look like you got issued a command by a fukking king and have no choice... this is westeros with kings and absolute power, not your boss asking you to come in on saturday
Why would Ned and Catelyn have multiple scenes discussing if he should do it if it was a direct order which he couldn't refuse? Plus it's obvious the raven they receive which infers there was foul play involved in Jon Arryn's death is what truly cements Ned accepting Robert's order.
She had the majority of the room agreeing with her because that was standard protocol. Jon went against standard protocol, which was the right move. Sansa's suggestion in itself wasn't "wrong" and I never said otherwise, it's when she went against Jon's decision that was the issue. First off that was Jon's FIRST major decision as King Of The North, and he had sound reasoning (not needing anymore scheming or bad blood when the focus needs to be on White Walkers, NOT political bickering) and she not only went against him, she straight challenged him. It's not that she needs to shut the fukk up BECAUSE she's a girl. She needs to shut the fukk up because she has NO expertise WHATSOEVER and she's still thinking small.
I'm glad you brought up trust because that is one of the main cruxes of my argument (which you ignored) Sansa has already PROVEN herself untrustworthy, and to a dangerous degree. She literally manipulated Jon into battling Ramsay under the guise of NOT recapturing Winterfell but SAVING Rickon (the LAST living heir to the Stark name as far as both of them know). Sansa wanted Winterfell all along and wanted revenge on Ramsay, her brother be damned. Ok, let's say we forgive that based upon her past trauma, I can understand how her rape and torture at the hands of that lunatic would make her have bloodlust for Ramsay. But to allow Jon and his army to ride out to battle undermanned when she had the Vale army in her back pocket is simply unforgivable in its self serving entitlement. She put Jon's LIFE in danger and got several thousand men slaughtered because SHE wanted to be the hero.
And the "Littlefinger isn't to be trusted" argument is complete And utter bullshyt. She went and spoke with LittleFinger and he told her straight up "ill do whatever it is YOU ask of ME". We (the viewers) also saw LittleFinger manipulating the little boy King to help Sansa. So even if Sansa didn't 100% know that LittleFinger would help. Her going to ask and TELLING Jon changes the strategy entirely. He and Davos would have had more men and more of a battle plan to prep. Instead Sansa's "council" was "Don't do what he he wants you to do"
what the fukk kind of council is that breh
So, not only is Sansa not trustworthy. She has no expertise in battle, strategy, or politics. So again, who the hell is she to be arguing with Jon in public again?
bytch needs to sit down and be humble
What show have you nikkas been watching?
If there's one thing Littlefinger has proven, it's that he's not to be trusted. Every action he makes has an outcome that is purely in the best interest of Littlefinger. The War of the Five Kings? Littlefinger. But forget all that. Sansa witnessed Littlfefinger push Lysa Arryn to her death. If there was any doubt that he's not to be trusted, I think that doubt was erased by then. In a perfect world you do not want to be aided by and consequentially indebted to Littlefinger. Plus she knows exactly why Littlefinger wants to help her. He's tryna wife her up. She doesn't want that. Hence why he was a last resort option which she's already regretting. He expects something back now. If Robert Arryn really ruled the Vale and wasn't just a puppet under Baelish's control then Sansa wouldn't have hesitated to ask for his help from jump. Watch the first few minutes of The Door if you're still confused as to why Baelish was a last resort.
She straight up tells Jon she wants to get Winterfell back. Rewatch their scene when she reunites with him at Castle Black. She tells him she wants his help but she'll do it herself if she has to. There's no deception involved. They don't even know Ramsey has Rickon when she asks Jon to help her retake Winterfell. Before the battle she tells Jon straight up they'll never be able to get Rickon back and they should be prepared for that reality.
