OFFICIAL Game of Holmes Season 8 Thread - A Dream of Flat Tops 4/14/19

[CHICAGO]

DUDES DID A WHOLE LOT OF CAPING
FOR THE TRAITOROUS TARLY FAMILY.

BUT THE INNOCENT MISSENDAI IS MURDERED
AND I DONT HEAR A PEEP.



​

 

[Osmosis]

This is a long post I found on another forum that defends the writers in their characterization of Dany. I always felt like Dany was going to end up as the Mad Queen when she get to Westeros so I don’t really get why people are acting like that is completely illogical. The steps they’ve taken to get her there has been rushed but the storyline is at least plausible.

Spoiler

Disclaimer: This is going based off show canon and not book canon.

Here is all the previous evidence of her poor decision making and themes in Dany's arc:

Barristan gives Dany some insight in Meereen that is quite applicable to Dany. "The Mad King gave his enemies the justice he deserved, and each time it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end"

1. In Meereen, Dany crucifies the Nobles indiscriminately without a trial, because she saw children crucified on her way to Meereen. While that is definitely sad, her actions are very impulsive and to a certain extent, cruel. Hizdahr Zo Loraq has to beg Daenerys to let his father's corpse off the cross despite the fact that he had no part in crucifying slaves. Not only is the fact that she lets the corpses rot on the cross impulsive, its insanely cruel. Cruelty should not breed cruelty or it will become an endless cycle. Crucifixion is an extremely painful way to die and she chose it willingly in order to make a point or show of force. This is a recurring theme that Dany will commit acts of extreme cruelty because she believes it is the right thing to do.
2. When Hizdahr goes to Yunkai, the masters of Yunkai agree to her terms except that they believe the fighting pits should remain open. Not too unreasonable..but Daenerys has always wanted complete authority, she rejects terms on the basis that she's a Queen, not a politician. Sound a bit too powerhungry to want unquestionable agreement from a city you conquered?
3. When Barristan is killed by the sons of the harpy, she immediately once again indiscriminately arrests the Nobles of Meereen. You'd think she learned her lesson about rushing to judgment but no. On top of that, she forces them into a dungeon to confront her dragons. Herself admitting that she has no idea who's innocent or guilty, she arbitrarily executes a master, for all we know could be innocent, by burning him alive. Wow, im sensing a pattern here. I'd like to point out it would be no trouble to her to have an executioner kill the master for her, and give him a more painless death but no, she chooses Dragon because Cruelty sends a message. She is not to be messed with.
4. When does she have a change of heart? When Hizdahr gets on his knees and begs for his life. That's what she wanted and she achieved her goal. Total and complete surrender. Not to mention Hizdahr never even says he intends to marry her, she in a way forces him to marry her. You might argue, but he could've said no... Totally, he can say no to the queen who just burned a random person alive in a show of force and who needs Hizdahr for political purposes to bring peace to Meereen.

*Brief tangent: Look at it from Hizdahr's POV. Dany arrives in Meereen, conquers the city and then executes his father for a crime he didn't commit. She then arrests anyone associated with his class, and arbitrarily executes a random person, and nearly him. Then when she finally realizes she can't rule without the support of at least some of his class, she forces him to marry her. Sound familiar? Joffrey becomes king, executes Ned, abuses all those associated with the Starks, and then when Robb wages war publicly and only keeps Sansa as his wife so that she can write to Robb to pledge fealty to Joffrey. Hizdahr is also stabbed during the attack in the pit, proving that he wasn't involved with the Harpy.

5) Tyrion's arrival in Meereen highlights her righteousness and belief in destiny. Im not going to stop the wheel, im going to break the wheel. Now some might say oh shes doing that for the people. Something something crushing those at the bottom. But when she asks Tyrion for help what does she ask for? How to help the people? No. To get what she wants. The Iron Throne. Her first thought is not about helping the people, its about getting the throne.

*Some might argue that she helps the North defeat the Night King, but in my opinion this can be explained pretty easily. 1) She loves Jon (who at this point is no threat to her rule and is actually an ally) and 2) She's seen the threat firsthand and it's pretty clear that if Jon and the North lose Winterfell, the Dead will defeat the entire realm.

6) When Meereen is attacked by the slavers, her first impulse is to burn their cities to the dirt. Only Tyrions counsel and comparisons to the Mad King stop her from embarking on her quest.

7) When Jon Snow arrives in Dragonstone, she demands his immediate surrender. She reminds him of the pledge his ancestor made to Aegon the Conqueror. She offers him nothing in return but when he refuses on the rightful ground that the pledge between Lord and King was broken when Dany's father burned his family members alive, she declares her father evil BUT she doesn't acknowledge that the pledge was broken and instead declares Jon in "Open Rebellion". Once again, demanding complete submission for absolutely nothing. She feels entitled to Jons loyalty simply on the basis of her ancestry without acknowledging that the Monarch is supposed to protect their vassals in exchange for fealty and that fealty is not a right. Im reminded of Book Varys's speech about Tommen thinking Kingship is a right and not a duty.

