won't even go in to how the refs gave him the series against KD by sitting KD on the bench in bogus foul trouble for most of the series because Lj embarrassed the league in the series against the Mavs the season before, and how the Spurs threw the Finals by giving him wide open shots in game 6 and sitting Tim and Tony (who were going off late) on the bench in crucial moments of game 6 and 7. He only showed up in 1 out of 5 Finals (2012), even on stacked teams with Wade and Bosh to distract defenses. In last series against the Spurs, he averaged 3 ppg in the 4th quarter, was trash on defense, padded his stats in garbage time, so he could wear "check my stats" t-shirts, and let Kawhi do this to him: Kawhi Leonard wreaking havoc on LeBron. He's such a sorry player.

I don't "think" your views are the result of media propaganda. I know they are. Pay attention, boy: You literally regurgitated one of the media's talking points verbatim when you said 'Melo's style of play won't win. People are winning MVP's putting up 16 and 5 and 17 and 6. You sound like an idiot. Saying 28 and 7 can't win is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read. You also regurgitated one of the media's talking points verbatim when you said 'Melo "isn't in the same stratosphere with Lj". I remember reading that exact statement online. You talk just like the media.

I'm convinced you don't even watch NY with the stupid things you say. 'Melo is holding 44.1% shooters to 34.6%, which is 9.6% below their average. You don't know that fg% is an indicator of defense, even though that stat is under the "defense" category of NBA stats. And you say I use the wrong stats. All of a sudden, you know better stats than me and the NBA. Trust me, it's you who doesn't know the game and which stats to use. The film also confirms the stat because the film shows 'Melo sticking to his man, fighting through screens, etc, for the entire game. By contrast, your precious DPOY Lj is "defending" trash shooters (43% shooters) and the stats say he's holding them to 31.6%, which is 11.6% below their average. The films shows that all he does is roam around for blocks and steals and is usually guarding no one because of it. Sometimes he guards people in the 4th, so that he can say he's "one of the best defenders in this league" and the "best player in the world". Meanwhile, 'Melo caused Wes Matthews to be trash in every statistical category in the box score the other night.

'Melo keeps switching back and forth between being 1st and 2nd on the team in assists. 'Melo passes 1.13 times per minute. Lj, who dominates the ball only passes 0.15 more times per minute than 'Melo. KD passes 0.85 times per minute, which is 0.28 times less than 'Melo. 'Melo assists more of KP's buckets than anyone. You don't know that assist totals and passes made are indicators of being a willing passer, even though those stats are under the "passing" category of NBA stats. And you say I use the wrong stats. All of a sudden, you know better stats than me and the NBA. Trust me, it's you who doesn't know the game and which stats to use. How would you know that 'Melo can pass if he supposedly never does?! You sound so dumb. Your precious KP is a black hole on offense. He passes the least on the team. He looks to shoot it every time he gets it.

To say that 28 and 7 and leading scrubs to the playoffs every year his franchises weren't tanking, especially in a brutal West, isn't franchise-altering is just dumb.

And no, the offensive foul on the screen wasn't a "terrible foul". It was a phantom foul. Refs were cheating from the beginning, as I predicted they would. You don't "root" for 'Melo. You just wrote a book of bank-handed "compliments" while supporting the refs cheating him, drooling over other players, defending "trade 'Melo" rhetoric, and throwing 'Melo under the bus for the sake of it and for other players. You ain't slick, boy.

Don't come for Kobe. Kobe is one of the greatest that ever played and Lj has no hope of ever reaching Kobe's level and not because of the rings, but because of Kobe's shooting ability and defense.

On of your sentences is unintelligible, but if you meant to say KP is the cornerstone, it's another dumb statement, as KP cannot create his own shot and can't shoot above the 30's without 'Melo and Arron to distract defenses, getting him wide open shots, nor can he defend. You'll probably try to use his bpg to say he defends because you don't know what stats to use and you don't know that you still need film. The films shows that all he does is roam around for blocks and is usually guarding no one because of it. By contrast, Rolo gets blocks and guards his man.

