Official JOKER Thread (SPOILERS)

dangerranger

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It will never be a fair debate because your point makes no sense.

Dude I literally just explained everything to you and you aren't even arguing on all of what I said so I'm not going back and forth with you. On top of that,
you haven't read what I read about the film so again this is a moot point.
 

dangerranger

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How can a character with no origin lead to Batman? By your own standards it can be anything.

Until Batman shows up he has no ying to his yang which is not what this story is trying to talking about.

It’s about Joker and Gotham.

If you think this version of Gotham can create Batman then it can create Joker.

You are literally explaining my point. The stories that you've read about Joker are in Batman's comics. You only know about Joker and what he does
because you are seeing the stories play out through the eyes of Batman. What are you talking about? Joker is a batman villain. You only know about the Joker and
how he acts and what he does because of the Batman comics. So my point is if this movie doesn't create the Joker that you recognize from the comics
by the time the film ends did you really make a Joker origin film? Hell based on some of you are explaining it you could put Hannibal Lector in Gotham, dress
him up as a clown, and say this is Joker because it's a one off. And some of you would be right on championing the film if Joker was a cannibal
because it's a one off. By using that excuse, you are saying that this film can be anything. So if people say this isn't the Joker I recognize, then you have no
leg to stand on which I suspect will happen when this film drops next week.
 

Json

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I know you've already made up your mind on a movie you haven't seen but I'll indulge.

You are literally explaining my point. The stories that you've read about Joker are in Batman's comics. You only know about Joker and what he does
because you are seeing the stories play out through the eyes of Batman. What are you talking about? Joker is a batman villain. You only know about the Joker and
how he acts and what he does because of the Batman comics..

So what?

I'm I not supposed to watch a Harley Quinn movie that doesn't tell the story from Joker or Batman's perspective? Cause that's how I know her as Batman's villain and Joker's girlfriend.

Oh that's right. Fictional characters are malleable and able to be reinterpreted or reinvented or just.....I don't know....tell what If stories that don't affect their status as originally intended.

I guess in your mind, tell a character story about an intrepid reporter for a Metropolitan newspaper uncovering crime before she was rescued by an alien isn't work telling cause that's not what leads to Superman.


So my point is if this movie doesn't create the Joker that you recognize from the comics
by the time the film ends did you really make a Joker origin film? Hell based on some of you are explaining it you could put Hannibal Lector in Gotham, dress
him up as a clown, and say this is Joker because it's a one off. And some of you would be right on championing the film if Joker was a cannibal
because it's a one off. By using that excuse, you are saying that this film can be anything.

No, cause again for you in the way back. This movie isn't about Joker and Batman. It's about the Joker and Gotham. The Gotham that birthed Batman, Joker, Penguin, Gordon, etc. That' just as much a part of his mythos.

You know, the Gotham that Frank Miller and others wrote about of unrest, corruption, etc. Crime ridden back alleys. Oh, well that's pulling from the comics so I guess that doesn't help your narrow view point of how to tell a Batman story. No need for a Gotham PD movie either cause that doesn't revolve around Batman.

So if people say this isn't the Joker I recognize, then you have no
leg to stand on which I suspect will happen when this film drops next week

And if they don't, I doubt you will leave it alone will you?
 

dangerranger

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I know you've already made up your mind on a movie you haven't seen but I'll indulge.



So what?

I'm I not supposed to watch a Harley Quinn movie that doesn't tell the story from Joker or Batman's perspective? Cause that's how I know her as Batman's villain and Joker's girlfriend.

Oh that's right. Fictional characters are malleable and able to be reinterpreted or reinvented or just.....I don't know....tell what If stories that don't affect their status as originally intended.

I guess in your mind, tell a character story about an intrepid reporter for a Metropolitan newspaper uncovering crime before she was rescued by an alien isn't work telling cause that's not what leads to Superman.




No, cause again for you in the way back. This movie isn't about Joker and Batman. It's about the Joker and Gotham. The Gotham that birthed Batman, Joker, Penguin, Gordon, etc. That' just as much a part of his mythos.

You know, the Gotham that Frank Miller and others wrote about of unrest, corruption, etc. Crime ridden back alleys. Oh, well that's pulling from the comics so I guess that doesn't help your narrow view point of how to tell a Batman story. No need for a Gotham PD movie either cause that doesn't revolve around Batman.



And if they don't, I doubt you will leave it alone will you?

