Official Game of Thrones Season 4 Thread *The North Remembers*(NO SPOILERS!!)
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Adam3000
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Can you speak on this further?
I made quite a few posts about it in this thread, you might have seen it already and just glossed over it or you may think I'm referring to something else this time. Here it is again:
That entire sequence at the end was brand new to book readers, this is the first time that the stuff being shown on the show has gone past the books into new material. We have gotten virtually zero info on the White Walkers, so this was a bombshell to show what was happening to Crasters kids (it was hinted at in the books but not proven) and also to visit The Land of Always Winter.
But then 2 more megaton bombs got dropped, first off was showing that the White Walkers have a highly organized society with some sort of government system set up, and that they are creating new White Walkers presumably for an army using live human babies. Inadvertantly, HBO dropped some extra info on this that I don't think we were supposed to know but it is too late now.
In the episode synopsis on their official site, they mentioned the White Walker at the end with the crown looking horns on his head and they name dropped him as The Nights King. They have since redacted the naming and now they are just listing him as "a walker." The Nights King is a mythological figure on the show that we all thought died thousands of years ago. Now, it is unsure if this Nights King is THE Nights King from mythology, or if it is just a new Nights King (like a title that passes down generation to generation).
Here is a non-spoiler backstory on the Nights King, spoiler tagged to save space:
According to legend, the Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. He was a fearless warrior named the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Later, he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars". He chased her and loved her though "her skin was cold as ice", and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.[1] Her description matches that of the Others.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and after the unholy union, he declared himself king and her his queen, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the North. It was not until his own brother, the King in the North, and Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that the Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed. After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been sacrificing to the Others (possibly in a similar way to Craster), all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden.[1] It is likely this led the lords of the North to forbid the Night's Watch to construct walls at their keeps, ensuring the keeps would always be accessible from the south.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and after the unholy union, he declared himself king and her his queen, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the North. It was not until his own brother, the King in the North, and Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that the Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed. After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been sacrificing to the Others (possibly in a similar way to Craster), all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden.[1] It is likely this led the lords of the North to forbid the Night's Watch to construct walls at their keeps, ensuring the keeps would always be accessible from the south.
And here is one of the major reasons why this was such a shock to book readers that HBO called him the Nights King. This could be considered slightly spoilery, but there are not plot spoilers here, only theories. Some of these theories are rooted in spoilery evidence, but I won't get into the evidence so I think it is safe to read and won't bother any show-only watchers to read it:
Book readers thought of the Nights King as dead, and many suspected that the current show story was going to conclude with one of the characters becoming a new Nights King. There were a lot of theories that perhaps Stannis or Jon Snow or someone might end up turning 'evil' in the end and taking on that role, paralleling the ancient tale of the original Nights King. These theories now all get thrown in the bushes and open up the doors for a whole new set of theories.
There were other old theories about the Nights King as well....there was a character cut from the show named Coldhands (don't search him, spoilers will be connected to his name). Many people thought that Coldhands was the original Nights King yet to be revealed. But since Coldhands was cut from the show, he doesn't appear to be as important as we suspected.
I mentioned new sets of theories earlier, an example of a new theory that is gaining traction ever since that HBO reveal is that the ancient tales of war between the First Men, Children of the Forest, and The White Walkers are all false. History that has been lost over time. The new theory is that The White Walkers were actually the ones that built the Wall. Humans and White Walkers may have forged a pact thousands of years ago, and the Nights King may have married a White Walker to seal the pact. Starks might even be descended from White Walkers. But then something happened and the Nights King was killed and war erupted again, and over time history lessons have taught a lie that the Humans built the Wall and that we are the good guys. Basically, this HBO name drop is making the book forums go crazy with speculation about the overall mythology of the books yet to be uncovered. These are all just reader theories though with minimal evidence to support them, but since we have such a long wait between books these are the types of things that get thrown around.
There were other old theories about the Nights King as well....there was a character cut from the show named Coldhands (don't search him, spoilers will be connected to his name). Many people thought that Coldhands was the original Nights King yet to be revealed. But since Coldhands was cut from the show, he doesn't appear to be as important as we suspected.
I mentioned new sets of theories earlier, an example of a new theory that is gaining traction ever since that HBO reveal is that the ancient tales of war between the First Men, Children of the Forest, and The White Walkers are all false. History that has been lost over time. The new theory is that The White Walkers were actually the ones that built the Wall. Humans and White Walkers may have forged a pact thousands of years ago, and the Nights King may have married a White Walker to seal the pact. Starks might even be descended from White Walkers. But then something happened and the Nights King was killed and war erupted again, and over time history lessons have taught a lie that the Humans built the Wall and that we are the good guys. Basically, this HBO name drop is making the book forums go crazy with speculation about the overall mythology of the books yet to be uncovered. These are all just reader theories though with minimal evidence to support them, but since we have such a long wait between books these are the types of things that get thrown around.
