godkiller

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Bruh, you have to put yourself in Jon's shoes. You have seen the White Walkers, you know what they are capable of and what they want, how can you even think about petty squabbles?

It's like fighting aliens in space, getting back to Earth, and someone is telling you to focus on Syria and North Korea as the main threats. bytch, Aliens are coming, I don't have time to worry about Assad and Kim Jung Un...I have a civilization to save.

Even Tywin, one of the most cynical men in the land, sacrificed his pride for the sake of the realm for years while serving as hand of the king. Jon is just doing the same but on a grander scale. All the petty squabbles are irrelevant when the Night King is marching down to the wall with an army of the dead and fukking whight giants.

Jon can be vindictive and shrewd as he chooses in punishing disloyal banner men, but that's not going to do any good when the White Walkers come across that wall.

Jon united traitors and allies alike against the White Walkers in the Night's watch. How did it end for him? He was murdered. Jon is doing the same thing now and he is too headstrong or stupid to see it. Only Sansa does. Indeed, if Sansa wasn't there, Jon would already have died AGAIN in the Battle of the b*stards. Tywin Lannister never had traitors near him. If he didn't outright kill them, he banished them or had them far away from him, so they couldn't easily reach him. Jon does the opposite. He is not a smart leader. He is a good general like Robert Baratheon but not a smart leader. Such men are controlled by men smarter than them.
 

godkiller

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I disagree. First of all, her undermining him in front of everyone was wrong, whether you think she's right or not, that wasn't the place for her to have a back and forth with him and that makes Jon look bad. 2nd, if all that's left of the Umbers and Kastarks is really those kids as the heads of the family there's no need to have children pay for the crimes of their parents.


Jon's stupidity undermines him far more than Sansa did in that exchange. Sansa was right to kill off the Karstarks and Cerwyns when the opportunity was there. Jon already spared similar such men in the Night Watch's and died for it. He does the same thing again and worries more about how Sansa makes him look than his own weakness makes him look. As respects children, they grow and become murderers just like their fathers. Tywin Lannister made sure to kill everyone and everything of traitors so that none again would rise, of them or others'.
 

Mr. Brown

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Jon's stupidity undermines him far more than Sansa did in that exchange. Sansa was right to kill off the Karstarks and Cerwyns when the opportunity was there. Jon already spared similar such men in the Night Watch's and died for it. He does the same thing again and worries more about how Sansa makes him look than his own weakness makes him look. As respects children, they grow and become murderers just like their fathers. Tywin Lannister made sure to kill everyone and everything of traitors so that none again would rise, of them or others'.
Worked out great for him. Ended up getting killed by his own son while he was on the toilet.

Also the Night's Watch thing is a different situation. In the Night's Watch, the men he was sparing were actually still alive. In this case, those men are already dead. Sure he could've had those children become wards like Theon was for the Starks. But there's already the precedent there for a ward growing up to resent the family he was a ward for and turning on them like Theon eventually did.
 

trillanova

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This is not true at all. A good portion of us said that Sansa had a good point.

She just shouldn't have argued with Jon in public to keep a united front.

You're brining up a specific scene and my point is about the reoccurring failures of the a Stark house. I wasn't even talking about that scene
 

godkiller

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Worked out great for him. Ended up getting killed by his own son while he was on the toilet.

That was because he hated midgets, which is something else entirely. Tywin was wrapping everything up before Tyrion went nuts.

Also the Night's Watch thing is a different situation. In the Night's Watch, the men he was sparing were actually still alive. In this case, those men are already dead. Sure he could've had those children become wards like Theon was for the Starks. But there's already the precedent there for a ward growing up to resent the family he was a ward for and turning on them like Theon eventually did.

The Night's Watch is the same issue. Jon surrounds himself with traitors and Jon dies. Jon did the same in the last episode. Wards is a good idea actually. I think Robert and Ned, or one of them, were raised wards and never betrayed the Vale. But Jon didn't even do that. He's an honorable fool and should listen to Sansa, who already saved his ass once in the Battle of the b*stards.
 

SuikodenII

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All of these families and kingdoms are going to fall and be wiped out...

If anything, only 1 will survive the white walkers.

Cool episode, The Hound + Ed Sheeran = I see fire :pachaha:
 
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Quick observation about the writing

That scene where Jon/Sansa het the news of Cersei being queen keeps sticking out to me.

The way they glossed over that shyt was lazy

So you get a note saying that Cersei is now Queen, which means ALL THOSE people died, and it doesn't even get a reaction?:dahell:

Nah they just go straight into "Well how do we fight her"

This is where I see the need for the books for a leg to stand on for help. Having the main plot points and the ending is great but let's not rush to get there



Again Jon is focused on the White Walkers. He literally gives ZERO fukks about Game Of Thrones and whose ruling at any given point. Besides that Cersei is 100% an enemy, that is known. Why would they take time to conversate about her dead children? They know what's up. Jon, as The King Of The North, is already an enemy of the crown by proclaiming himself so. And he has zero intention of bending the knee, so here really IS nothing much to talk about besides "how do we fight her?"
 

trillanova

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Worked out great for him. Ended up getting killed by his own son while he was on the toilet.