Yo obviously you aren't able to grasp what I'm saying to you. Is the Joker to you just a man in clown costume? I'm being dead a*s, define the Joker
as you see him. I'll respectfully wait. Moreso, I have yet to say anything definitive about this film, I use words specifically like it seems or I'm concerned
yet there's so many of yall defending a movie you haven't even see yet while I'm strictly speculating on what the creators have said which is what this
forum is built for. So yeah define the Joker, so I can respond.
 

Json

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Yo obviously you aren't able to grasp what I'm saying to you. Is the Joker to you just a man in clown costume? I'm being dead a*s, define the Joker
as you see him. I'll respectfully wait. Moreso, I have yet to say anything definitive about this film, I use words specifically like it seems or I'm concerned
yet there's so many of yall defending a movie you haven't even see yet while I'm strictly speculating on what the creators have said which is what this
forum is built for. So yeah define the Joker, so I can respond.

You are the one lording your "i've read stuff you haven't" over other posters but now what to act like you haven't made up your mind? Cause on the internet, stuff is always exactly how it's described by spoilers weeks out.

On top of that,
you haven't read what I read about the film so again this is a moot point.


You can keep waiting. I already told you I'm waiting to see the film before I make my judgement on it's quality as a comic book movie or Batman adaptations.

You need to crawl back into whatever emotionally unstable hole that won't allow you let this go. There's literally another Batman adaption in the wings and on top of having had 3 Jokers in live action since 2000 and countless cartoons but you are wasting mental space on a one-shot.
 

dangerranger

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You are the one lording your "i've read stuff you haven't" over other posters but now what to act like you haven't made up your mind? Cause on the internet, stuff is always exactly how it's described by spoilers weeks out.




You can keep waiting. I already told you I'm waiting to see the film before I make my judgement on it's quality as a comic book movie or Batman adaptations.

You need to crawl back into whatever emotionally unstable hole that won't allow you let this go. There's literally another Batman adaption in the wings and on top of having had 3 Jokers in live action since 2000 and countless cartoons but you are wasting mental space on a one-shot.

I brought up what I read after you arguing with me like you knew what the movie is about. Don't try that revisionist history crap here. I've repeatedly said we will see how the movie turns out when it drops don't try to make it seem like you were saying the same. You've come up with every reasoning and excuse in the book to justify what the creators of the movie have said on the merit of your own feelings. Everything I've brought up has been contingent upon what the creators of the film have said, you talk straight out of emotion defending a movie you haven't even seen. Then you have the nerve to get indignant when people start to question the movie like you're an authority. So don't try to take the high ground now. You haven't seen the movie and neither have I but if I am asking questions to get people's opinions it's for a reason. I have every right to ask those questions regardless how you feel because there is legitimacy to it. I'll be waiting for your assessments come the 4th and it had better not come close to what I've been stating. Because If that's the case, I'll have no problem calling your *ss out on it since you seem to know so much.
 

Json

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I brought up what I read after you arguing with me like you knew what the movie is about. Don't try that revisionist history crap here. I've repeatedly said we will see how the movie turns out when it drops don't try to make it seem like you were saying the same. You've come up with every reasoning and excuse in the book to justify what the creators of the movie have said on the merit of your own feelings. Everything I've brought up has been contingent upon what the creators of the film have said, you talk straight out of emotion defending a movie you haven't even seen. Then you have the nerve to get indignant when people start to question the movie like you're an authority. So don't try to take the high ground now. You haven't seen the movie and neither have I but if I am asking questions to get people's opinions it's for a reason. I have every right to ask those questions regardless how you feel because there is legitimacy to it. I'll be waiting for your assessments come the 4th and it had better not come close to what I've been stating. Because If that's the case, I'll have no problem calling your *ss out on it since you seem to know so much.
That comment wasn't even directed at me. You need to keep your answers correct to who you are talking to.


I haven't defended one thing about the movie itself is or isn't. Only what the directors have said about their intentions. That movie hasn't been advertised as some definitive Batman story but a story about a Joker born in a set of circumstances.

You are the only person still arguing about what hast to be in order to be considered an accurate Joker worthy of Batman.


You can't call anyone's BS out cause you're the only one spewing it about something you've admittedly only read about. You can stop fighting windmills Don and move on.
 

dangerranger

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That comment wasn't even directed at me. You need to keep your answers correct to who you are talking to.


I haven't defended one thing about the movie itself is or isn't. Only what the directors have said about their intentions. That movie hasn't been advertised as some definitive Batman story but a story about a Joker born in a set of circumstances.

You are the only person still arguing about what hast to be in order to be considered an accurate Joker worthy of Batman.


You can't call anyone's BS out cause you're the only one spewing it about something you've admittedly only read about. You can stop fighting windmills Don and move on.

