Hip Hop Outkast or Mobb Deep...who was the better duo?

[Art Barr]

Mobb Deep has better albums but Big Boi > Havoc

after, big boi was horrifically offkey, with no clarity, technical skills, content or any really great rhymes.
plus,not one fukking quotable of note....
after he failed to bite souls of mischief on their debut.
all the way till he ramped up on little period during the release of the dungeon family record.
where he really did not find his way skillwise solidly.
till I like the way you move on the double album.

havoc was originally more convincing and better in skill than dre through all those years.
while handling all the production credits.
which mean havoc is better because he was a better skilled producer, then respected rapper.
incomparison to big boi, who only had to worry about providing verses.

havoc was providing verses, that in some instances have hof grimy ny nods, for content and execution.
plus, he also....handled and sat in and did the same type of studies that the dungeon family did.
way before the dungeon family when he sat in on blackmoon sessions, to qb's hopefuls, to learn.

on top of actually ramping up later on in his career.
plus, being one of rap history's, real natural producer.
[havoc literally just watch and jumped on a machine and the rest is history.
duke was pumpin out crizzack the first time he used a beat machine.]

as real talk....all those infamous beats are his first batch of shyt's.
that gave him a technical execution that fits his brand or genre of music personally.
yes,...maybe q tip helped as a consultant.
yet, havoc is also smart enough to know to take direction from a legend to get better.
plus, be regarded as an alltime great.
big boi is not going down alternatively as an all time great.
also,..in the skills and original styles based era has no quotables of note.

yeah,...big boi has a better double time flow.

yet, I know for years he had no quotables, or cultural impact anywhere near havoc.
plus, havoc wore more hats and actually socially had way more shyt going on.
on a heightened level, that mobb deep are ny's rap scene hof undisclosed troublemakers.
that ruined it for every rapper, in the history of rap perception wise in the history of rap consistently.

so, there is no way I can give big boi a nod over havoc for their entire career.
plus, I know some of the circumstances havoc definitely went through, and had to do more than big boi.

all that time big boi and dre never got along.
where rap pages were vocally interviewing them and describing their social dysfunction from atliens.
went on for way longer than the prodigy/havoc social hiccup.
during all those years big boi and dre were at odds socially....big boi was one of the worst rappers, period.

he was brat levels of bad before ramping up, in technical skill to spit clean flows, double time.
havoc was always better in clarity, rhyme writing, and actual execution on all levels over big boi.
way before big boi ramped up, and actually really rapped at a level.
that was recognizeable as of having skill.




art barr

 

[Art Barr]

anybody picking outkast,....must not see no real winter.


mobb deep = soundtrack of winter


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

Haven't been a fan of Mobb Deep since after Murda Muzik. That was their last quality album to me and everybody knows how bad prodigy has fallen off lyrically. Not to mention they were never diverse.

Kast by the size of a planet.

chu carzy,...
they released the goat rap double album, quality tracklisting wise.
safe crackers disputes you talking...
all of havoc's solo's dispute your talking.
all of p's solo dispute your bullshyt.


you not even adept at their discographies, to speak on it.


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

Uh....homie....Mobb Deep's whole career is pretty much nonstop duck tales. Not saying it should matter in this discussion, but let's be real here.

Fred.

not true,....

prodigy and havoc were the nikkaz, who pretty much grafted the stigma on ny rappers.
as they were the group, people always never said who was causing or doing shyt to people.

prodigy was a paid before infamous on some street shyt, breh...
he was a knuckle head and doing shyt, and he was a qb transplant.

I don't think any rapper went out in public and did as much shyt as mobb deep did .
it is rappers that are not around no more, cause mobb deep shot them nikkaz up, stomped' them out, or had an altercation with.

also,........I wish nikkaz would kill the whole idea about people being short not being thorough.

most nikkaz that are hitters are the smallest little motherfukkers out there, period....

