Hip Hop Outkast or Mobb Deep...who was the better duo?

[Homeboy Runny-Ray]

I wasn't referencing the argument you started. I'm talking about you jumping into the whole "artists needed a mainstream single to go platinum" argument.

You're saying they weren't as popular when Midnight is one of their biggest albums. They were still a huge deal in 93-94. That album is considered one of the best produced albums in the genre, yet its not celebrated according to you

Outside of "Baby I Got Your Money" and the remix of "All I Need" what other Wu singles were really mainstream? By your logic any song getting airplay on major stations is mainstream which imcludes Mobb's singles.

Regarding the whole Kendrick/Drake/Nas comparison, it definitely stands because comparisons are drawn between them and Nas and Jay. They are held in that regard by this generation. They same way Nas and his generation of MC drew comparisons to Ra, though it was different eras. If you agree with Ra being amongst the best the rest is irrelebant. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

My point is that Juvenile Hell was a non factor that even Mobb fans don't acknowledge. You can't say the same about other elite groups at the time.

In the mid 90's Kast and LB had 2 albums a piece. LB's 95/96 album is slept on outside of "Renee" and "Jeeps, Bimaz, and Benzes". The same doesn' t hold true for Kast who had 2 huge albums and soundtrack songs that wrre big at the time.

youre doing it again. I never said midnight marauders wasn't celebrated. I just said that it wasn't as celebrated as their 1st 2. and they lost a step in popularity. some of their fans had kinda already moved on. chit kept moving back then.

I think you have a different definition of mainstream. particularly for back then.

this generation does not regard Kendrick & drake as the new nas & jay. that's some chit the media tries to force, and the only people that swallow it are rap fans that have no real connection to the culture(half the posters on his board for example). and before Kendrick, they were trying to force j.cole as the new nas. like I said, horrible comparison.

that juvenile hell statement is stupid. like I said, they were looked at like the youngstas and them at the time.

lol @ the lost boyz debut album being slept on. YOURE INSANE.

when it comes to mobb deep in 1993, on 4th& broadway...
they were thought of perception wise as the youngsta's with an unfocused bootie record.
also,..back in that exact time...
a kid group were not allowed to permeate as adults.
plus, regardless of their content,..were never going to be given credence in convincability.
as all kid teen groups failed from:

kris kross
famlee
youngstaz
illegal

also,....culturally, and content wise mobb deep was not focused at all.

they were thought of as fodder and until mobb deep made infamous.
no teenage rap group ever permeated, that was thought of as underage

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

 

[JustCKing]

youre doing it again. I never said midnight marauders wasn't celebrated. I just said that it wasn't as celebrated as their 1st 2. and they lost a step in popularity. some of their fans had kinda already moved on. chit kept moving back then.

I think you have a different definition of mainstream. particularly for back then.

this generation does not regard Kendrick & drake as the new nas & jay. that's some chit the media tries to force, and the only people that swallow it are rap fans that have no real connection to the culture(half the posters on his board for example). and before Kendrick, they were trying to force j.cole as the new nas. like I said, horrible comparison.

that juvenile hell statement is stupid. like I said, they were looked at like the youngstas and them at the time.

lol @ the lost boyz debut album being slept on. YOURE INSANE.





THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

Midnight Marauders is regarded as their best or 2nd best by many.

Mainstream is mainstream, you're ducking the question.

Whether you think the comparison is horrible or not isn't the point. People consider Kendrick and Drake as the greats or best of this generation. This isn't really something I want to argue because it was just an analogy, not a new argument.

Is Juvenile Hell not Mobb Deep's debut album? Are we not discussing Mobb Deep's music? Is Juvenile Hell not a part of their catalog. It doesn't matter how they were perceived, what it sold, or how young they were. It's still their first album whether you consider it to be or not.

The Lost Boyz debut album is slept on. A lot of people can't even name it without looking it up, but the singles were popular. They were particularly slept on in comparison to OutKast.

 

[Poitier]

Midnight Marauders is regarded as their best or 2nd best by many.