Waiting till the 4th, my guy.
 

Norrin Radd

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Aurora Shooting Victims Voice Fears Over 'Joker' in Letter to Warner Bros.

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Sandy Phillips, mother of Jessica Ghawi, who was among the 12 killed July 20, 2012, when a gunman opened fire on a crowd watching 'The Dark Knight Rises' in an Aurora, Colorado, movie theater.

Todd Phillips' dark take on the Batman villain will not play at the theater where a massacre took place during a 2012 screening of 'The Dark Knight Rises' as family members of those killed ask the studio to donate to gun-victim charities.

Family members of those killed in the July 20, 2012, mass shooting at a screening of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, Colorado, have signed a letter to Warner Bros. sharing concerns about the upcoming Joker film and asking the studio to donate to groups that aid victims of gun violence.

"We are calling on you to be a part of the growing chorus of corporate leaders who understand that they have a social responsibility to keep us all safe," reads the letter, a copy of which was shared with The Hollywood Reporter.

Seven years have passed since James Holmes, clad in full body armor and armed with multiple guns including an assault rifle, terrorized the Aurora Cinemark theater, murdering 12 people and injuring 70 during a screening of Christopher Nolan’s Batman film.

Now, as Warner Bros. gears up for the Oct. 4 release of Todd Phillips' R-rated Joker, which is attracting attention for its gritty, realistic violence as well as for its artistry and the performance of star Joaquin Phoenix, some survivors and relatives of the victims are expressing fears about the film.

"I don’t need to see a picture of [Holmes]; I just need to see a Joker promo and I see a picture of the killer," says Sandy Phillips, whose 24-year-old daughter, Jessica Ghawi, was among the slain.

Sandy Phillips (no relation to the film's director), who with her husband Lonnie created the nonprofit group Survivors Empowered, worked with Igor Volsky of the gun control advocacy group Guns Down America to craft the letter to Warner Bros., which was signed by five family members of victims and sent Tuesday morning.

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(L to R) Tom and Terry Sullivan whose son, Alex, was killed in the Aurora theater shooting beside Sandy and Lonnie Phillips whose daughter, Jessica, was also killed.

In an interview, Sandy Phillips says that Joker, which centers on the isolated and mentally ill antihero who becomes Batman’s eventual arch-nemesis, is "like a slap in the face." She adds that she's concerned about audiences connecting to and even emulating the film’s protagonist in a cultural climate where mass shootings have become commonplace.

"My worry is that one person who may be out there — and who knows if it is just one — who is on the edge, who is wanting to be a mass shooter, may be encouraged by this movie. And that terrifies me," she says.

One theater that apparently will not be showing Joker: Century Aurora and XD, the remodeled venue where the shooting took place.

The theater chain did not respond to a request for comment. But as of Monday night, no showtimes were listed online for Joker at the Aurora multiplex, and a theater employee told THR that advance ticket purchases were not available because the film will not be shown at the venue.

The letter, addressed to new Warner Bros. CEO Ann Sarnoff, does not seek to halt the release of the film nor to rally gun critics to boycott it. Rather, it asks the studio to "end political contributions to candidates who take money from the NRA and vote against gun reform" and "use your political clout and leverage in Congress to actively lobby for gun reform. Keeping everyone safe should be a top corporate priority for Warner Brothers."

The letter states that the shooting was "perpetrated by a socially isolated individual who felt 'wronged' by society" and acted. "As a result, we have committed ourselves to ensuring that no other family ever has to go through the absolute hell we have experienced and the pain we continue to live with. Trust us, it does not go away."

A Warner Bros. spokesperson says the studio has not yet received the letter. “We cannot comment on a letter we have not seen,” the rep adds.

Those who signed the letter are Sandy and Lonnie Phillips; Heather Dearman, whose cousin Ashley Moser was severely wounded and lost her unborn child due to her injuries, and whose 6-year-old daughter Veronica Moser Sullivan was killed; Theresa Hoover, whose 18-year-old son Alexander J. Boik was killed; and Tiina c00n, whose son witnessed the shooting.

Holmes, convicted of 24 counts of first-degree murder and now serving life in prison with no possibility of parole, will be forever linked to the Batman film. In the days following the massacre, Holmes was compared to the Joker character because he sported bright dyed hair and, according to a now-debunked report at the time, called himself "the Joker" as he was being arrested. Daniel Oates, Aurora’s chief of police at the time, maintains "there is no evidence" Holmes ever said that.