bring yo ass to Inglewood or dro city and see some gangway warfare and see the real.
mobb deep is on that shorty, pop that itchie on you shyt...
they got away with damn near all the shyt, they ever did.
where the shyt they did, pales incomparison to what they did to others.
to the point it was so heinous it was not reported.
except for p's gun charge...which is like the state took it out on him someway on the backend.
only person's story I could see being wilder, that is perceived in the same manner as mobb deep is dmx.
maybe greyson and jayson, mobb style, when it comes to cell operations.
we talembout ny when they had no organized gangs in contention nationwide as a real problem, then.
mobb deep was on some whatever the fukk you wanna do shyt, whenever whatever, and they do not live ducktales, that is a lie.

that is how wild mobb deep's fukk'n story is......

dem little nikkaz not for play,..i don't care how many L's they reportedly got.

mobb deep gave out WAY more L's on a way harsher level than anyone ever gave them.

car accidents were more thorough to ruining mobb, than some nikkaz punchin them a few times in the street.

it is three incidents that look bad on mob's record..
Saigon, keith murray, prodigy did not shoot up that car.
that had cormega in it, and that grimey dude who used cormega tomake it look like he endorsed p getting snuffed and his chain snatched.
plus, he got the shyt back, himself for dolo.

other than that, mobb deep went out every night from 92-who knows when and was fukkin people up on some gun fight....and knife fight shyt, all the time.

in the law of averages, them little I got punched or snuffed is nowhere near what mobb and prodigy/havoc was on.

them nikkaz was into it fa real.....
they got a who's who of giving out l's........

plus, sonned a whole bunch of nikkaz, too.
as some little short dudes, who would set it....




art barr

 

[Art Barr]

Say what you want about hav and p but the dudes they hang with is real goons.

So the shyt they rapped about wasn't duck tales.Now were they putting in work themselvesIdk.

nikka,..yes!!!


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

Mobb Deep was real nikkas, if you in the streets you bound to catch some L's. Prodigy's served bids he walked/walks strapped, and he never backed down, Havoc as a teen used to spend time locked in juvenile facilities like Spofford in the BX, they was in that lifestyle. These nikkas was into drugs and alcohol, their crew and many affiliates were convicts and thugs. I seen a video of Mobb Deep in the early days they was outside with nikkas showing off crack rocks in their hands.

Sure a lot of the things weren't true (they probably never caught bodies, etc.) but they were weren't complete frauds, they rapped about things they participated and shyt that went down in the hood.

For example Temperature's Rising is a true story.

it is prominent to establish to little known rap groups that don't have the member rosters they used to have because of mobb deep, though.
nikkaz, people say are more thorough.....
little do people know, mobb fukked a lot of nikkaz up.

on a wavelength and volume that far exudes those three L's people continue to bring up.
without ever mentioning the shyt that is heavier in volume mobb deep did.
case in point,..
just for starters
.
fukkin,...lost boyz got changed and stained..
then, squashed and forgot about it, next time they saw them.

nas, got checked in a physical altercation and made to back down and apologize like he was buggin.
they slashed up a crew that may have been a setup by nas, and fukked them dudes up trapped in an area.

it is more shyt...

like I said before,...car crashes are the only real L's that mobb deep took.
they got a chain snatched that was got back,....
the keith murray and the Saigon incident...which were all on some planned and plotting shyt.

mobb deep was doing motherfukkers alternatively off impulse,..which is way more dangerous.

it is more,...go read that book.



art barr

 

[Art Barr]

I have no idea what goons they got. The Infamous Mobb got stripped by Tru Life.

I'm just saying, out of the two groups people always "Outkast is some weirdos, they are soft as fukk" because of their music or how they dress....yet I've never once heard of them getting beaten up, robbed, or none of that shyt. Mobb Deep "seems" real, but there is various stories of them getting robbed, punched in the face, and generally disrespected. And they never do shyt about it.

So I'm not understanding how what they rap about ain't duck tales. They make great music, but the "Mobb Deep is real" card has no place in this discussion.

