Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

JMurder

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Two things:

1) Am I the only one who really enjoys watching that white boy Ron Baker defend?
2) "Melo isn't a max player" stopped being an argument when Mike Conley, James Harden and DeMar Derozan all started making more than him. Chandler Parsons is making a little more than 2 million a year less than Melo. Can we stop counting dude's money?
 
storyteller

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For the sake of discussion that goes a bit deeper into the Noah signing there were positives to signing Noah over a younger C that could replicate much of what he does (aka Biyombo...he's been my pick for two years now) that are worth mentioning, like I said for the sake of a bit more in depth talk.

First, the obvious is the negative aspect. Noah has already proven injury prone, he's virtually a lock to miss around 15 games a season OR MORE, which is scary. On top of that, it's doubtful that even if he does make a full come back that it'll last through the life of the contract. You're hoping that he's fully healthy and back to prime time for the first year or two and then doesn't regress too much in the last two years, that's not a great bet regardless of winning it. So why sign him?

1. Recruiting FA's: Noah said without Rose, he probably wouldn't have looked our way. Lee said Noah was his chief recruiter even though the Knicks called first thing. There are players that garner respect and Rose/Noah...those two have that name value. You combine them with Melo and KP, and that's a much stronger selling point to FA's than just Melo and future KP. With the next cap increase, having that name value could be a tipping point in bringing in a high level player long term.

2. The intangibles: Look, it's impossible to quantify intangibles, hence the phrase. But the team was seriously lacking in vocal leaders and energy guys last season. When Lance went down, that was glaring and Lance really isn't good enough to be that guy in the locker room imo. Noah has a presence that's undeniable; he's already recruited a starting SG on a pay cut and popped up in videos working out with Melo. Every interview he's had has been a mini-sell of NYC to prospective FA's. There's value there that younger guys who haven't established themselves don't yet have. We had other leaders in Melo and Rose, but both guys are "show it, don't say it" types who typically just play the game and lead by example.

3. Mobility: Noah, even in a depleted season, shows strong lateral movement. This allows him to switch on screens and not be at a complete disadvantage against quicker players. He uses his length brilliantly. If he can pass along some lessons to KP, whose shown some ability here too, that'd be a nice gain. The two together would allow for switching more often without getting killed for it and they both hedge really well while recovering to their men also. This is something that can be duplicated, but Noah has a case for being one of the best at it.

4. Passing: It's the one tangible skill that you can't replicate with other FA options at C. Noah is a really good passer and triangle sets can and should take advantage of that skill. RoLo by the end of the season seemed adept at making little passes, but with a wider arsenal, a big man can do even more in those situations away from the basket.

None of this makes the signing the absolute ideal. It's just to say that there is some logic behind taking a shot at Noah. It's a high risk move, but there's some reason to go for it, especially in a clear win now run. But let's add one last factor,

5. KP's OTHER window:
KP's OTHER window: This one gets slept on a bit, because the most simplistic line of thought is that KP's window is a long term one which is obvious. So the best way to hedge your bet on KP is to add affordable youth, save cap space and even if the team is in the lottery again you make a big pick and boost the team.

I wanted this for the offseason, a young SG and a young C to group up with KP. But there's a second window worth considering and that's KP's rookie contract window. At the end of KP's rookie contract, we'll be able to re-sign him even if we're capped out.

Even after one season, it feels like a lock for us to give him as much as it takes to keep him (probably max). But maxing KP means unused cap space is gone right then and there. That means our best window to add a max player is BEFORE KP's rookie contract expires.

If we go slow and steady and the young guys added are developing slowly, convincing a max player to come through is a difficult prospect.

So now back to 1, the name power on the team combined with a playoff run this season could be a big way to bring in a max player next offseason. After next offseason, even without Rose/Noah we would have Melo aging and KP not there yet to sell. I believe Melo expires the same time we'd need to re-up KP, which would mean roster uncertainty for prospective max FA's.

So here's the big one, if the Knicks can add a max guy next offseason (for the obvious name everyone will want, hypothetically Westbrook); they'll be locking in a star player to pair with KP even after he re-signs and our cap situation becomes more difficult. It's possible that Melo, Noah and Lee expire and it seems like we could (with savvy GM work) be in position to then add a new max player to star player and KP at that point.

