Official Black Panther MCU Thread
- Thread starter Birnin Zana
- Start date
Birnin Zana
Honorary Wakandan
Read the priest run, Hudlin run, See Wakanda and Die by Aaron, Mayberry run, liss run, Hickman's fantastic 4 featuring T'Challa, Ororo, and Shuri, among others.
Are you trying to say that the Hickman run for T'Challa in New Avengers is similar to the priest run? Cuz that's another point that I have to strongly disagree with.
Priest's T'Challa doesn't do even half of the bs we saw in New Avengers / Time Runs out.
Birnin Zana
Honorary Wakandan
We know the reason given for why he cried. We are saying, respecfully, that its a bunch of bullshyt.
Am I supposed to believe that T'Challa, a head of state who had to make major decisions on behalf of millions over and over again, a top 10 smartest character in the MU, a man who is KNOWN since the priest run at the least to think multiple steps ahead, and has been trained since his youth just for major shyt like this, would really not know whether or not he would be capable of pressing that damn button? Really?!
And when its time to use that bomb, when they have no other choice but to use it, NOW he decides to have a morality crisis? Not before the incursion. shyt, not even 5 minutes before. Right then and there, he decides "nah its a bad idea" ? Really?!
I hear this "retain his humanity" argument a lot. Yet no one mentions that he LITERALLY doomed not just his people and his country, but the ENTIRE damn world by not just pretending that he was about that life, but then by choking at the 11th hour when it counted. Only to be bailed out by fukkin NAMOR of all people. Where the hell is the heroism in that? Y'all don't see how that shyt looks like?
"Retaining his humanity" would mean that T'Challa would ACTUALLY be in character. As in, he would've left the illumunati cuz they were clearly way over their fukkin heads (something he has done before, AND low key predicted when they had their first meeting years ago), throw that "bomb a planet" idea to the bushes (he knows he's not about that life, so he doesn't do it), try finding another solution (something he does every damn time), fess up to Shuri about everything and use whatever resources Wakanda has in his arsenal (putting his people first and trusting his people and his country, something he does every damn time) and then find every and anyone else who can help, even if its fukking Doom (T'Challa and Doom have worked before historically, even despite their disagreements. And its ironic, as doom has probably gone further than most at this point), or even other members of the illuminati who may low key agree with T'Challa in the matter. And if that fails in the end, so be it. T'Challa at least can hold his head high knowing he truly did it in his terms, and his way. THAT, would be retaining his humanity. THAT would be heroic. THAT would be doing it the T'Challa way.
Instead, what we got was a CB4 Panther who pretended to be on some uber killer "by any means" panther, who thought he was tough shyt, only to flounder like a punk when it matters most. More unfortunate, I saw a borderline fraud who was caught fronting by his ancestors and who maybe, jussssttttt maybe, didn't deserve to hold the title of a Black Panther. Dude threw his number one directive, the protection and survival of wakanda, to the bushes cuz of some shyt a dude as smart and attentive as he is should've seen a mile away. And to top it off, there he is, crying like little kid about it.
I expect that kind of fukkery from the other heroes: they aren't heads of state that have to make decision for millions everyday. Dudes like Namor, T'Challa, and Black Bolt have done that kinda shyt FOR YEARS! Is it an easy decision, specially in this case? HELL NAW! But the point is, T'Challa signed up for the fukking job! He doesn't want to make those kind of decisions, he might as well quit!
And btw, lets be 100: if this was SHURI doing everything T'Challa was doing in those moments, y'all would be shytting on her as a character till oblivion. But apparently because its T'Challa doing it, for some reason brehs are willing to let some bullshyt writing slide.
Again, hickman is a good writer and wrote a good story. But lets not pretend he didn't threw T'Challa's characterization for a fukkin loop along the way. And at this point, I doubt T'Challa will get any worthy payoff to make up for all the crap that happened to him.
Good thing we have Ultimates, and have the Coates run and the movies coming up. I can slowly but surely (and hopefully) mentally disregard the hickman stuff as time goes on.
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We know the reason given for why he cried. We are saying, respecfully, that its a bunch of bullshyt.
You want me to believe that T'Challa, a head of state who had to make major decisions on behalf of millions over and over again, a top 10 smartest character in the MU, a man who is KNOWN since the priest run at the least to think multiple steps ahead, would really not know whether or not he would be capable of pressing that damn button? Really?!