8) When the Tyrells are killed and she destroys the Lannister army in the Field of Fire, she captures the Tarlys. She has choices, prison, yada yada. Tyrion gives her advice to imprison them till they bend the knee, but that wouldnt be complete submission and it would never satisfy her. So she does what she thinks is right, and burns them alive. Once again, using cruelty as a show of force to make a point. Some like to argue that burning alive isn't cruel...and lol. In the context of the show, Tyrion clearly sees burning as WORSE than beheading, because when Dany mentions that shes not beheading anyone, Tyrion is audibly desperate for her not to do so.

9) She forces Jon to give up his claim so she can be queen...but Wait...what happened to the rule of succession? She's seen evidence of the character of person Jon is and yet she forces him to keep his lineage a secret in order to usurp his crown. "What happens when they demand you press your claim and take what is mine?" UM... what... he is the heir to the Iron Throne. The Son of the Crown Prince in every rule of succession comes before the Sister of the Crown Prince.. In What world is the throne Dany's if Jon is who he says he is.. How is that not powerhungry of her to step over him to rule? Destiny? If so Varys put it best, Destiny is one of the easiest ways to justify cruelty.

Dany believing that she is the savior of men is simply a way for her to justify seeking complete authority whereever she goes. Her disregard of Jons claim unveils this pretty clearly and complete's her character arc, and I think her arc is pretty damn amazing. Tyrants don't become powerful unless they have some support from the people. They don't start off with total annihilation or they'd never get the support needed to start. No, they start off doing things that some people love. A lot of tyrants appear better than what came before (Castro and Bautista for ex), but they're not good. The fact that a lot of people are rooting for Daenerys is great and a lesson for us all, many of us don't realize and may even support a Tyrant until they're too powerful to be stopped. It subverts the Chosen One prophecy and shows us exactly what's wrong with that type of thinking..which is why I believe this will be in the books as well. (theres even more evidence for this in the books)

Thats why I loved Varys in the last episode bc he sees it ahead of time and really shows how smart a player he is.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

4000?


That is half


30 at best ran back

There were 100k Dothraki riders. They said that the past few seasons since she burned down the Khals

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

DUDES DID A WHOLE LOT OF CAPING
FOR THE TRAITOROUS TARLY FAMILY.

BUT THE INNOCENT MISSENDAI IS MURDERED
AND I DONT HEAR A PEEP.




​

That's probably cuz no one is in here claiming Cersei was justified in executing a POW.

 

[Jello Biafra]

Did Joffrey burn ned alive? Naw he was beheaded. You can't dispute shyt i said, that's why you're going to stop discussing. She burned father and son alive. Literally, only a mad King did that.

I was planning on stopping discussing this with you because only an incel would be fanboying Joffrey Baratheon and I don't fukk with incels.
But before I move on let's look back at some examples of the decency of Joffrey Baratheon:
Joffrey was so decent that he had the choice of sending Ned to The Wall to become a member of The Nightswatch or chopping his head off...he chose beheading Ned Stark instead
Joffrey was so decent he thought putting Ned's head on a spike was funny
Joffrey is so decent that he sent his guards into the streets of King's Landing to kill any child that could possibly be Robert Baratheon's b*stard
Joffrey is so decent he shot whores full of crossbow arrows

And that is just the murders he is responsible for...haven't even scratched the surface of the non-lethal acts of decency that we all saw from Joffrey.

 

[O.Red]

D&D needed GRRM to give them big moments to work towards and to imbue the show with all the subtlety and nuance that people loved this show for. It’s clear D&D misguidedly thought they could capture GRRMs style and tone but it’s obvious now that they don’t understand it as much as they thought.
Agree with you I don’t know how they rushed through all that book material so quickly. It’s clear they chose to retcon plot lines they weren’t interested in and it’s come back to bite them.

THIS

Stannis was the warning and Dorne was the red flag that exposed their strong bias

 

[Jello Biafra]

If you notice, no one is even manning the big cross bows. She could of destroyed all the archers, cersei, the mountain and all the weapons against her dragon in 3 seconds based on previous attacks from the dragon

No different then why she aint just turn left after she dodged all the arrows with Drogon and then flanked the ships and killed Euron and his entire fleet

2 more episodes.