'Melo isn't a draw for free agents, but everyone wanted him on his team when he was a free agent. Like Tyson didn't come to NY to play with 'Melo. Like Monroe is anybody and like Phil was trying to pay a guy can't defend. Like Gasol didn't stay in Memphis for the money. Like Gasol isn't old himself. Gasol's defense is trash this season. Like Aldridge is anybody and like he didn't go the best team in the league. Aldridge is shooting the lowest fg% of his career, even healthy. Like Lj didn't go "home" for PR, the money, and because he's a coward who is afraid of the NY media scrutiny and needs everyone to like him. Like a great player like Afflalo wasn't drawn here by 'Melo. Like a defender and box out big like Lopez wasn't drawn here by 'Melo. Like D-Will and O'Quinn aren't promising young talent that was drawn here by 'Melo. Like 'Melo isn't KP's idol, causing him to wear braids because of 'Melo and 'Melo's Nuggets headband. Like 28 and 7 isn't a draw. That's like saying Phil isn't a draw. You sound so stupid.

KP isn't a draw. He's an over-hyped Euro with potential, but who's production relies on 'Melo and Arron. Defenses don't even respect KP. They stay helping off of him and leaving him wide open.

You sound dumb again, talking about trade 'Melo. Yea, let NY do that, so that KP can go back to shooting in the 30's and NY can be trash for another 15 years, like they were the last 15 years. You perpetual tankers are worse than Philly. Even the Clipps aren't like that.

You're telling people to put me on ignore, yet you just wrote a book on some of my most recent posts, and asserting that I am wrong, yet failing to prove it. You can respond, but I will neither read it, nor respond, because I'm trying to cut down on my debating.

 

[GhostoftheMan]

For the sake of this board, I'm going to respond to this book of idiocy only once.

Winning a chip doesn't make you the better player, it only means you were on the better team, so it's you who doesn't know the game. smh

KD can't win, even on stacked teams. KD gets most of his buckets off of screens, in transition, and from Chuckbrook distracting defenses. 'Melo doesn't have or need any of that to get buckets. KD can't defend and he can't pass without turning the ball over. 'Melo can do both. Dirk can't defend, pass, rebound, nor block shots. 'Melo can do all those things. Lj can't shoot, is trash on defense, and lost for 7 straight years before jumping ship to a stacked team to save him, so that he could say his assist totals won him a title and you're following along like Lj and the media is your pied piper. He was the worst player in NBA history in the 2011 Finals and in last season's Finals. He only got 2 titles with the Heat. That's pathetic, and I won't even go in to how the refs gave him the series against KD by sitting KD on the bench in bogus foul trouble for most of the series because Lj embarrassed the league in the series against the Mavs the season before, and how the Spurs threw the Finals by giving him wide open shots in game 6 and sitting key players on the bench in crucial moments of game 6 and 7.

I don't "think" your views are the result of media propaganda. I know they are. Pay attention, boy: You literally regurgitated one of the media's talking points verbatim when you said 'Melo's play won't win. People are winning MVP's putting up 16 and 5 and 17 and 6. You sound like an idiot. Saying 28 and 7 can't win is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read. You also regurgitated one of the media's talking points verbatim when you said 'Melo "isn't in the same stratosphere with Lj". I remember reading that exact statement online. You talk just like the media.

I'm convinced you don't even watch NY with the stupid things you say. 'Melo is holding 44.1% shooters to 34.6%, which is 9.6% below their average. You don't know that fg% is an indicator of defense, even though that stat is under the "defense" category of NBA stats. And you say I use the wrong stats. All of a sudden, you know better stats than me and the NBA. Trust me, it's you who doesn't know the game and which stats to use. The film also confirms the stat because the film shows 'Melo sticking to his man, fighting through screens, etc, for the entire game. By contrast, your precious DPOY Lj is "defending" trash shooters (43% shooters) and the stats say he's holding them to 31.6%, which is 11.6% below their average. The films shows that all he does is roam around for blocks and steals and is usually guarding no one because of it. Sometimes he guards people in the 4th, so that he can say he's "one of the best defenders in this league" and the "best player in the world". And 'Melo caused Wes Matthews to be trash in every statistical category in the box score the other night.