Adam3000
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There isn't much more to elaborate on the Stannis as Azor Ahai thing. Thats the jist of it all and it is the main purpose of her riding with Stannis....she sees it in her fires that he is Azor Ahai and he wields Lightbringer to prove it. The problem with it that we have as book readers is that Melisandre has proven on multiple occasions that she sometimes gets her fire-visions incorrect. They aren't always literal, sometimes she relies on interpretation and her skill at that can be called into question. Furthermore, there is no reason to trust that Stannis' sword actually is Lightbringer. It really doesn't fit the original story of Lightbringer which required a great sacrifice to be forged (Azor Ahai's closest loved one). It seems pretty obvious that Melisandre is trying to convince Stannis to join her cause and she is using a magic trick to make the sword glow and convince him. She has been known to do this......more on that in the additional spoiler tag below.
As far as the vision about Bran with The Others....we don't have any more info on that and it is unclear what exactly this foreshadows. Some people think that Bran may eventually end up leading The Others in a war against the humans. This is based on no evidence other than that vision, although I mentioned earlier that this whole business with The Nights Kings opens up new possibilites including possible Stark/Others blood ties. So who knows. I can't speak any more on Bran though without spoiling stuff, his book storyline will be 100% caught up by the end of this season though so after this season of the show we can all theorize on Bran together.
The Arya stuff is brand new to the show, that was not in books. It has made book readers curious though, and pretty much guarantees that they will eventually meet up again in some fashion. I can't speak anymore on Arya though without spoilers. The direction her character is taking should hopefully be pretty clear by the end of this season, they are slowing down her story right now to stretch it out.
To end this long ass response, I'm gonna spoiler tag the stuff I mentioned above about Melisandre. The reason I'm spoiler tagging it is because it has not been revealed on the show. But it hasn't been revealed in the books either. The only place that states this to be true is the official "World of Ice and Fire" Iphone app. This is not a future plot spoiler, it is about a past event and I'm not sure if they will ever touch on it, I think it is merely supposed to be "implied" by the books and the show, therefore it probably isn't even a spoiler
As far as the vision about Bran with The Others....we don't have any more info on that and it is unclear what exactly this foreshadows. Some people think that Bran may eventually end up leading The Others in a war against the humans. This is based on no evidence other than that vision, although I mentioned earlier that this whole business with The Nights Kings opens up new possibilites including possible Stark/Others blood ties. So who knows. I can't speak any more on Bran though without spoiling stuff, his book storyline will be 100% caught up by the end of this season though so after this season of the show we can all theorize on Bran together.
The Arya stuff is brand new to the show, that was not in books. It has made book readers curious though, and pretty much guarantees that they will eventually meet up again in some fashion. I can't speak anymore on Arya though without spoilers. The direction her character is taking should hopefully be pretty clear by the end of this season, they are slowing down her story right now to stretch it out.
To end this long ass response, I'm gonna spoiler tag the stuff I mentioned above about Melisandre. The reason I'm spoiler tagging it is because it has not been revealed on the show. But it hasn't been revealed in the books either. The only place that states this to be true is the official "World of Ice and Fire" Iphone app. This is not a future plot spoiler, it is about a past event and I'm not sure if they will ever touch on it, I think it is merely supposed to be "implied" by the books and the show, therefore it probably isn't even a spoiler
The whole thing with the leeches being burned to kill Joffrey and Robb was a complete lie by Melisandre. She had visions of their deaths in her fire, and she tricked Stannis by using the leeches to make him think that Kings Blood had the power to kill them. She was trying to convince him to burn Gendry by fooling him, similar to the way that she is fooling him with the fake Lightbringer. Let me be clear....she is NOT against Stannis, she truly believes he is Azor Ahai, she is just using these tricks to gain his confidence so he will let her run wild burning kings
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T-K-G
Veteran
breh you coulda just pm'd him all of this, im all for helpin nikkas piece together what they've already seen but you be goin above and beyond 
Cᵣₐₛₕ&ₜₕₑCₒᵤₚ
____ exposing themselves
F*** khaleesi and her tryhard liberator a** 
Ol' demonic open heart eating, slavemaster in disguise, level 100 SPEECH having a** b****
And f*** her pet lizards......looking like Emmy from dragon tales
Ol' demonic open heart eating, slavemaster in disguise, level 100 SPEECH having a** b****
And f*** her pet lizards......looking like Emmy from dragon tales
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He was dapped and repped appropriately
very appreciative of his thoughts, and him posting it allows others to join the conversation, which I plan on continuing with him now.
Adam3000
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There are other people who would want to read it though. Best to just tag it so those who want to read it can, and those who don't want to can avoid it.
Piff Perkins
Veteran
Do you draw any parallels to the Nights King/his woman and Stannis/Melisandre perhaps?
I feel that Melisandre having strong visions of both Bran & Arya speak to the Starks possibly having a bloodline connection to the others.
I havent read any spoilers, except for one, that I determined to be crucial to understanding the story. Why do you think the show left a lot of the visions out of Daenerys at the house of undying?
I feel that Melisandre having strong visions of both Bran & Arya speak to the Starks possibly having a bloodline connection to the others.
I havent read any spoilers, except for one, that I determined to be crucial to understanding the story. Why do you think the show left a lot of the visions out of Daenerys at the house of undying?
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Piff Perkins
Veteran
There are parallels hence why people believe Stannis could become the next Night's King.