Now that's a serious long view and unpredictable as hell, but the first chance to add a new max guy is just a season away and I believe there's an opportunity there if we make the second round this year. Will we make the second round? Will that be enough? I honestly have no clue and I'm still not certain the risk is worth it, but I do feel that it will be our best chance to grab a long term star FA to work with KP after the current roster ages out...so it's a swing for the fences essentially.

Only time will tell if it works out that way and the odds are always tight when you're gunning for a home run. Just something worth considering and maybe a chance to produce new discussions because we're getting redundant.
 
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Trip

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storyteller said:
For the sake of discussion that goes a bit deeper into the Noah signing there were positives to signing Noah over a younger C that could replicate much of what he does (aka Biyombo...he's been my pick for two years now) that are worth mentioning, like I said for the sake of a bit more in depth talk.

First, the obvious is the negative aspect. Noah has already proven injury prone, he's virtually a lock to miss around 15 games a season OR MORE, which is scary. On top of that, it's doubtful that even if he does make a full come back that it'll last through the life of the contract. You're hoping that he's fully healthy and back to prime time for the first year or two and then doesn't regress too much in the last two years, that's not a great bet regardless of winning it. So why sign him?

1. Recruiting FA's: Noah said without Rose, he probably wouldn't have looked our way. Lee said Noah was his chief recruiter even though the Knicks called first thing. There are players that garner respect and Rose/Noah...those two have that name value. You combine them with Melo and KP, and that's a much stronger selling point to FA's than just Melo and future KP. With the next cap increase, having that name value could be a tipping point in bringing in a high level player long term.

2. The intangibles: Look, it's impossible to quantify intangibles, hence the phrase. But the team was seriously lacking in vocal leaders and energy guys last season. When Lance went down, that was glaring and Lance really isn't good enough to be that guy in the locker room imo. Noah has a presence that's undeniable; he's already recruited a starting SG on a pay cut and popped up in videos working out with Melo. Every interview he's had has been a mini-sell of NYC to prospective FA's. There's value there that younger guys who haven't established themselves don't yet have. We had other leaders in Melo and Rose, but both guys are "show it, don't say it" types who typically just play the game and lead by example.

3. Mobility: Noah, even in a depleted season, shows strong lateral movement. This allows him to switch on screens and not be at a complete disadvantage against quicker players. He uses his length brilliantly. If he can pass along some lessons to KP, whose shown some ability here too, that'd be a nice gain. The two together would allow for switching more often without getting killed for it and they both hedge really well while recovering to their men also. This is something that can be duplicated, but Noah has a case for being one of the best at it.

4. Passing: It's the one tangible skill that you can't replicate with other FA options at C. Noah is a really good passer and triangle sets can and should take advantage of that skill. RoLo by the end of the season seemed adept at making little passes, but with a wider arsenal, a big man can do even more in those situations away from the basket.

None of this makes the signing the absolute ideal. It's just to say that there is some logic behind taking a shot at Noah. It's a high risk move, but there's some reason to go for it, especially in a clear win now run. But let's add one last factor,

5. KP's OTHER window: This one gets slept on a bit, because the most simplistic line of thought is that KP's window is a long term one which is obvious. So the best way to hedge your bet on KP is to add affordable youth, save cap space and even if the team is in the lottery again you make a big pick and boost the team. I wanted this for the offseason, a young SG and a young C to group up with KP. But there's a second window worth considering and that's KP's rookie contract window. At the end of KP's rookie contract, we'll be able to re-sign him even if we're capped out. Even after one season, it feels like a lock for us to give him as much as it takes to keep him (probably max). But maxing KP means unused cap space is gone right then and there. That means our best window to add a max player is BEFORE KP's rookie contract expires. If we go slow and steady and the young guys added are developing slowly, convincing a max player to come through is a difficult prospect. So now back to 1, the name power on the team combined with a playoff run this season could be a big way to bring in a max player next offseason. After next offseason, even without Rose/Noah we would have Melo aging and KP not there yet to sell. I believe Melo expires the same time we'd need to re-up KP, which would mean roster uncertainty for prospective max FA's. So here's the big one, if the Knicks can add a max guy next offseason (for the obvious name everyone will want, hypothetically Westbrook); they'll be locking in a star player to pair with KP even after he re-signs and our cap situation becomes more difficult. It's possible that Melo, Noah and Lee expire and it seems like we could (with savvy GM work) be in position to then add a new max player to star player and KP at that point. Now that's a serious long view and unpredictable as hell, but the first chance to add a new max guy is just a season away and I believe there's an opportunity there if we make the second round this year. Will we make the second round? Will that be enough? I honestly have no clue and I'm still not certain the risk is worth it, but I do feel that it will be our best chance to grab a long term star FA to work with KP after the current roster ages out...so it's a swing for the fences essentially. Only time will tell if it works out that way and the odds are always tight when you're gunning for a home run. Just something worth considering and maybe a chance to produce new discussions because we're getting redundant.
Click to expand...