The staging of that entire sequence was janky which is odd because the director (Miguel Sapochnik) usually pulls shyt like that off really well.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

HBO really shytted on themselves. Both previous seasons should have been the full 10 episodes. Would have cleared up 99% of these complaints if they had more time to flesh shyt out

They always force that speed up shyt on the last seasons of their shows. Sopranos, the wire, oz, etc

Never fails

 

[Jello Biafra]

HBO isn't rushing anything. HBO and GRRM wanted at least ten seasons but D&D said they wanted to end it at seven. HBO had to beg D&D to do season 8 and the 6 episode final season was the compromise. D&D have wanted to be done with Game of Thrones for awhile now so they can do other projects like Confederates and Star Wars.


-HBO Programing President Casey Bloys

HBO Confirms 'Game of Thrones' Will End With Season 8



-HBO programming president Michael Lombardo acknowledged the showrunners’ plan to wind down the series with two more years.

‘Game of Thrones’ Creators Mull Shorter Final Seasons (EXCLUSIVE)

I am still at HBO execs being steamrolled by the Double Ds to end their channel's cash cow before it's time.

I would have promoted from within, let them two guys go make their racist Confederate fan fiction and kept it moving.

 

[Peak]

This is a long post I found on another forum that defends the writers in their characterization of Dany. I always felt like Dany was going to end up as the Mad Queen when she get to Westeros so I don’t really get why people are acting like that is completely illogical. The steps they’ve taken to get her there has been rushed but the storyline is at least plausible.

Spoiler

Disclaimer: This is going based off show canon and not book canon.

Here is all the previous evidence of her poor decision making and themes in Dany's arc:

Barristan gives Dany some insight in Meereen that is quite applicable to Dany. "The Mad King gave his enemies the justice he deserved, and each time it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end"

1. In Meereen, Dany crucifies the Nobles indiscriminately without a trial, because she saw children crucified on her way to Meereen. While that is definitely sad, her actions are very impulsive and to a certain extent, cruel. Hizdahr Zo Loraq has to beg Daenerys to let his father's corpse off the cross despite the fact that he had no part in crucifying slaves. Not only is the fact that she lets the corpses rot on the cross impulsive, its insanely cruel. Cruelty should not breed cruelty or it will become an endless cycle. Crucifixion is an extremely painful way to die and she chose it willingly in order to make a point or show of force. This is a recurring theme that Dany will commit acts of extreme cruelty because she believes it is the right thing to do.
2. When Hizdahr goes to Yunkai, the masters of Yunkai agree to her terms except that they believe the fighting pits should remain open. Not too unreasonable..but Daenerys has always wanted complete authority, she rejects terms on the basis that she's a Queen, not a politician. Sound a bit too powerhungry to want unquestionable agreement from a city you conquered?
3. When Barristan is killed by the sons of the harpy, she immediately once again indiscriminately arrests the Nobles of Meereen. You'd think she learned her lesson about rushing to judgment but no. On top of that, she forces them into a dungeon to confront her dragons. Herself admitting that she has no idea who's innocent or guilty, she arbitrarily executes a master, for all we know could be innocent, by burning him alive. Wow, im sensing a pattern here. I'd like to point out it would be no trouble to her to have an executioner kill the master for her, and give him a more painless death but no, she chooses Dragon because Cruelty sends a message. She is not to be messed with.
4. When does she have a change of heart? When Hizdahr gets on his knees and begs for his life. That's what she wanted and she achieved her goal. Total and complete surrender. Not to mention Hizdahr never even says he intends to marry her, she in a way forces him to marry her. You might argue, but he could've said no... Totally, he can say no to the queen who just burned a random person alive in a show of force and who needs Hizdahr for political purposes to bring peace to Meereen.

*Brief tangent: Look at it from Hizdahr's POV. Dany arrives in Meereen, conquers the city and then executes his father for a crime he didn't commit. She then arrests anyone associated with his class, and arbitrarily executes a random person, and nearly him. Then when she finally realizes she can't rule without the support of at least some of his class, she forces him to marry her. Sound familiar? Joffrey becomes king, executes Ned, abuses all those associated with the Starks, and then when Robb wages war publicly and only keeps Sansa as his wife so that she can write to Robb to pledge fealty to Joffrey. Hizdahr is also stabbed during the attack in the pit, proving that he wasn't involved with the Harpy.

5) Tyrion's arrival in Meereen highlights her righteousness and belief in destiny. Im not going to stop the wheel, im going to break the wheel. Now some might say oh shes doing that for the people. Something something crushing those at the bottom. But when she asks Tyrion for help what does she ask for? How to help the people? No. To get what she wants. The Iron Throne. Her first thought is not about helping the people, its about getting the throne.

*Some might argue that she helps the North defeat the Night King, but in my opinion this can be explained pretty easily. 1) She loves Jon (who at this point is no threat to her rule and is actually an ally) and 2) She's seen the threat firsthand and it's pretty clear that if Jon and the North lose Winterfell, the Dead will defeat the entire realm.