Fred.

infamous mobb, and prodigy was on the outs at that time, if I remember right.
in that little instance, I think prodigy said that they had admin issues and fell out.
so, when tru life came in..
prodigy and infamous mobb were not even socially on the same plane anymore.
for p, to ride for infamous mobb like that.
plus, anybody can have shyt happen to them in the hood, if you shining.

your own man's will give you the flux, and infamous mobb even pulled shyt on the mobb.
yet, infamous mobb needed mob to get where they got and were not respectful or even educated admin wise.


art barr


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

The fukk you talking about? The tier argument makes perfect sense! Assume that some random individual made a list of 9 of the greatest groups of all time - but structured the list in such a way that you couldn't have two groups from the same city/borough or what have you. Ignore the fact that that makes zero sense. Assume that that person then had one additional spot for this tier - the tenth spot if you will - the Queens spot. Also assume that this random person has never heard of Run DMC. Finally, assume that this random person believes that Tribe is ranked higher than Mobb and would get that tenth spot on this one city/borough top ten list "tier". Extrapolate from all of that that Mobb is not a top-tier group overall (please don't go look up the definition of the word tier or except this person to know what it means) since Tribe would get the hypothetical "Queens" spot on the hypothetical top ten list.

That isn't straight forward to you?? What are you, some kind of idiot???

yeah,...
but,...mobb deep made queensbridge its own actual location that is thought of as a singular location.
that is thought of as its own locale like all of the queens borough, though.
just like big L, was able to make you visualize nikkaz into 140th and nfl crew.
where it was like harlem was centralized around and only thought of as 140 street.
i know what the forty and the forty-first side is and i never been there.

that is what mobb deep was.....
mobb deep made it so an actual project became a living breathing tangible place.
that existed like it was an actual borough, to the outside world.
past the imagery of what nas put on illmatic and the world is yours remix.

mobb deep, is like the greatest offshoot of the greatest balling in the hood video of all time the world is your remix.
then, built off the feel of that vid, and the content.
where it was like,....yo, i wanna know what and where the fukk is queensbridge...

nikkaz would be like you mean, queens..
then, nikkaz would counter,..no, i want to know about queensbridge.....

dually, kast has not made anyone the same type of local impact for atlanta in the same vein.
where they fleshed out atlanta into a living breathing tangible envirionment on reel-to-reel.

when you listen to mobb deep,..you are in that stairway.
you are at the entrance to the building with the little awning and the one step.
you know the benches, and you ain't never even been there.
i know where nas lived, tragedy and all that by just counting windows, and i never been there.
i know the types of nikkaz, and their feuds.......

kast has never done the same....kast has never defined one peachtree street from the next peach tree street alternatively in atl.
nor, was their music the embodiment of the exact tone of their landscape.



art barr

 

[Art Barr]

For starters there's a dash between '95 and '99. Secondly, I'm not the one who started the whole '95-'99 thing. I don't know even know why you're following an argument that you weren't even a part of.

I claimed you were making excuses, because you were coming up with reasons why the albums sold and that wasn't the point.

Every Wu Tang album that ever went platinum hit platinum without a mainstream single. I'm talking about the songs themselves and not the promo, marketing, etc. behind it. Of course it was an event, it was a Wu Tang single from their first group album in years. Again, you're entering an argument that didn't include you. I wasn't the one who brought up sales. The person in the argument stated that albums weren't going platinum without a mainstream single.

LOL. You were the one that said he wasn't relevant. Rakim was a factor in '97. He may not have been anything to you, but Rakim was still a factor in Hip Hop in '97. We wouldn't even be having this argument if you hadn't inserted yourself into something that really didn't concern you. You've exhausted all this effort into a discussion where half of the subject is a group you don't care that much for.

That Mobb Deep debut was no more underground than what was out at the time. The parent label that it dropped on was a major label. Also add to the fact that 4th & Broadway had successful Hip Hop acts. You're making it like I listed something they dropped as Poetical Prophets. No, Mobb Deep was on a major label at the time. They dropped an album on a major that went under the radar. Tribe dropped Midnight Marauders in '93, which is possibly their most celebrated album.

when it comes to mobb deep in 1993, on 4th& broadway...
they were thought of perception wise as the youngsta's with an unfocused bootie record.
also,..back in that exact time...
a kid group were not allowed to permeate as adults.
plus, regardless of their content,..were never going to be given credence in convincability.
as all kid teen groups failed from:

kris kross
famlee
youngstaz
illegal

also,....culturally, and content wise mobb deep was not focused at all.

they were thought of as fodder and until mobb deep made infamous.
no teenage rap group ever permeated, that was thought of as underage.