And when its time to use that bomb, when they have no other choice but to use it, NOW he decides to have a morality crisis? Not before the incursion. shyt, not even 5 minutes before. Right then and there, he decides "nah its a bad idea" ? Really?!
I hear this "retain his humanity" argument a lot. Yet no one mentions that he LITERALLY doomed not just his people and his country, but the ENTIRE damn world by not just pretending that he was about that life, but then by choking at the 11th hour when it counted. Only to be bailed out by fukkin NAMOR of all people. Where the hell is the heroism in that? Y'all don't see how that shyt looks like?
"Retaining his humanity" would mean that T'Challa would ACTUALLY be in character. As in, he would've left the illumunati cuz they were clearly way over their fukkin heads (something he has done before), throw that "bomb a planet" idea to the bushes (he knows he's not about that life, so he doesn't do it), try finding another solution (something he does every damn time), fess up to Shuri about everything and use whatever resources Wakanda has in his arsenal (putting his people first and trusting his people and his country, something he does every damn time) and then find every and anyone else who can help, even if its fukking Doom (T'Challa and Doom have worked before historically, even despite their disagreements. And its ironic, as doom has probably gone further than most at this point). And if that fails, so be it. He truly did it in his terms, and his way. THAT, would be retaining his humanity. THAT would be heroic. THAT would be doing it the T'Challa way.
Instead, what we got was a CB4 Panther who pretended to be on some uber killer "by any means" panther, who thought he was tough shyt, only to flounder like a punk when it matters most. More unfortunate, I saw a borderline fraud who was caught fronting by his ancestors and who maybe, jussssttttt maybe, didn't deserve to hold the title of a Black Panther. Dude threw his number one directive, the protection and survival of wakanda, to the bushes cuz of some shyt a dude as smart and attentive as he is should've seen a mile away. And to top it off, there he is, crying like little kid about it.
I expect that kind of fukkery from the other heroes: they aren't heads of state that have to make decision for millions everyday. Dudes like Namor, T'Challa, and Black Bolt have done that kinda shyt FOR YEARS! Is it an easy decision, specially in this case? HELL NAW! But the point is, T'Challa signed up for the fukking job! He doesn't want to make those kind of decisions, he might as well quit!
And btw, lets be 100: if this was SHURI doing everything T'Challa was doing in those moments, y'all would be shytting on her as a character till oblivion. But apparently because its T'Challa doing it, for some reason brehs are willing to let some bullshyt writing slide.
Again, hickman is a good writer and wrote a good story. But lets not pretend he didn't threw T'Challa's characterization for a fukkin loop along the way. And at this point, I doubt T'Challa will get any worthy payoff to make up for all the crap that happened to him.
Good thing we have Ultimates, and have the Coates run and the movies coming up. I can slowly but surely (and hopefully) mentally disregard the hickman stuff as time goes on.
I was going to respond to @TheGodling but you just summed it all up beautufully.
Except the "respectively" part
if anybody REALLY thinks that Hickman having the KING OF fukkING WAKANDA beak down and cry like a little bytch is treating him with any type of "respect" then your crazy. T'Challa took SO many L's it was ridiculous, and not saying he's supposed to be some all powerful God who never loses, but when he DOES lose its supposed to be WITHIN character, and like every CAC SUPERHERO WHO EVER EXISTED he is supposed to be given his moment of redemption and retribution.Hickman went OUT of his way to the tenth power to portray T'Challa out of character. T'Challa is MORE than capable of "retaining his humanity" without breaking down into an emasculated pile of snot and tears. This is the man who looked his MORTAL ENEMY in the face as said enemy was threatening to slit his MOTHER'S NECK and told him to go to hell. When T'Challa makes decisions, he MAKES decisions and if he second guesses or has a change of heart it's for the RIGHT and CALCULATED reasons. T'Challa wouldn't cry at his dead father's feet, because if he decided not to push the button then that goddamn button ain't getting pushed PERIOD.