You have a Knicks blog?
 
Danie84

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Wait, Jennings rockin my favorite OG Knicka (before Game 6 ETHER FUKKERY) number:mjcry:

...I don't know if to celebrate or cross my finger for that Jinx, tho:sadbron:

My Knickas:francis:
 
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Wargames

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storyteller said:
For the sake of discussion that goes a bit deeper into the Noah signing there were positives to signing Noah over a younger C that could replicate much of what he does (aka Biyombo...he's been my pick for two years now) that are worth mentioning, like I said for the sake of a bit more in depth talk.

First, the obvious is the negative aspect. Noah has already proven injury prone, he's virtually a lock to miss around 15 games a season OR MORE, which is scary. On top of that, it's doubtful that even if he does make a full come back that it'll last through the life of the contract. You're hoping that he's fully healthy and back to prime time for the first year or two and then doesn't regress too much in the last two years, that's not a great bet regardless of winning it. So why sign him?

1. Recruiting FA's: Noah said without Rose, he probably wouldn't have looked our way. Lee said Noah was his chief recruiter even though the Knicks called first thing. There are players that garner respect and Rose/Noah...those two have that name value. You combine them with Melo and KP, and that's a much stronger selling point to FA's than just Melo and future KP. With the next cap increase, having that name value could be a tipping point in bringing in a high level player long term.

2. The intangibles: Look, it's impossible to quantify intangibles, hence the phrase. But the team was seriously lacking in vocal leaders and energy guys last season. When Lance went down, that was glaring and Lance really isn't good enough to be that guy in the locker room imo. Noah has a presence that's undeniable; he's already recruited a starting SG on a pay cut and popped up in videos working out with Melo. Every interview he's had has been a mini-sell of NYC to prospective FA's. There's value there that younger guys who haven't established themselves don't yet have. We had other leaders in Melo and Rose, but both guys are "show it, don't say it" types who typically just play the game and lead by example.

3. Mobility: Noah, even in a depleted season, shows strong lateral movement. This allows him to switch on screens and not be at a complete disadvantage against quicker players. He uses his length brilliantly. If he can pass along some lessons to KP, whose shown some ability here too, that'd be a nice gain. The two together would allow for switching more often without getting killed for it and they both hedge really well while recovering to their men also. This is something that can be duplicated, but Noah has a case for being one of the best at it.

4. Passing: It's the one tangible skill that you can't replicate with other FA options at C. Noah is a really good passer and triangle sets can and should take advantage of that skill. RoLo by the end of the season seemed adept at making little passes, but with a wider arsenal, a big man can do even more in those situations away from the basket.

None of this makes the signing the absolute ideal. It's just to say that there is some logic behind taking a shot at Noah. It's a high risk move, but there's some reason to go for it, especially in a clear win now run. But let's add one last factor,