@Big Mel

 

[JustCKing]

when it comes to mobb deep in 1993, on 4th& broadway...
they were thought of perception wise as the youngsta's with an unfocused bootie record.
also,..back in that exact time...
a kid group were not allowed to permeate as adults.
plus, regardless of their content,..were never going to be given credence in convincability.
as all kid teen groups failed from:

kris kross
famlee
youngstaz
illegal

also,....culturally, and content wise mobb deep was not focused at all.

they were thought of as fodder and until mobb deep made infamous.
no teenage rap group ever permeated, that was thought of as underage.

leaders even though they were in highschool were perceived as an adult group.
so they were taken that way because of their clamp background from the bombsquad.

outside of leaders, if you were a teen/kid rap group.
you were never perceived to be on shyt...that is why no one pays attention to the the first mobb record.
if, you know rap you already should have known that, though.
so, i don't see why you are bringing their debut up.
when mobb originally as well as most kid's groups.
were never going to be taken serious.
unless, they were an exception to the rule in pedigree from the beginning like the leaders.

other than that....nobody gave teen/kid groups in rap any respect and rightfully so.

if you know that,..then you know how profound it is mobb deep made infamous and shook ones II.
plus, you would know that it does not lessen but amplifies their legacy.
as mobb was written off, immediately like any teen/kid rap group, off gp.
so, for mobb to do what they did in their next release on that level sales and culturally.
was a triumph that far extends past the obvious platinum sales resulting from outkast in pimp mode.
the same outkast in pimp mode.
who signed an awful deal to one of the scourges of the universe and black people in music.




art barr

It doesn't matter how people perceived Mobb Deep. The FACT is that Juvenile Hell is their debut album and it's being overlooked. Kast and Mobb Deep are like a year a part in age. That makes Mobb about the same age as Kast when Juvenile Hell and Southernplayalistic dropped. That nullifies your argument. You're in here making excuses.

prodigy was known as a complete darkhorse goat convo favorite before he fell off.
that predates and occurred on his second record, with no question.
dre had to make three albums with two of heavy experimentation.
to get the same distinction, and kast always was built upon a sonic model that would result in sales, period.
nobody sounded like mobb deep, distinctly.

others made boom bap, and used breaks had the content....
yet, nobody was making mobb records before the mobb, like that.
they revolutionized the hook that was spit, as well.
plus, helped usher in the hook movement on a completely credible and cultural plane.
that shaped the sound of credible non sample based vocal hook based rap.
that also, could draw on a more than gold level.
in a day, when going gold was not in the card for most.
with content that was not already regarded direction wise as platinum selling for eastcoast artist.


art barr

Again more excuses. As a dark horse, he would've had to have been considered a GOAT, even if nobody really expected him to be.

You're really going to act like Wu Tang wasn't a model for them to succeed. They were also labelmates at the time. Mobb Deep had a model and a template to build upon. Everything you said about Mobb's could be attributed to Wu, who was more successful with that style than Mobb.

 

[Big Mel]

That is a common stance but the actuality is that the Tribe albums go in order from best to worst.

I'd accept LET as the best but I don't agree with it. MM was too elctro piano ish and sounded like muzak. still great and has aged well but didn't slam out the box as hard as the first 2.

 

[JustCKing]

in 95, nobody was bigger than mobb deep culturally.
they were the it thing group of 95, period.
only person rivaling was the ramped up raekwon.
plus, it was to the point.....
when both of their respective albums were slated to drop.
everyone wrote mobb deep and rae/gf as going to be wack releases.
as, both rae/gf, and mobb deep were thought of as a non-factor.
on top of not being celebrated as members of their collective worth a damn.
i still remember nikkaz who were not into the culture.
who would come up to me in college,...
like, yo,....you that dude into rap, right...
man, you listen to mobb deep?

then it turned into,....do you listen to raekwon and wu-tang.

where it was like, i had to literally think i was in bizzarro world
for just a civilian rap fan to know anything about a darkhorse artist like that.

pac, was getting burn from pr, from his incidents.
he had black and huge whiteboi fanboy fare, unlike anyone for those incidents......
he was not thuglife pac just yet,...where his stanbase started to overprocess him.
he was emotionally gripping pac, at that time.
he was taken more as introspective and unique.
especially for how unorthodox, unique and heartfelt dear mama was.
which was completely different from anything at the time.
plus, a feat because of the subject matter.

it was not until the spitting incident.
coupled with the dr release counting money and all the shyt he was on in that mtv publicized special about him getting out,..
did pac, become the pac that had fans who would become the pac clone war stans.

nas, was nas culturally, in 1994.
yet, by 95, when mobb dropped and nas always noshowed and awol'd shows.