leaders even though they were in highschool were perceived as an adult group.
so they were taken that way because of their clamp background from the bombsquad.

outside of leaders, if you were a teen/kid rap group.
you were never perceived to be on shyt...that is why no one pays attention to the the first mobb record.
if, you know rap you already should have known that, though.
so, i don't see why you are bringing their debut up.
when mobb originally as well as most kid's groups.
were never going to be taken serious.
unless, they were an exception to the rule in pedigree from the beginning like the leaders.

other than that....nobody gave teen/kid groups in rap any respect and rightfully so.

if you know that,..then you know how profound it is mobb deep made infamous and shook ones II.
plus, you would know that it does not lessen but amplifies their legacy.
as mobb was written off, immediately like any teen/kid rap group, off gp.
so, for mobb to do what they did in their next release on that level sales and culturally.
was a triumph that far extends past the obvious platinum sales resulting from outkast in pimp mode.
the same outkast in pimp mode.
who signed an awful deal to one of the scourges of the universe and black people in music.




art barr

 

[Art Barr]

As dope as he was from '95-'99, Pac, Biggie, Nas, and Jay were doing things like this lyrically:

Nas- Nas was penning masterpieces like "I Gave You Power" and "Undying Love". There was also "The Message", "If I Ruled The World", "Nas Is Like", "Project Windows" etc. Not to mention how Nas had memorable features that included Rae's "Verbal Intercourse", Mobb Deep's own "Eye For An Eye", and Kool G. Rap's "Fast Life"

Pac- Pac had "If I Should Die 2nite" and "Me Against The World", basically the whole MATW album. All Eyez On Me is a lighter album lyrically, but Makaveli 7 Day Theory had "Blasphemy", "Me And My Girlfriend", and "Against All Odds".

Jay Z- Reasonable Doubt had "Can't Knock The Hustle", "Can I Live", "D'evils", and "22 Twos", not to mention he sparred with Biggie on several songs ("BK's Finest", "I Love The Dough", and "Young G's Perspective") from '96-'97. He was writing for Foxy, which is a testament to his skills and songwriting. Who wants a mediocre writer to write for another artist? There's also "You Must Love Me" from Vol. 1

Biggie- Biggie had gems like "Sky's The Limit", "Ten Crack Commandments", "Kick In The Door". He masterfully told some crazy stories with "N**** Bleed", "I Got A Story To Tell", "Somebody's Gotta Die", and "You're Nobody"

^^^ Those are some of the greatest Hip Hop records ever written. Prodigy doesn't have a catalog of songs that are lyrically on par with those. Prodigy is being severely overrated.

in 95, nobody was bigger than mobb deep culturally.
they were the it thing group of 95, period.
only person rivaling was the ramped up raekwon.
plus, it was to the point.....
when both of their respective albums were slated to drop.
everyone wrote mobb deep and rae/gf as going to be wack releases.
as, both rae/gf, and mobb deep were thought of as a non-factor.
on top of not being celebrated as members of their collective worth a damn.
i still remember nikkaz who were not into the culture.
who would come up to me in college,...
like, yo,....you that dude into rap, right...
man, you listen to mobb deep?

then it turned into,....do you listen to raekwon and wu-tang.

where it was like, i had to literally think i was in bizzarro world
for just a civilian rap fan to know anything about a darkhorse artist like that.

pac, was getting burn from pr, from his incidents.
he had black and huge whiteboi fanboy fare, unlike anyone for those incidents......
he was not thuglife pac just yet,...where his stanbase started to overprocess him.
he was emotionally gripping pac, at that time.
he was taken more as introspective and unique.
especially for how unorthodox, unique and heartfelt dear mama was.
which was completely different from anything at the time.
plus, a feat because of the subject matter.

it was not until the spitting incident.
coupled with the dr release counting money and all the shyt he was on in that mtv publicized special about him getting out,..
did pac, become the pac that had fans who would become the pac clone war stans.

nas, was nas culturally, in 1994.
yet, by 95, when mobb dropped and nas always noshowed and awol'd shows.

with the crowd that embraced mobb deep and pac, originally.
that mainstream rap fan crowd did not even know who nas was.
nas, became a staple with the mainstream pop gateway rap fan in 1996.
as a matter of fact,..the nas stan base from iww in 1996.
did not even know about illmatic.
just like people did not know about mobb deep's first album because if you were not a bboy you were not in the know.