Also the Night's Watch thing is a different situation. In the Night's Watch, the men he was sparing were actually still alive. In this case, those men are already dead. Sure he could've had those children become wards like Theon was for the Starks. But there's already the precedent there for a ward growing up to resent the family he was a ward for and turning on them like Theon eventually did.

Tywin being killed over his son's inability to handle his harshness has nothing to do with his leadership. If he didn't keep shytting on Tyrion and fukking his whore he probably will still be here.
 

Lifer11

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Jon united traitors and allies alike against the White Walkers in the Night's watch. How did it end for him? He was murdered. Jon is doing the same thing now and he is too headstrong or stupid to see it. Only Sansa does. Indeed, if Sansa wasn't there, Jon would already have died AGAIN in the Battle of the b*stards. Tywin Lannister never had traitors near him. If he didn't outright kill them, he banished them or had them far away from him, so they couldn't easily reach him. Jon does the opposite. He is not a smart leader. He is a good general like Robert Baratheon but not a smart leader. Such men are controlled by men smarter than them.


So you honestly believe they brought Jon back from the dead, made him a descendant of the two oldest most legendary families who also happen to be the only families tied to magic, and have made him the fiercest warrior in the show (all the other names that could be mentioned built their reputation during Robert's Rebellion, in this story Jon is the most legendary warrior by far), just to kill him off for exactly the same reason he was killed for before, or to be ruled by someone else?

That would be one of the worst character arcs in literary/television history. He's not the leader Westeros/the North deserves (they deserve a cold hearted scumbag--AND YET if some theories are true, Jon may just end up having to be a cold hearted scumbag to save the realm anyway), but he's the leader they NEED, in that he's willing to look like a fool and put himself in harm's way to do the right thing, and only a person like that can unite enough people to even have a chance against the White Walkers. Prior to the White Walkers those qualities would get a person killed, but now that they face a mutual threat of total destruction a person like that is necessary. He's not too stupid to see his mistakes, he knows full well what he's risking, he just knows that if he doesn't risk everything he'll end up dead/a wight anyway, along with the rest of the world.

We know he's going to face some push back from the Northerners and Sansa, but I assume the White Walkers will arrive before it can come to a head and make everyone realize why Jon was willing to shun 1000s of years of tradition and risk his own life to mount some sort of defense against them.

Remember this is a fictional story, there's a reason a b*stard/underdog was put at the Wall. To the other characters he's a nonfactor, but to the reader/viewer we know he's been involved in the only battles that actually matter, and in the end he's most likely gona be a pretty typical hero in that he rose up from nothing against all odds, had fate (in this case magic) on his side, and helped the people overcome a seemingly invincible opponent. George RR Martin might mix it up by killing Jon off at the end, or killing everyone off, but the overall themes are still pretty stereotypical.
 
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dem bath salts

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Again Jon is focused on the White Walkers. He literally gives ZERO fukks about Game Of Thrones and whose ruling at any given point. Besides that Cersei is 100% an enemy, that is known. Why would they take time to conversate about her dead children? They know what's up. Jon, as The King Of The North, is already an enemy of the crown by proclaiming himself so. And he has zero intention of bending the knee, so here really IS nothing much to talk about besides "how do we fight her?"
Yeah, he has more pressing concern with the walkers. Honestly, Jon is the least of Cersei's problems, he aint coming to kings landing while Dany, Olenna, and Ellaria are coming for her neck.
 

godkiller

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So you honestly believe they brought Jon back from the dead, made him a descendant of the two oldest most legendary families who also happen to be the only families tied to magic, and have made him the fiercest warrior in the show (all the other names mentioned built their reputation during Robert's Rebellion, in this story Jon is the most legendary warrior by far), just to kill him off for exactly the same reason he was killed for before, or to be ruled by someone else? That would be one of the worst character arcs in literary/television history. He's not the leader Westeros/the North deserves (they deserve a cold hearted scumbag), but he's the leader they NEED, in that he's willing to look like a fool and put himself in harm's way to do the right thing, and only a person like that can unite enough people to even have a chance against the White Walkers. Prior to the White Walkers those qualities would get a person killed, but now that they face a mutual threat of total destruction a person like that is necessary. He's not too stupid to see his mistakes, he knows full well what he's risking, he just knows that if he doesn't risk everything he'll end up dead/a wight anyway, along with the rest of the world.

Remember this is a fictional story, there's a reason a b*stard/underdog was put at the Wall. To the other characters he's a nonfactor, but to the reader/viewer we know he's been involved in the only battles that actually matter, and in the end he's most likely gona be a pretty typical hero in that he rose up from nothing against all odds, had fate (in this case magic) on his side, and helped the people overcome a seemingly invincible opponent. George RR Martin might mix it up by killing Jon off at the end, or killing everyone off, but the overall themes are still pretty stereotypical.

If Jon lives it's because he's a main character not because he's a smart leader. He's a fantastic swordsmen and a good military man. Jon will probably end up listening to Sansa or else Sansa will be his Hand without his knowing it, like Cersei did Robert.
 
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