with the crowd that embraced mobb deep and pac, originally.
that mainstream rap fan crowd did not even know who nas was.
nas, became a staple with the mainstream pop gateway rap fan in 1996.
as a matter of fact,..the nas stan base from iww in 1996.
did not even know about illmatic.
just like people did not know about mobb deep's first album because if you were not a bboy you were not in the know.

being a fan of rap music, a general civilian that was not just attached to a movie.
had just began in 1995...i remember it like it was yesterday.
as i had people who i know for a fact, never listened and did not know shyt about rap.

let alone, hiphop and were black from the innercity, and ghettos.

after mobb deep, permeated and brought the pop gateway gangsta rap fan to qb.
originally, nas was a culturized fixture with us bboys.

mobb deep was like the first non-mca rap group.
that was a staple with just regular gangsta rap fans who listened and only knew westcoast.
before that,...no westcoast gangsta rap fan could tell you an eastcoat artist with confidence.
you guys who are young got it good.
plus, you got lied to when mtv revisioned and lied about a lot of shyt, too.
to capitalize on formerly not being a hub for urban music.
so, to save face...they just tried to fake like they gave a damn more than before.
before that,..there was no rap really on mtv besides yo, which did not really have a slot anymore, at all.

it was totally different from the leo burnett marketing of 1996.
that made hiphop the go to culture of the world.

before that,..i guarantee, a lot of nikkaz, would have never owned a rap record.


art barr

Bone, Pac, Biggie, and a host of other acts were much bigger culturally than Mobb Deep in 1995.

 

[JustCKing]

That is a common stance but the actuality is that the Tribe albums go in order from best to worst.

I'd accept LET as the best but I don't agree with it. MM was too elctro piano ish and sounded like muzak. still great and has aged well but didn't slam out the box as hard as the first 2.

That is all I was trying to point out is that many hold Midnight Marauders in high regard.

 

[Poitier]

Low End Theory is clearly the best Tribe album, in my opinion. Anyone that says MM doesn't have ears or soul.

I don't get your objective. Are you trying to keep the thread alive so Kast can make a comback a year from now? LOL

 

[JustCKing]

Low End Theory is clearly the best Tribe album, in my opinion. Anyone that says MM doesn't have ears or soul.

I don't get your objective. Are you trying to keep the thread alive so Kast can make a comback a year from now? LOL

As for the bolded, you're doing a much better job of that than me. In fact, everyday, there's someone different quoting one of my posts. Only thing I'm doing is replying.

 

[Homeboy Runny-Ray]

That is all I was trying to point out is that many hold Midnight Marauders in high regard.

that's not what I was arguing ak.

As for the bolded, you're doing a much better job of that than me. In fact, everyday, there's someone different quoting one of my posts. Only thing I'm doing is replying.

youre a very interesting individual.

Midnight Marauders is regarded as their best or 2nd best by many.

Mainstream is mainstream, you're ducking the question.

Whether you think the comparison is horrible or not isn't the point. People consider Kendrick and Drake as the greats or best of this generation. This isn't really something I want to argue because it was just an analogy, not a new argument.

Is Juvenile Hell not Mobb Deep's debut album? Are we not discussing Mobb Deep's music? Is Juvenile Hell not a part of their catalog. It doesn't matter how they were perceived, what it sold, or how young they were. It's still their first album whether you consider it to be or not.

The Lost Boyz debut album is slept on. A lot of people can't even name it without looking it up, but the singles were popular. They were particularly slept on in comparison to OutKast.

sorry to break the news to you, but a lot of people cant name outkast album cuts neither. hell, the only time I even see them dudes get talked about is online. TWO 2ND-TIER GROUPS. thanks for proving my point buddy.

I personally agree that MM is their 2nd best album. AGAIN, that's not the point. all I said was that it was the least popular point of their prime years. that's all I was saying, and I don't even remember the purpose of me saying it anymore.

im not ducking anything. you just like to play by your own fantasy rules.

lol @ this Kendrick & drake chit. JUST LOL.

im not even bothering with the juvenile hell thing anymore. dudes done told you what it was. and you still didn't state your purpose or what point that youre trying to make.

 

[ML29]

Outkast. I always felt Dre and Big Boi complemented each other perfectly. Prodigy was always well above Havoc for me not that havoc was wack or anything Prodigy just came vastly superior.

 

[JustCKing]

that's not what I was arguing ak.





youre a very interesting individual.





sorry to break the news to you, but a lot of people cant name outkast album cuts neither. hell, the only time I even see them dudes get talked about is online. TWO 2ND-TIER GROUPS. thanks for proving my point buddy.