'Melo keeps switching back and forth between being 1st and 2nd on the team in assists. 'Melo passes 1.13 times per minute. Lj, who dominates the ball only passes 0.15 more times per minute than 'Melo. KD passes 0.85 times per minute, which is 0.28 times less than 'Melo. 'Melo assists more of KP's buckets than anyone. You don't know that assist totals and passes made are indicators of being a willing passer, even though those stats are under the "passing" category of NBA stats. And you say I use the wrong stats. All of a sudden, you know better stats than me and the NBA. Trust me, it's you who doesn't know the game and which stats to use. How would you know that 'Melo can pass if he supposedly never does?! You sound so dumb. Your precious KP is a black hole on offense. He passes the least on the team. He looks to shoot it every time he gets it.

To say that 28 and 7 and leading scrubs to the playoffs every year his franchises weren't tanking, especially in a brutal West, isn't franchise-altering is just dumb.

And no, the offensive foul on the screen wasn't a "terrible foul". It was a phantom foul. Refs were cheating from the beginning, as I predicted they would.

Don't come for Kobe. Kobe is one of the greatest that ever played and Lj has no hope of ever reaching Kobe's level and not because of the rings, but because of Kobe's shooting ability and defense.

On of your sentences is unintelligible, but if you meant to say KP is the cornerstone, it's another dumb statement, as KP cannot create his own shot and can't shoot above the 30's without 'Melo and Arron to distract defenses, getting him wide open shots, nor can he defend. You'll probably try to use his bpg to say he defends because you don't know what stats to use and that you still need film. The films shows that all he does is roam around for blocks and is usually guarding no one because of it. By contrast, Rolo gets blocks and guards his man.

'Melo isn't a draw for free agents, but everyone wanted him on his team when he was a free agent. Like Tyson didn't come to NY to play with 'Melo. Like Monroe is anybody. Like Gasol didn't stay in Memphis for the money. Like Aldridge is anybody and like he didn't go the best team in the league. Like Lj didn't go "home" for PR, the money, and because he's a coward who is afraid of the NY media scrutiny and needs everyone to like him. Like a great player like Afflalo wasn't drawn here by 'Melo. Like a defender and box out big like Lopez wasn't drawn here by 'Melo. Like D-Will and O'Quinn aren't promising young talent that was drawn here by 'Melo. Like 28 and 7 isn't a draw. That's like saying Phil isn't a draw. You sound so stupid.

KP isn't a draw. He's an over-hyped Euro with potential, but who's production relies on 'Melo and Arron.

You sound dumb again, talking about trade 'Melo. Yea, let NY do that, so that KP can go back to shooting in the 30's and NY can be trash for another 15 years, like they were the last 15 years. You perpetual tankers are worse than Philly. Even the Clipps aren't like that.

You're telling people to put me on ignore, yet you just wrong a book on some of my most recent posts, asserting that I am wrong, yet failing to prove it. You can respond, but I will neither read it, nor respond, because I'm trying to cut down on my debating.

 

[Malta]

Put it this way, if Melo's not on this roster in the offseason I don't think there's any chance that Horford, Conley or Durant consider the Knicks for winning reasons. If you replace KP with one of Towns, Okafor or Winslow (maybe Stanley or WCS too) then Melo and a young future stud would be enough to give us a shot. Reading quotes from AA, LMA and Lin also makes me think that Melo was more of a draw than our offseason showed. LMA wanted a look, but didn't feel comfortable in the role Phil offered and LMA mentioned Melo's role in garnering the initial interest. AA blatantly said Melo was part of the allure. Lin I bring up only because people think there's a Melo/Lin beef, but he was waiting for a call from NY this offseason.

Back to the FA dream huh? When are yall going to learn that getting star free agents isn't how teams are built. There are exceptions, but by in large contenders are not built via the FA market, the last few years that is all Knicks fans seem to talk about, getting someone in the summer to join Melo and it never works out. The Knicks aren't getting Horford or Durant and realistically why would you want Conley? He's looked like shyt this year and isn't a triangle PG.

