hex

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As far as the movie itself, it's objectively the best in the MCU. The only real competition is "The Winter Soldier" and "Civil War"....but neither of those are standalone focused on a single character and neither are the first outing for the character. So even if you could argue those are better....neither are working with as little as "Black Panther".

It's a damn shame that in one movie Wakanda is more fleshed out than Asgard was in three movies. I like the rest of the MCU movies just fine (and don't like a few) but if they took their time like this with the rest of their movies, their cinematic universe would be 100x better.

As far as Killmonger....
they seriously fukked up killing him off.

He's the best villain in the MCU by a wide margin.

I haven't read much about this movie, mostly because I wanted to avoid spoilers, but the closest real life analog to Killmonger is Khalid Muhammad. Maybe someone else mentioned that, but I haven't seen it.

Fred.
 

Reece

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And before that Killmonger was working with Klaw who was a terrorist outsider....who stole from Wakanda....who killed innocent Wakandans when he stole the vibranium.

The only reason he killed him and showed up with the dead body was to make people doubt T'Challa. He didn't do it because he gave a fukk about justice.
How far back do we go with this cheating shyt? :jbhmm:

Matter of fact, let's say Zuri never interferes and T'Challa dies. Killmonger still burns all the Heart Shaped Herbs....meaning he don't give a fukk about playing by the rules.

Fred.

You didn't answer my questions though breh. You know if T'Challa got killed because someone else interfered, it would be cheating. You ain't gonna admit to it though :mjlol:

There would be no Killmonger if T'Chaka didn't leave his brother's body in the kid's living room like garbage.

We do our own brothers like that now breh :picard:

Wakanda was sitting on trillions of dollars and couldn't even leave his nephew a trust fund :picard:
 

hex

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You didn't answer my questions though breh. You know if T'Challa got killed because someone else interfered, it would be cheating. You ain't gonna admit to it though :mjlol:

There would be no Killmonger if T'Chaka didn't leave his brother's body in the kid's living room like garbage.

We do our own brothers like that now breh :picard:

Wakanda was sitting on trillions of dollars and couldn't even leave his nephew a trust fund :picard:

:francis:

So now that's T'Challa's fault? He had no idea Killmonger even existed. And when he found out, he clearly wasn't feeling them leaving him an orphan in America.

I didn't answer your question because Killmonger never gave a fukk they cheated. If he said "you cheated, so I'm throwing tradition out the window!" (or something better than that, I dunno, I'm not a writer) then ok cool. I get his actions. As it stands he won vs T'Challa....then proceeded to burn all the Herbs. Then T'Challa shows back up (again....no mention of "b bu but you cheated!"....no knowledge of them healing him....no knowledge they gave him an Herb) and proceeds to tell his army to kill T'Challa....despite the fact that the match wasn't over, as neither side yielded or died.

Long story short, them "cheating" didn't factor into Killmonger's actions or decisions....so why is it a topic of discussion?

And all of this is still ignoring the fact that Killmonger worked with a terrorist that attacked Wakanda.

Fred.
 

mr x

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BLACK PANTHER CHEATED AND USED THE HEART SHAPED HERB TO STAY ALIVE .... HIS CHALLENGE WAS NOT VALID BECAUSE HIS MOTHER INTERFERED WITH THE FAIR PROCESS OF THE ORIGINAL CHALLENGE ...AND ZURI STOPPED KILLMONGER FROM FINISHING HIM WHICH WAS MORE CHEATING ....NOTHING ABOUT THAT FOLLOWED TRADITION ...JUST CHANGING THE RULES TO FIT THEM



what part of that is difficult for nikkas to comprehend?

NO HE COULDNT FIGHT AGAIN HE WAS IN A COMA


IF YOU WANT TO RUN WITH “HE WAS STILL ALIVE” THAT MEANS THE CHALLANGE WAS STILL IN PROCESS AND THEY CHEATED BY INTERFERING WITH THE PROCESS ....KILLMOMGER SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO HIM AT THAT POINT AND IF HE COULDNT FIGHT ANYMORE OR IF KILLMOMGER WANTED TO FINISH HIM THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN FAIR AND HONORABLE... CHEATING IS NOT HONORABLE CHEATING IS NOT A PART OF TRADITION


EITHER YOU HAVE RULES OR YOU DONT ....EITHER YOUR PRICIPLES MATTER OR THEY DONT ... EITHER YOUR TRADITIONS ARE UPHELD ARE THEY ARENT


OBVIOUSLY THE WAKANDANS ONLY BELIVE IN DOING THINGS RIGHT WHEN ITS CONVENIENT

:snoop:@ “ITS OK THEY CHEATED THAT DOESNT MATTER”