I personally agree that MM is their 2nd best album. AGAIN, that's not the point. all I said was that it was the least popular point of their prime years. that's all I was saying, and I don't even remember the purpose of me saying it anymore.

im not ducking anything. you just like to play by your own fantasy rules.

lol @ this Kendrick & drake chit. JUST LOL.

im not even bothering with the juvenile hell thing anymore. dudes done told you what it was. and you still didn't state your purpose or what point that youre trying to make.

I didn't say anything about album cuts. I said album title. OutKast is discussed offline as well. You can't say the same about LB on or offline unlesAlls it's in reference to one of the songs I named OR talk of the group being underrated.

The point I'm making with MM is that it was still released in their prime, which was when Mobb debuted. That lowest point of their prime talk is irrelevant. You're still acknowledging that it's their prime. The point of which was to show that they were in the same era or at the very least, their eras overlapped. That was stated in reference to you saying that it wasn't so because I stated that Mobb wasn't even the best out of Queens to even be considered top-tier. If you can't remember the issue, why are you still arguing.

I'm not the one living in fantasy land here. That's Mobb Deep fans in this thread making ludicrous claims such as:

1) Prodigy was a top-tier lyricist in the '90's (saying only Nas was maybe better). Anything outside of a personal preference or opinion, is ludicrous, because Prodigy definitely wasn't viewed on the same level as Nas nor the other guys I made an argument for. He wasn't even the dark horse, that was Jay Z. This was also the reason why Rakim was brought up because dude was still revered as a Top lyricist at that point, which you agree with.

2) Mobb Deep's debut was The Infamous. That's another reason for me bringing up Juvenile Hell because people were in here matching up Infamous, Hell On Earth, Murda Muzik up against Southernplayalistic, ATLiens, and Aquemini. In Kast's case, those are their first three albums, but those aren't Mobb's first three, because Juvenile Hell is their debut. How are you going to disagree with a fact? Not only that being using the rationale that Mobb Deep were teenagers when they dropped that album to excuse the fact that Juvenile Hell was a non factor.

3) Using the excuse that Mobb didn't go platinum until '99 because they didn't have a mainstream single until "Quiet Storm".

It's like Mobb fans have been apologists throughout the whole thread. First, only their '95-'99 were acknowledged and only compared to Kast's first three as if neither group released music beyond the '90's. Then, you had Mobb supporters coppin' pleas left and right about why they weren't as successful (yet it was argued that they were culturally the biggest group in '95). Then, Juvenile Hell is dismissed because Mobb Deep was supposedly teens when they released it (they were 18-19 years old when it dropped, the same age as Kast when they released Southernplayalistic).

Personally, both groups are great. It then just comes down to preference, which the outcome could've gone either way. My thing is, people making up stuff to justify something that really didn't need to be justified.

 

[Big Mel]

Prodigy was absolutely, 100% a top tier lyricist of the mid to late 90s. Cut out the bullshyt.

 

[JustCKing]

Prodigy was absolutely, 100% a top tier lyricist of the mid to late 90s. Cut out the bullshyt.

That's just something that I'm not in agreeance with. Not saying that he wasn't great, I'm just not seeing where people where putting him up there with the likes of a lot of other lyricists out at the time. Mid-late 90's saw:

Nas- vivid imagery, conceptually great songs, and vivid storytelling

Pac- possessed one of the greatest uses of alliteration ever, vivid imagery, great storytelling

Biggie- crazy wordplay, storytelling, and witty

Common- witty and he penned one of the greatest songs ever in "I Used To Love H.E.R.", just an overall great wordsmith

Scarface- Great storytelling,

Jay Z- one of the wittiest MC's ever, nice storyteller, and great amount of technical skill

Rakim- intricate rhyme schemes, great wordsmith

AZ- crazy rhyme schemes, also a great wordsmith, besides he delivered a standout verse on what's considered one of the most lyrical albums ever

Then you have Raekwon, Ghost, and a couple of other MC's you could put on that list over Prodigy.

In regard to Prodigy, his greatest asset was that he had some of the best opening lines.

 

[Big Mel]

Well, you're odd. P was as rewind worthy and has as many all time great, classic verses as all those guys. Easily too. And The Infamous is as good as or better any of the albums in that equation.

P was a quotable machine in his prime.