6) When Meereen is attacked by the slavers, her first impulse is to burn their cities to the dirt. Only Tyrions counsel and comparisons to the Mad King stop her from embarking on her quest.

7) When Jon Snow arrives in Dragonstone, she demands his immediate surrender. She reminds him of the pledge his ancestor made to Aegon the Conqueror. She offers him nothing in return but when he refuses on the rightful ground that the pledge between Lord and King was broken when Dany's father burned his family members alive, she declares her father evil BUT she doesn't acknowledge that the pledge was broken and instead declares Jon in "Open Rebellion". Once again, demanding complete submission for absolutely nothing. She feels entitled to Jons loyalty simply on the basis of her ancestry without acknowledging that the Monarch is supposed to protect their vassals in exchange for fealty and that fealty is not a right. Im reminded of Book Varys's speech about Tommen thinking Kingship is a right and not a duty.

8) When the Tyrells are killed and she destroys the Lannister army in the Field of Fire, she captures the Tarlys. She has choices, prison, yada yada. Tyrion gives her advice to imprison them till they bend the knee, but that wouldnt be complete submission and it would never satisfy her. So she does what she thinks is right, and burns them alive. Once again, using cruelty as a show of force to make a point. Some like to argue that burning alive isn't cruel...and lol. In the context of the show, Tyrion clearly sees burning as WORSE than beheading, because when Dany mentions that shes not beheading anyone, Tyrion is audibly desperate for her not to do so.

9) She forces Jon to give up his claim so she can be queen...but Wait...what happened to the rule of succession? She's seen evidence of the character of person Jon is and yet she forces him to keep his lineage a secret in order to usurp his crown. "What happens when they demand you press your claim and take what is mine?" UM... what... he is the heir to the Iron Throne. The Son of the Crown Prince in every rule of succession comes before the Sister of the Crown Prince.. In What world is the throne Dany's if Jon is who he says he is.. How is that not powerhungry of her to step over him to rule? Destiny? If so Varys put it best, Destiny is one of the easiest ways to justify cruelty.

Dany believing that she is the savior of men is simply a way for her to justify seeking complete authority whereever she goes. Her disregard of Jons claim unveils this pretty clearly and complete's her character arc, and I think her arc is pretty damn amazing. Tyrants don't become powerful unless they have some support from the people. They don't start off with total annihilation or they'd never get the support needed to start. No, they start off doing things that some people love. A lot of tyrants appear better than what came before (Castro and Bautista for ex), but they're not good. The fact that a lot of people are rooting for Daenerys is great and a lesson for us all, many of us don't realize and may even support a Tyrant until they're too powerful to be stopped. It subverts the Chosen One prophecy and shows us exactly what's wrong with that type of thinking..which is why I believe this will be in the books as well. (theres even more evidence for this in the books)

Thats why I loved Varys in the last episode bc he sees it ahead of time and really shows how smart a player he is.

 

[Jello Biafra]

Everyone other than Oleanna told her that she couldn't just attack KL. Oleanna was setting her up for the okie-doke.

She was an outsider to Westeros. She had 0 allies, an army composed of "savages" and the Unsullied, and dragons that haven't been seen in centuries. The only 2 people on her team that knew Westeros were exiled traitors. Once she attacked KL, she would have no kingdom to rule, since the people would turn on her, and every other kingdom would come for her head. She is, afterall, kin to the Mad King.

I keep seeing this argument and I really don't see how anyone comes to this conclusion.
Cersei blew up a church full of innocent people and just moved on to not only take the crown after her bytch ass son killed himself but nobody besides Dany showed any interest in removing her form the Iron Throne.
Eliminate Dany and the Night King from the equation entirely and the weak backed people of Westeros were going to happily allow Cersei to rule until her latest incest b*stard became old enough to assume the throne.

 

[peppe]

 

[MidniteJay]

100% agree

If they actually continue with the mad queen angle it will be stupid as shyt. Who the fukk wouldn’t want revenge after losing another dragon and your only friend in life. There is nothing crazy or insane about that.

Maybe if they didn’t shorten the season so much they could have spent a few episodes on her going crazy about jon’s Heritage.



fukk these writers, got me actually defending Dany cause the script is shyt.

Yep. Genghis Khan wiped a whole country off the map after they denied him reparations for killing his emissaries. He did it many more times to enemies that resisted his "get down or lay down" offers. Those that fell back were able to keep their culture and gods, literacy promoted, got lower taxes, slavery and human trafficking was outlawed. Bodies on mountains of bodies but he goes down history as one of the most level-headed and intelligent conquerors of all time.

 

[Jello Biafra]

 

[YaThreadTrashB!]

There were 100k Dothraki riders. They said that the past few seasons since she burned down the Khals

I was talking about the unsullied


And there were not 100k Dothraki at winterfell. I know they previously said their were 100k when she was still in essos.