Again fukk Hickman, and don't even try to come at me with the "bu bu...BUT he's got the Infinity Guantlet! It's ALL ok now!". We ALL know Hickman's Cac Hard-on is for Doom Vs Reed. BP is going to come at Doom on some Finn vs Kylo shyt and all powerful, invincible Doom is going to knock him into unconsciousness. Leaving Reed to miraculously save the day. Perhaps Sue will give T'Challa a light kiss on his forehead while he's in a coma for his troubles....
Nope. All of Priests, some of Hudlins, and none of Hickmans.
I think I have to go through all of Hudlins run though. Seems like the homie deserves a fair shake even after the suspect start.
The main problem with Hudlin's run was that he kind of pulled a Bendis without the positive Bendis brings to a title. He completely wrote people out of character, went against and completely changed established continuity to tell the stories he wants to and wrote Black Panther as a near infallible, always winning character. Which is fine, but one of the things that people love from most of their Marvel characters are the flawed aspects and the struggle. There was no struggle in Hudlin's run. I defy you to name a memorable villain from it lol. You can't complain about Superman or BatGod EVER if you enjoyed Hudlin's run.
But if you are a fan of the character, I'd say check it out, its at least worth a case study if anything.
No I am not.
What I am comparing is Hudlin's run on the character to other established writers of the character in content, story arcs, character arcs and quality.
I feel Hickman captured the essence of what T'Challa the MAN is better than Hudlin did. He defied his duties as Black Panther (which he has done numerous times in the past anyway) to retain his humanity. I'm falling to see what is "bad" about that unless you prefer the dutiful aspects of the character.
And EACH member of the Illuminati wound up having a breakdown in Hickman's run. Black Panther was no exception. I don't see why that is a knock on him, when Namor, Reed, Strange, Tony and everyone else did something similar.
Honestly, I think it was pretty bad from the start but it got better mainly because I think Hudlin kind of got better at writing comics as he went along. Like seriously, if you ever read that run issue per issue one per month, it was almost maddening .
Birnin Zana
Honorary Wakandan
That's the thing. I don't think Hickman got the the essence of T'Challa the man either. The man took his duties very seriously. And him having a breakdown in of itself has never been the main issue. My issue (and surely those of others) has been WHY he is having the breakdown.
Straying from his duties every once in a while is one thing, but when the hell has he ever directly and deliberately put Wakanda at harms way as much as he did in New Avengers? Dude was doing some rather amateurish shyt for a guy who was king for some time.
And honestly, T'Challa's duties >>>>> his humanity, especially when Wakanda itself is at stake. That's comes with the job. Hence why T'Challa can be stoic and distant to a lot of people. And if he felt his humanity was so important, then he should've tried to find another way (something he does often), instead of not going with the plan that he cosigned and dooming his world as a result.
Birnin Zana
Honorary Wakandan
I actually agree with that assessment. The run had a rough start at the beginning, but as time went on, it's as if Hudlin began having a hang of writing a comic book and integrating continuity to his run. The way it ended was much better than how it started.
However, @Great Scott, I'd recommed you read it for yourself and make your judgment from there. Opinions of the Hudlin are really 50/50 imho.
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Sauanaffe Tustunnagee
Banned
@TheGodling, @Ziggiy, I'm continuing our debate from the Ryan Coogler thread here. Didn't want to derail that thread.
Apparently, Alonso played interference a lot for Hudlin when he was Hudlin's editor during the run. So when Alonso moved up, Hudlin decided it was time to go.
T'Challa and even Wakanda taking an L wasn't my issue. It's the lack of retribution.
After Doom started a coup in Wakanda, murked T'Challa's uncle, threatned T'Challa's moms, slapped the shyt out of T'Challa's wife, stole all of Wakanda's vibranium, and had the blood of many Wakandans in his hands, I'm supposed to believe that the best T'Challa and Shuri could do was to give some stupid ass equivalent of "You disrespected us, but we won't stoop to you level" bullshyt black characters tell to non-black characters that disrespect them and their loved ones in various mediums? Then get rid of ALL of the vibranium (which Hickman fixed, props to him for that)? Really??!?!?
Killing doom in this event wouldn't happen of course. But anything short of T'Challa and Shuri (and especially T'Challa) beating the shyt outta Doom and kicking him to the curb, or something similar, would not be enough retribution for what Doom has done to T'Challa, his fam, and his people. fukk all the "we are civilized" bullshyt. Didn't stop them from murking the desturi. But wouldn't give doom the beats. fukk that.