But to the point all of y'all keep parroting, Jon would be an idiot to plan on having more soldiers to help without the guarantee of having more soldiers to help. Sansa sent the letter to Baelish after Jon refuses to take more time to try to get more men. There is no return letter in the time up to the battle. So the Vale showing up isn't a guarantee no matter how much y'all want to keep saying it is. So no, Sasa didn't make Jon go into a battle undermanned. Jon chose to do so. He ignored Sansa's pleas of taking more time and decided to rock with what he had. Regardless, the reason Jon's forces found themselves surrounded and on the brink of defeat is because Jon did what Ramsey wanted him to do. Ramsey lured him into no man's land and wagered correctly that his troops would follow Jon into no man's land to save him. That leaves Ramsey the opportunity to dictate how the battle will go based on the actions of his enemy. Ramsey didn't send all of his forces at the beginning. He didn't need to. He sent a few cavalrymen. In the possibility Jon's forces don't rush in to help him, Jon's killed. Does that necessarily end the battle? No, but your commander dying does deal a huge blow. In the case Jon's forces do rush in, Ramsey has the upper hand of being able to be proactive as opposed to reactive. Go watch the episode again. Tormund and Davos both saw what Ramsey was trying to make him do. Tormund even says "Don't" right before the charge. In their meeting prior Davos explicitly says they have to make Ramsey come to them. So even if Jon had the guarantee the Vale would show up, do you think he wouldn't have rushed into no man's land regardless, thus putting his forces in the same predicament? So yeah, as vague as it is, "Don't do what he wants you to do" was great advice. Sansa sat there and heard what Jon, Davos and Tormund planned. She waited until she and Jon were alone to tell him Ramsay wouldn't fall for their pincer move. I don't know if you watched the episode, but she was right
nikkas talmbout Sansa has no experience. She herself says she knows nothing about battles. But when it comes to politics and strategy she's had more experience and witnessed more of this game than all of the Stark/Targayren b*stard Starks combined. She's thrown into the fukkery of King's Landing in the first season. There's a case to be made that Cersei is the most conniving, cut throat person on this show. So like Sansa says, she doesn't admire Cersei but she's damn sure learned a lot from her. You add in being around the actual most conniving, cut throat person on the show, Littlefinger, Sansa is more than capable of giving counsel to a dude who is still very naive and following the same doomed honor based ideology that his "father" did. While I'm getting tired of "mean mug and make speeches but don't actually do shyt" Lyanna Mormont, her sonning that dude about women holding their own in the fight to come is legit as fukk.
And to further shyt on the inconsistencies in the arguments against what I've been saying: on one hand, y'all wanna be mad at Sansa because she spoke against Jon in front of the Northern Lords, because it makes him look weak. But you're for him not punishing the Umbers and Karstarks. Not punishing traitors sounds pretty weak to me
The Northern Lords agreed with what Sansa had to say because it's protocol but you guys got all emotional because Sansa expressed her opinion in front of the Northern lords...so you wanted her to follow protocol?
Sansa ain't shyt, and not because she's a girl. Sansa, like Cersei, ain't shyt because she's dumb, SELFISH, fickle, and untrustworthy.
I'm supposed to take her seriously now because she looks brooding and speaks up?
And y'all nikkas wonder why I call you out for your weird hatred of women. How is Cersei dumb exactly? Are we talking about the same Cersei that went from being on trial and having her life on the line to killing all of her enemies and becoming queen in one episode?
Sounds pretty smart to me. But let's leave out the dumb part and really get to what proves y'all are some misogynistic dudes. "Selfish(all caps, lol), fickle, and untrustworthy" If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were talking about this dude:
You know, the same guy whose every action is in his own self interest. The same dude who is the way he is because he got turned down by a chick and grew up better off than most but was jealous because he wasn't as well off as the highest lords. A dude who murdered his wife so he could take control of her kingdom. But oddly enough, I never see any of you nikkas up in arms over this dude. He's just as evil and conniving as Cersei yet receives none of the ire from the apparently morally concerned coli septons. What gives, brehs?
What am I missing?
And you're supposed to take her seriously because she's proving herself to be more than capable. She's not the same character she was in the first couple seasons. Funny thing is, y'all were giving her credit for that last season right until she had the nerve to "forget her place" and disagree with Jon
Oh, and y'all nikkas seem to be taking Lyanna Mormont seriously even though all she literally does is look brooding and speaks up. But hey, she's not uppity, doe
We aren't watching a book
We are watching Game of Thrones
Nothing in the books is canon in the TV show unless it is in the TV show
Nice deflection attempt though. Targset getting incredibly desperate
I'm starkset
But Dany the key to the south
#StarkSet going at each others necks on the show and on the coli
i wouldn't mind her if she stayed in her lane. she's not built for what she's trying to do. she's more suited for that Margaery lane.