being a fan of rap music, a general civilian that was not just attached to a movie.
had just began in 1995...i remember it like it was yesterday.
as i had people who i know for a fact, never listened and did not know shyt about rap.

let alone, hiphop and were black from the innercity, and ghettos.

after mobb deep, permeated and brought the pop gateway gangsta rap fan to qb.
originally, nas was a culturized fixture with us bboys.

mobb deep was like the first non-mca rap group.
that was a staple with just regular gangsta rap fans who listened and only knew westcoast.
before that,...no westcoast gangsta rap fan could tell you an eastcoat artist with confidence.
you guys who are young got it good.
plus, you got lied to when mtv revisioned and lied about a lot of shyt, too.
to capitalize on formerly not being a hub for urban music.
so, to save face...they just tried to fake like they gave a damn more than before.
before that,..there was no rap really on mtv besides yo, which did not really have a slot anymore, at all.

it was totally different from the leo burnett marketing of 1996.
that made hiphop the go to culture of the world.

before that,..i guarantee, a lot of nikkaz, would have never owned a rap record.


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

This is as absurd as Andre 3000 being GOAT with the only difference being Prodigy has multiple solo albums. Prodigy was never put upon the pedestal where he was regarded in the same esteem as Nas, Pac, Biggie, or Jay. Not even in the 90's. That's not saying that Prodigy wasn't a great rapper, because he was, but GOAT? Then ya'll got the nerve to clown Kast fans.

prodigy was known as a complete darkhorse goat convo favorite before he fell off.
that predates and occurred on his second record, with no question.
dre had to make three albums with two of heavy experimentation.
to get the same distinction, and kast always was built upon a sonic model that would result in sales, period.
nobody sounded like mobb deep, distinctly.

others made boom bap, and used breaks had the content....
yet, nobody was making mobb records before the mobb, like that.
they revolutionized the hook that was spit, as well.
plus, helped usher in the hook movement on a completely credible and cultural plane.
that shaped the sound of credible non sample based vocal hook based rap.
that also, could draw on a more than gold level.
in a day, when going gold was not in the card for most.
with content that was not already regarded direction wise as platinum selling for eastcoast artist.


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

Where in that post did I mention Nas, Pac, Biggie, and Jay's stardom?

He's discredited because Nas, Pac, Biggie, and Jay as MC's had to hold down their albums by their lonely. Prodigy had Havoc as co-MC and as a producer. None of the songs that Mobb Deep have are even in the same realm as an "I Gave You Power", "Undying Love", "If I Should Die 2nite", "Me Against The World", "D'evils", "Can't Knock The Hustle", "N**** Bleed", "Sky's The Limit", or "Somebody's Gotta Die".

in 95, shook ones part ii,..created the mainstream boom for those artist you mentioned to get a nod in 1996 with street urban based content.

big, nas, jay was not known indepth commercially as a gateway artist for those records you listed when mobb ruled 1995.
as those records dropped in 1996.
1996, and 1995 are two totally different sonic landscape eras.
as 1996, was ushering in a westcoast dominated based g funk theme still.
plus, the eastcoast was shifting into jiggy, commercially overproduced rehashes and remakes.

mobb deep created the street lore of ny from a grimey off the cusp gangsta type like westcoast music featured.
before that,...most credible rap had a very cultural vibe to it when it came to street content.
to the point even mobbstyle was kept from getting relevent because of the taboo schtick of first person violence.
plus the first person idea of being a drug dealer.
after the death of cowboy from a cocaine overdose.

it was not until mobb deep and raekwon..did a regular gateway rap fan associate crime with the eastcoast as an identity.
originally the non-violent mores, and no first person drug dealing talk from the cowboy edict.
kept alot of first-person hustler content based rappers from gaining acclaim in ny.

after mobb deep and raekwon,....that is what made people see that the eastcoast was also, just as violent as cali.

before that,....the savagery and ignorance had to be displayed in the pre-emptive tale.
or in a manner, where it gave the duality of the situation.

g rap was one of the very few who had a first person perspective, but he was so skilled he got a pass, for his realism and detail to technical precision.
that typically a lot of ny rappers suffered backlash.
if they had street crime medium based records of the first person variety.

guns were in eastcoast rap, but outside of the live squad, and g rap.
nobody was going to get some acclaim before mobb deep.
when it came to be as violently impulsive as westcoast gangsta rap culture is perceived.
before the infamous,..mobb
after 95, and the infamous and shook ones II.
that is the release that gave ny that tough, gangsta overall look that they lacked in comparison to westcoast rap after soc.



art barr

 

[Art Barr]

A few more things....