I haven't spoken about the episode much, but I don't buy that it was actually the Night's King. Whoever wrote that is in HBO's marketing department and has no impact on the show, and the fact that HBO edited it seems to confirm this.
I think the Night's King @Adam3000 mentioned is actually another character who apparently won't be in the show: Coldhands.
I haven't spoken about the episode much, but I don't buy that it was actually the Night's King. Whoever wrote that is in HBO's marketing department and has no impact on the show, and the fact that HBO edited it seems to confirm this.
I think the Night's King @Adam3000 mentioned is actually another character who apparently won't be in the show: Coldhands.
Adam3000
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For anyone worried about clicking on the spoiler, the question is about by thoughts on Stannis and Melisandre paralleling Azor Ahai and also another question about Daenerys' trip to the House of the Undying in Qarth, which was severly chopped for the show
I don't think that Stannis is Azor Ahai, I don't see any parallels. The only person who Stannis could stick a sword through that would parallel the tale would be Shireen, and I just don't think that makes any sense for Shireens story. Why give her greyscale and make her sit in a dungeon if she is supposed to be the 'ultimate sacrifice?' We have been beat over the head since the first time we saw Stannis that he is Azor Ahai Reborn. Ask Ned fans and Robb fans whether George would be that obvious about a characters ultimate direction.
Stannis' fate is a mystery to me, I can see him going any number of ways.
To be clear about one thing, Melisandre doesn't have visions about Arya. That is invented for the show. But since the showrunners know the general direction of the story, I think it was put there for a purpose
As far as Daenerys at the House of the Undying, the way it was presented in the books would make no sense for the show. First off, seeing some things visually would be a spoiler, it is supposed to be vague to readers. Second off, lots of it is prophecy that is being cut from the show so it makes no sense to include it at that point. Storylines may have to be slightly altered to explain Dany's decisions, but its not a big deal. In the book, her reason may be "because of a House of the Undying prophecy," and in the show her reason may be "because Barristan told me to." It doesn't really make a difference for us viewers.
Stannis' fate is a mystery to me, I can see him going any number of ways.
To be clear about one thing, Melisandre doesn't have visions about Arya. That is invented for the show. But since the showrunners know the general direction of the story, I think it was put there for a purpose
As far as Daenerys at the House of the Undying, the way it was presented in the books would make no sense for the show. First off, seeing some things visually would be a spoiler, it is supposed to be vague to readers. Second off, lots of it is prophecy that is being cut from the show so it makes no sense to include it at that point. Storylines may have to be slightly altered to explain Dany's decisions, but its not a big deal. In the book, her reason may be "because of a House of the Undying prophecy," and in the show her reason may be "because Barristan told me to." It doesn't really make a difference for us viewers.
Adam3000
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Nights King talk
I think you are reaching here. The Nights King was the 13th lord commander of the Nights Watch. There were 12 other people on this mystery dudes "council" and they were all wearing black clothing that looks like Nights Watch clothing.
And why would a random HBO marketing dude namedrop the Nights King? That name has never been mentioned on the show. It makes no sense logically.
HBO editing it doesn't confirm anything other than it was a mistake to put the name up. It is much more likely that the name Nights King was on the script or the casting sheet but wasn't supposed to be revealed, and someone accidentally slipped it through. Wouldn't D&D have come out and said "that was a mistake, we didn't mean to name drop the Nights King out of the blue" if that was the case that he isn't actually the Nights King?
And why would a random HBO marketing dude namedrop the Nights King? That name has never been mentioned on the show. It makes no sense logically.
HBO editing it doesn't confirm anything other than it was a mistake to put the name up. It is much more likely that the name Nights King was on the script or the casting sheet but wasn't supposed to be revealed, and someone accidentally slipped it through. Wouldn't D&D have come out and said "that was a mistake, we didn't mean to name drop the Nights King out of the blue" if that was the case that he isn't actually the Nights King?
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Torrential
LWO
Word on the streets is that new Obarth review is on its way 
Piff Perkins
Veteran
I'll post future replies in the ASOIAF thread so as not to clog this place up
The problem with this theory is that there is no evidence the Night's King is the "king of the White Walkers," which is what the thing in the episode seemed to be. The Others existed for thousands of years before a Stark became the Night's King - and remember, he ruled on the Wall far from the Others. Also by all accounts he was defeated and presumably killed. In fact, Bran's vision in ADWD about a man getting his throat cut in some type of ritual is viewed by many as a vision of the death of the Night's King.
I think this character is the show's "Night's King " ie "king of the White Walkers" with no connection to the one who once ruled on the Wall; in fact I'm going to assume that character doesn't exist in the show. There has been plenty of time for the show to mention the lore of the Night's King, yet it wasn't done. Obviously, perhaps they plan on talking about it this season but until that happens, I'm doubtful.
I think this character is the show's "Night's King " ie "king of the White Walkers" with no connection to the one who once ruled on the Wall; in fact I'm going to assume that character doesn't exist in the show. There has been plenty of time for the show to mention the lore of the Night's King, yet it wasn't done. Obviously, perhaps they plan on talking about it this season but until that happens, I'm doubtful.