Nevertheless, says Oates, "Every time there is a mass shooting or, in the collective media culture, a portrayal of a mass shooting or an evil character who engages in the wanton, random, senseless killing of innocents, we are all traumatized again." Sandy Phillips expands on that: "For me, it's the gratuitous violence that this film glorifies and elevates with the Joker character."

The letter from Aurora victims comes at a sensitive time for Warner Bros., which is marketing the hard R-rated crime drama differently from typical all-audience superhero pictures. While early tracking suggests the $75 million film will open to more than $80 million domestically, Phoenix briefly excused himself from a recent interview to consult with Warners' PR when he was asked if he felt the performance might inspire actual acts of violence.

In a piece published Tuesday, Phoenix told IGN, "Well, I think that, for most of us, you're able to tell the difference between right and wrong. So I don't think it's the responsibility of a filmmaker to teach the audience morality or the difference between right or wrong. I mean, to me, I think that that's obvious.”

And Todd Phillips told IGN, "The movie makes statements about a lack of love, childhood trauma, lack of compassion in the world. I think people can handle that message,” Phillips said. “It's so, to me, bizarre when people say, ‘Oh, well I could handle it. But imagine if you can't.’ It's making judgments for other people and I don't even want to bring up the movies in the past that they've said this about because it's shocking and embarrassing when you go, oh my God, Do the Right Thing, they said that about [that movie, too].”

Phoenix's complex portrayal of Arthur Fleck, who eventually becomes the Joker, is very different from the cartoonish supporting character played by Jared Leto in the 2016 PG-13 Suicide Squad. Todd Phillips’ hyper-realistic Joker roots the villain’s origin story in a dark, grounded tale, and the violence, at times with a gun, is brutal and jarring.

The film won raves at its Venice Film Festival premiere this year, taking the top prize and generating Oscar buzz for Phoenix (THR critic David Rooney called the actor’s portrayal "riveting … both unsettling and weirdly affecting.")

Oates, who retired in June after nearly 39 years in law enforcement, says he believes the timing of Joker is poor, noting three mass shootings in the past three months: at the Gilroy Garlic Festival in Gilroy, California, where three people were killed on July 28; the massacre in El Paso, Texas, where 22 people were killed on Aug. 3; and then the following day the shootings in Dayton, Ohio, where nine people were killed.

Fears of being re-traumatized by Joker are legitimate, explains Dr. Debra Kaysen, a professor in Stanford University’s department of psychiatry and behavioral sciences.

"During a trauma, there are so many cues that are happening around the trauma itself. It could be your heart racing. It could be the sounds or the smell or what’s happening in the space," says Kaysen, who specializes in PTSD. "So, that certainly happens when people go through truly horrifying events, like the Aurora shooting, both for the people who were there, but also the people who lost loved ones."

Joker could "trigger" victims’ PTSD for multiple reasons, she says. "It’s topically related. It’s in the same comic book universe. [The trauma] is also movie-associated. And it is a violence storyline. So, you have a compounding of those networks, or those cues."

Aurora survivor Pierce O'Farrill, who was shot multiple times and still has a bullet lodged in his arm, says he suffered his first panic attack since the massacre about eight months ago. It occurred in a movie theater.

"It had nothing to do with the movie," O'Farrill explains. "I just — I don’t know what it was, but I had a PTSD attack and all those memories came flooding back, and I had to get myself out of the theater. You just never know what can trigger it, and I sympathize with those folks who are concerned about this film."

But not all family members of Aurora victims are against the film. Tom Sullivan, whose 27-year-old son Alex was killed in the massacre, says he does not believe Joker will "jumpstart somebody” to commit acts of violence.

"I don’t think that seeing something is the catalyst to, ‘OK, that is what I am going to start to do,'" says Sullivan, now a Democratic state representative in Colorado. He also says that he still enjoys Batman films, but the Joker character is his least favorite, so he has no interested in the Phoenix movie.

Sullivan introduced presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke at a town hall last week in Aurora, where the Democratic politician again called for rounding up high-powered assault weapons amid his platform of stronger gun control.

Sullivan says he would support Warner Bros. adding "a blurb at the end or beginning of the movie about directing people to organizations for mental health."

O’Farrill says he supports the idea of Warner Bros. donating to relevant causes. Still, the self-described "comic book nerd" says he thinks Joker looks entertaining.

“I do want to see it,” he says. “I think it looks interesting. I don’t know that I’ll see it in the theater, but I’ll definitely see the film.”

He continues, "If people were trying to shut down the film, I would have a strong opinion against that because I am kind of an old-school constitutionalist. I think Warner Bros. has the right to make any kind of film they want."
 
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