1. Whoever picked Mobb Deep....you don't want to go the critical acclaim route. Outkast blows Mobb Deep out of the water in that regard. There needs to be some kind of unified vote on what matters though, because half of you are saying "Outkast was main stream, obviously critics always loved them, etc etc" then the other half tries to use Mobb Deep's supposed critical acclaim as a talking point. Either critics matter, or they don't. To keep it simple let's say they don't matter.

2. Mobb Deep's fall off was horrific. I get that some of you prefer Mobb Deep, but Mobb Deep, and Prodigy specifically, had one of the worst fall offs in history. Their worst shyt is hands down 100x worse than the wackest song off "Stankonia", and about as bad as "The Love Below", which I hated. I voted Outkast but I can admit which albums I thought was wack....you cats are voting Mobb Deep talking about they never dropped a wack album. Come the fukk on.

3. Some of you are throwing around the word "pop" with no kind of logic or reason. "Hey Ya" (which I hate) is not a pop record. It's corny, catchy, and soft as fukk, but it didn't sound like anything else out at the time. Neither does anything off of "The Love Below" or "Stankonia". I challenge any of you to find comparable music, or a lane, that Outkast was trying to tap into when they made that music. You can't. Hear people tell it "Stankonia" is Outkast's attempt at going pop and their lead single was "B.O.B. which is obviously a terrible choice if you're trying to trend hop or follow what's hot. And keep in mind these are albums I don't even like.

Fred.

1. that is more based on appealing to the change of following trends sonically.
when, the sonic models have already established a platinum following and draw.
all their albums are welled in what was the mainstream pop ideal for rap or some other genre at the time.
except atliens which was the record where they went in a direction that did not have a previous mapped out success with that style of music.
that could be attributed directly to
yet, originally and every other album after that...has been a regrafted rehash of music that already had a platinum cult following.
that was borderline done with or, close to being a nondefunct draw.
or it was a draw that was already, a previous new genre entry pop smash.
every record after that,..was already a mainstream platinum proven draw sonically.

aquemini = pretty much badu's first live BET special before her first album in rap form
stankonia = edm based rays of light accessible world production after it was a proven draw.
speakerboxx = tom joyner's go to rap record, that was 95.5fm sonically, and safe.
love below = built off doo wop with melodic song based lyricism and bar writing....
every record is built off doo wop staples or influences......that is why it was album of the year at the grammy's.
which was brillinat because it fit into the sweet spot of what the grammy committee views as vote getting.


outkast is pretty much the dudes who are like cher/madonna.
who follow the sonic production trends that are big from that genre's own grassroots following and previous submissions.
then, just like cher, and madonna are able to amplifiy world music and edm with more resources as the gateway staple of the genre

3. hey ya = the male version of my boyfriend's back, and mr postman...
which are lifts of the types of music the older demographic holds in high esteem.

i like the way you move = go go style horn influenced music, mixed with southern bounce.

at least in mobb's case,..i know they never followed a pop based proven trend sonically to sell records.
plus, for me kast has nuffin to really go back to, as a listener.
that i could not get in a better submission from the people that they lifted from.
or someone else in that genre, who is a staple.
kast is a sonic gateway. for people who need a nudge to check out genres or points in the past of music history.
they are not brave enough to just go grasp on their own, innately.

i already know or covered the sonic directions they went before they did.
plus
they reall not bodying shyt, and i know they not gon set it on the mic.

with prodigy,..i know i am getting someone who will not back down, on the mic.
if his pedigree, or locale is disrespected...




art barr

 

[Poitier]

This nikka Art Barr is cookin right now

 

[JuvenileHell]

@Art Barr

Powerful posting