Hickman didn't have to make T'Challa look like an idiot, a bytch, and dare I say something vaguely resembling a distant equivalent of a Wakandan c00n / sellout in the process. He basically ignored a lot of T'Challa's previous characterization to make the story happen.
I mean, Shuri held Wakanda down waaaaaaaaayyyy harder than T'Challa ever did in that story. And she did it with out even half the intel because her bytch ass of a brother wouldn't tell her wtf was going on vis-a-vis the incursions. Hickman got me rooting for Shuri over T'Challa.
Then T'Challa dooms his people and his world because he wouldn't go through with a plan HE cosigned, while crying like a little kid, only to be bailed by a dude who later on basically says (I'm paraphrasing) "i drowned those wakandans before, and I would do it again". Then when it came time to kill Namor, breh started acting like a bond villain all the sudden and fukked it up.
-Don't tell your own people about world-ending events that threaten your own people brehs.
-Rightfully get called a bytch by your own secret police brehs.
-Harbor an enemy of your own country while your own country is fighting his country brehs.
-Rightfully get called a traitor by your own bodyguards who would take a bullet for you brehs.
-Get rightfully banned from your country by your own sister cuz she found out about your traitorous, bytch ass actions brehs.
-Cosign a plan that may involve blowing up habitable planets, when you aren't about that life brehs.
-Doom your own people and world cuz you have a last minute morality crisis brehs (seriously, this dude was a king?!)
-Get disowned by your entire lineage AND your pops cuz you doomed your own people and world brehs.
-Get bailed out by an enemy of your country brehs.
-fukk up a plan to kill said enemy of your country and get retribution for your people because you felt like flexing like a bond villain brehs.
Hickman's a good writer, and New Avengers / Time Runs Out / Secret Wars as a story is not bad all, if not good. but his portrayal of T'Challa can get all the way the foh
They had this man BEGGING Ororoe not to bed-wench with Wolverine.
The muthafukking BLACK PANTHER, Who was the one who ANNULED the Union in the first place (had problems with that too) begging his ex on some Coli The Locker Room shyt. "Please Not Him". WTF!?!!?!?
It's too early for this.... It's just too early to be getting murderously upset over comic books....
But seriously
We went from this
To THIS
To THIS
To one of the single most despicable panels Marvel comic history
i'm only familiar with BP from BET animated miniseries(which i enjoyed for the most part) in which he came off as kinda apathetic toward most everyone but(his father) and calculating(even though his plans didn't always make sense) and lowkey militant....one thing he wasn't was weak so it's disheartening to hear it sounds like he has been written as Morgan/T-Dog type super safe negro in the comics lately
..while i would have liked to see T'Challa show more personality/emotion and empathy(particularly for his mom/sister) this aint what i had in mind
what is the point of BP headlining his own franchise if breh keep getting chumped and taking Ls without redeeming himself
and i was just excited about finally finding the Black Panther comics 
hopefully the movie brings some dignity back to the character and the breh whom authorting the next chapter of BP comics start portraying T'Challa more respectably
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Birnin Zana
Honorary Wakandan
Maaaaaan, when I saw folks being excited about T'Challa having the gauntlet...I was happy and all, but then what?
Cuz if previous portrayals are an indicator, T'Challa is just gonna say a few things, get a couple hits here and there, and then doom might just give him the beats, despite him having the gauntlet.
I reaaaallllllly wanna eat crow and see T'Challa get a good payoff, but he really hasn't had one in this story in.......never? Why will it start now?
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Bryan Danielson
Jmare007 x Bryan Danielson x JLova = King Ghidorah
Sounds like all you niccas disgusted with that deconstruction of BP need to roll over to that PowerMan set
Birnin Zana
Honorary Wakandan
Sounds like all you niccas disgusted with that deconstruction of BP need to roll over to that PowerMan set
Nah, if the bullshyt continues, imma roll with Nighthawk. Dude looks legit. I would roll with Shuri, but she def ain't big enough of a character yet to have a solo. Plus, she might stay dead.
Shout out to power man though.
Sounds like all you niccas disgusted with that deconstruction of BP need to roll over to that PowerMan set
NEVER
BLACK PANTHER FOR LIFE nikka