5. KP's OTHER window: This one gets slept on a bit, because the most simplistic line of thought is that KP's window is a long term one which is obvious. So the best way to hedge your bet on KP is to add affordable youth, save cap space and even if the team is in the lottery again you make a big pick and boost the team. I wanted this for the offseason, a young SG and a young C to group up with KP. But there's a second window worth considering and that's KP's rookie contract window. At the end of KP's rookie contract, we'll be able to re-sign him even if we're capped out. Even after one season, it feels like a lock for us to give him as much as it takes to keep him (probably max). But maxing KP means unused cap space is gone right then and there. That means our best window to add a max player is BEFORE KP's rookie contract expires. If we go slow and steady and the young guys added are developing slowly, convincing a max player to come through is a difficult prospect. So now back to 1, the name power on the team combined with a playoff run this season could be a big way to bring in a max player next offseason. After next offseason, even without Rose/Noah we would have Melo aging and KP not there yet to sell. I believe Melo expires the same time we'd need to re-up KP, which would mean roster uncertainty for prospective max FA's. So here's the big one, if the Knicks can add a max guy next offseason (for the obvious name everyone will want, hypothetically Westbrook); they'll be locking in a star player to pair with KP even after he re-signs and our cap situation becomes more difficult. It's possible that Melo, Noah and Lee expire and it seems like we could (with savvy GM work) be in position to then add a new max player to star player and KP at that point. Now that's a serious long view and unpredictable as hell, but the first chance to add a new max guy is just a season away and I believe there's an opportunity there if we make the second round this year. Will we make the second round? Will that be enough? I honestly have no clue and I'm still not certain the risk is worth it, but I do feel that it will be our best chance to grab a long term star FA to work with KP after the current roster ages out...so it's a swing for the fences essentially. Only time will tell if it works out that way and the odds are always tight when you're gunning for a home run. Just something worth considering and maybe a chance to produce new discussions because we're getting redundant.
Click to expand...

Good stuff and I think KP is on his rookie contract to 2019. If Melo opts out they can chase somebody else prior to that in 2018. One thing Phil has done a damn good job of is kicking that max money down the road with 1+1 deals. I think the plan is to get to a point when the rest of the league is cash strapped so having Max space becomes a game changer again.

Also I got to continue to say this. Injury history or not if Rose puts on a great show I see the Knicks keeping him on a 20 Mil deal in order to try and squeeze in another Max cat like Hayward. If Rose falls apart obviously Westbrook is the choice, but Phil hasn't made an obvious choice yet. Also D-Rose is highly respected, I can't see Phil ditching him if he leads the team on a deep playoff run.
 
M

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storyteller said:
5. KP's OTHER window: This one gets slept on a bit, because the most simplistic line of thought is that KP's window is a long term one which is obvious. So the best way to hedge your bet on KP is to add affordable youth, save cap space and even if the team is in the lottery again you make a big pick and boost the team.

I wanted this for the offseason, a young SG and a young C to group up with KP. But there's a second window worth considering and that's KP's rookie contract window. At the end of KP's rookie contract, we'll be able to re-sign him even if we're capped out.

Even after one season, it feels like a lock for us to give him as much as it takes to keep him (probably max). But maxing KP means unused cap space is gone right then and there. That means our best window to add a max player is BEFORE KP's rookie contract expires.

If we go slow and steady and the young guys added are developing slowly, convincing a max player to come through is a difficult prospect.

So now back to 1, the name power on the team combined with a playoff run this season could be a big way to bring in a max player next offseason. After next offseason, even without Rose/Noah we would have Melo aging and KP not there yet to sell. I believe Melo expires the same time we'd need to re-up KP, which would mean roster uncertainty for prospective max FA's.

So here's the big one, if the Knicks can add a max guy next offseason (for the obvious name everyone will want, hypothetically Westbrook); they'll be locking in a star player to pair with KP even after he re-signs and our cap situation becomes more difficult. It's possible that Melo, Noah and Lee expire and it seems like we could (with savvy GM work) be in position to then add a new max player to star player and KP at that point.

Now that's a serious long view and unpredictable as hell, but the first chance to add a new max guy is just a season away and I believe there's an opportunity there if we make the second round this year. Will we make the second round? Will that be enough? I honestly have no clue and I'm still not certain the risk is worth it, but I do feel that it will be our best chance to grab a long term star FA to work with KP after the current roster ages out...so it's a swing for the fences essentially.

Only time will tell if it works out that way and the odds are always tight when you're gunning for a home run. Just something worth considering and maybe a chance to produce new discussions because we're getting redundant.
Click to expand...

I had to break it up into paragraphs in order to read it. Other than that, this is a great take.
 
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