It seems like the Heat method of team building really had an affect on some of you. Build organically via smart trades now that you have a potential franchise player, bolster the roster with young undervalued free agents that could be due for a breakout year and buy draft picks, that's how the Knicks are going to get into contention, not holding out hope some player about to fall off their peak will sign.

 

[mbewane]

Back to the FA dream huh? When are yall going to learn that getting star free agents isn't how teams are built. There are exceptions, but by in large contenders are not built via the FA market, the last few years that is all Knicks fans seem to talk about, getting someone in the summer to join Melo and it never works out. The Knicks aren't getting Horford or Durant and realistically why would you want Conley? He's looked like shyt this year and isn't a triangle PG.

It seems like the Heat method of team building really had an affect on some of you. Build organically via smart trades now that you have a potential franchise player, bolster the roster with young undervalued free agents that could be due for a breakout year and buy draft picks, that's how the Knicks are going to get into contention, not holding out hope some player about to fall off their peak will sign.

For real breh, I don't understand this, we've been talking for a decade of FAs and we see where it's gotten us. We need a young core (Melo isn't 37 either, he has enough to ease the transition in the KP era imo) and to actually BUILD a team instead of trying to acquire proven guys. That's not how it works. Let's look at what the Spurs and Warriors have done and try to emulate that : build a system and try to find pieces that can grow in said system. We need to stop going for quick "solutions". We've already tried that and we got ONE good season out of it. We got a potential franchise player in KP, let's see if that works out (not saying it will, but can we first see where it goes?).

Knicks fans are too impatient. It's 20 games in the season and talking about trading Melo and free agency

 

[storyteller]

Back to the FA dream huh? When are yall going to learn that getting star free agents isn't how teams are built. There are exceptions, but by in large contenders are not built via the FA market, the last few years that is all Knicks fans seem to talk about, getting someone in the summer to join Melo and it never works out. The Knicks aren't getting Horford or Durant and realistically why would you want Conley? He's looked like shyt this year and isn't a triangle PG.

It seems like the Heat method of team building really had an affect on some of you. Build organically via smart trades now that you have a potential franchise player, bolster the roster with young undervalued free agents that could be due for a breakout year and buy draft picks, that's how the Knicks are going to get into contention, not holding out hope some player about to fall off their peak will sign.

Stop being melodramatic. The point was a rebuttal about Melo as a draw for FA's versus KP as a draw for FA's; it wasn't a definitive plan of action for the future smfh

Keep Melo and enjoy the chemistry that he's continuing to develop with KP (and Afflalo). Build up your youth, Galloway and Grant are both nice pieces to develop and KOQ can grow as well. Our needs are pretty glaring, a back-up PF who preferably can stretch the floor and a PG that can be locked in for years to come...19 million in cap space is the minimum, if AA or D-Will opts out we've got more...depending on who comes in we can generate even more space by stretching Calderon (an option if Conley were to come through because I think dude is the perfect PG for this crew).

Basically, just stick to the plan Phil has had and let him finish up his vision with another offseason of big cap space and a team that's improved light years compared to what he inherited.

Ain't no holding out hope in the actual future outlook I proposed literally yesterday, just standing pat and looking for upgrades at back-up PF and starting PG...both of which are completely feasible given the cap space we have and neither of which is stuck on holding hope for some player about to fall out of their peak. Get your confused ass outta here with that nonsense.

 

[Knicksman20]

How the Knicks' switch-happy defensive scheme vs. Dallas blew up in their faces

I absolutely HATE switching on defense. Especially during the D'Antoni/Woodson era. We got torched the last several seasons doing this & I have no clue why we did it so much against the Mavs.



"After Dirk Nowitzki cooked Kristaps Porzingis for two early buckets in the Knicks' Monday night loss to the Dallas Mavericks, the defense appeared to be switching screens much more often than usual. Was this some kind of stratagem designed to slow down the Nowitzki-powered Dallas offense? Apparently so.

"We switched a lot, which was our game plan. They took advantage of that."

The question now becomes why that was their game plan in the first place. I get trying to keep Porzingis out of foul trouble, but in terms of actually stopping Dirk and his teammates from scoring, this plan seemed destined to fail. Screen-switching can work very well, provided your team has quick, athletic players capable of defending multiple positions as well as a strong, team-wide understanding of defensive rotations. The Knicks have neither of those things; still, they switched with gusto.

Here are three consecutive early possessions:





I see four problems here:

1. Dirk Nowitzki ends up isolated on Jose Calderon in two of these possessions.
2. The Knicks seem loath to bring help.
3. The other Mavs do a pretty good job of spacing the floor in order to increase the distance needed to help on Nowitzki.
4. Seriously? Jose Calderon?

New York's backups fared even worse. Here, Kevin Seraphin and Jerian Grant switch, leaving the poor rookie point guard trying to defend Nowitzki on the block while Seraphin just kind of stares. Lance Thomas decides against bringing the double because you can't just leave JaVale McGee open. Naturally, Langston Galloway has already rotated to McGee. Let's break down the defensive assignments at this point:

• McGee: 2 guys
• Nowitzki: 1 rookie point guard

I wonder how this will end?



Galloway draws the Dirk assignment later on. At least he makes Dirk work for it:



Perhaps the most annoying facet of this defense, at least when the Knicks play it, is that half the players aren't sure who they're supposed to be guarding on any given possession, which leads to stuff like this:



The Knicks have performed fairly well on defense specifically because they haven't tried to get creative. Their bigs sag deep into the paint and protect the rim, and their athletically-challenged guards usually make an effort to run opponents off the three-point line. They've played about as well as could be expected with the talent at hand.

So please, Derek Fisher, no more exotic defensive game plans. It didn't work against Dallas, and it won't work in the near future.

 

[Victim of Racism]

Callate la boca!

I don't put anyone on ignore... You do post a gem once in a blue moon but for the most part u on that bullshyt that no one agrees with

U move. Goalpost more than anyone on this board.

Shut my mouth? What are we in kindergarten?

Why would I be mad?

"No one agrees with you". Again, what are we in kindergarten? Adults don't need people to agree with them. That said, more than 2k daps doesn't support your narrative and wishful thinking that "no one" agrees with me.

Quote me moving a goal post. I never do that. I don't have to. I mean what I say.

 

[Victim of Racism]

We just need to understand is that the Melo we currently have is gonna be the same Melo for the rest of the season and seasons to come. I don't wanna hear know more about coming off of injury anymore. He'll show flashes of brilliance once in a while but he will consistently give us 20,7,4 while shooting 7-20. I'm fine with those stats as long as he is willing to take 5 or so shots less a game.

You sound dumb predicting that 'Melo should have been shooting well 21 games in after a serious knee surgery and after missing 42 games. Are you a doctor? Please show us your proof that his pop should have been back by now and that his knee going out isn't why he's shooting and landing sideways. It could take him the whole year. For you to say it will always be that way is just a way to dump on him. He's not showing "flashes" What he's done is improve his shooting percentage by 6% in 16 games, which completely contradicts your made-up narrative that he'll never shoot well again. We're supposed to believe you instead of him? He said his pop is not always there. He said the docs told him when to expect the pop to be back completely, but he did not say when that this. Don't bother to respond because I won't be going back and forth.

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

It's about time we start a Neg Train

 

[Victim of Racism]

Yea, it's ok for I.V. to write books, but not ok for me to respond. GOH.

 

[Mr. Jack Napier]

Melo hasn't had a good looking sneaker since the M1. Jordan brand stay giving it's signature athletes some wack designs.

 

[Mr. Jack Napier]

Yea, it's ok for I.V. to write books, but not ok for me to respond. GOH.

I got that dude on ignore

 

[Victim of Racism]

He's playing Serraphin because of his ability in the post.

That, his defense, and the fact that O'Quinn is one of the worst defenders in the league. NY has to rely on their defense because they can't score right now.