#SUPERFACTS

full
 

Left.A1

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Technically, Killmonger cheated his way into Wakanda. He was given the lip tattoo by his father, but he didn't really get stamped in Wakanda. Also, his father is a traitor and he goes and does business with the same white dude who his father helped steal from the Wakandans. So he's a traitor too. I mean if you really want to talk about cheating, he shouldn't even been allowed to challenge at all. Also ritual combat rules don't allow Killmonger to kill Zuri either. Might want to leave this line of argument alone because Killmonger doesn't win in any of them.
What the hell are you talking about ...his blood uncle is T’Chaka his grandfather is Azzuri.. his connection to wakanda is a birthright as a descendent of one of the royal tribes ...you nikkas are making up random nonsense to defend the goofy ass fukkery at this point :mjlol:
Lmao @ “Cheated his way into wakanda” when he’s Wakandan Royalty


If his father is a traitor than so is T’Chaka for turning his back on a Wakandan descendent and leaving Killmonger in Oakland unprotected ...so by your own dumb logic T’Challa shouldn’t be BP either

And with all that said it was Killmonger not T’Chaka not T’Challa who brought Klaw to Justice ... how in the hell does that make him a traitor LMAO

All of this shyt that your talking about sounds retarded


THE FACT is the Wakandans didn’t abide to their own edicts and blatantly cheated Killmonger out of his rightful position ... USING BP POWERS DURING A CHALLANGE IS NOT PERMITTED... point blank period ...all these goofy excuses that you nikkas are using sound hilarious
 

Left.A1

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T’Challa didn’t yield, he didn’t die, and the herb doesn’t grant you everlasting life. The challenge wasn’t over. T’Challa gave him the challenge that day in the first place rather than killing him or making him wait weeks. Killmonger had to do the same. He didn’t, and he caught the L.
The herb is the source of the BP powers which is NOT PERMITTED DURING AN ACTIVE CHALLENGE ....IF THE CHALLENGE WASNT OVER TCHALLA’S MOTHER CHEATED BY GIVING HIM THE HERB TO RESTORE HIS HEALTH ..DURING AN ONGOING CHALLANGE



nikkas are literally in here making shyt up to excuse this nonsense instead of just saying ... “yeah they cheated weren’t honorable in denying Killmomger but hey we like TChalla” lol


nikkas are literally suffering from SEVERE cognitive dissonance in this thread with this shyt man ...WOW
:snoop:
 
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hex

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And with all that said it was Killmonger not T’Chaka not T’Challa who brought Klaw to Justice ... how in the hell does that make him a traitor LMAO

I'm gonna focus on this specifically because the rest of the stuff has been debated the last couple pages.

He's a traitor because he allied himself with Klaw. The sole reason he was in a position to "bring Klaw to justice" is he helped him in the first place.

If he gave a fukk about actually doing the right thing....not making himself look good....then he could've #1 just went straight to Wakanda and used his birth right to challenge T'Challa or #2 brought Klaw to justice with no strings attached.

And I'm :dead: at "it was Killmonger not T'Challa who brought Klaw to justice"....HOW SWAY? Did you forget that T'Challa already had Klaw locked up and Killmonger helped him escape? :what:

You're basically giving Killmonger credit for solving a problem he created himself.

Fred.
 

Left.A1

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Zuri interfered out of conscious guilt Zuri felt Erik's dad was dead because of him and he rather himself die than T'Challa. What you're saying only makes sense in a vacuum with nothing else surrounding it and technically, Erik was falsely proclaimed King and took the heart shaped herb from a false victory. At that point it wasn't no fair one.
A false victory how? What are you even talking about? M’Baku himself said that T’Challa was left for dead in a coma and if they took him out of the ice he would immediately perish ... it was only his mother his girlfriend and sister going against tradition and interfering that prevented nature from taking its course


I find it amazing that Interfering and going against the tradition of their people was ok because Zuri had a guilty conscious :mjlol:


This shyt is amazing what I’m seeing you nikkas come up with .... how quickly nikkas will just toss their values to the side to justify what they want to see happen ... shyt is actually deep and true to life frfr :scust:
 

Khalil's_Black_Excellence

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A false victory how? What are you even talking about? M’Baku himself said that T’Challa was left for dead in a coma and if they took him out of the ice he would immediately perish ... it was only his mother his girlfriend and sister going against tradition and interfering that prevented nature from taking its course


I find it amazing that Interfering and going against the tradition of their people was ok because Zuri had a guilty conscious :mjlol:


This shyt is amazing what I’m seeing you nikkas come up with .... how quickly nikkas will just toss their values to the side to justify what they want to see happen ... shyt is actually deep and true to life frfr :scust:

Ahh...yeah, like how all ya'll Killmonger wimpathizers do to justify all his murders and vile acts, just cuz ya smitten with his "swag" and agreed with his message. Pot meeting the kettle.
 
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Left.A1

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The problem with this logic is Killmonger "cheated" by burning all the Heart Shaped Herbs....meaning no matter what, fair or no, regardless of if T'Challa is dead or not, he never intended to give up the throne to anyone. Which is throwing tradition out the window, anyway.
Burning the herbs had no bearing on his CHALLANGE with T’Challa or his right to the crown as the herbs are not supposed to be involved in that process anyways... this is more nothing to do with nothing talk that y’all keep running to
:snoop:

And even if you could argue T'Challa and the Wakandans "cheated" by giving BP the Herb, healing him, etc....keep in mind Killmonger didn't know any of that.
It’s ok they cheated because “he didn’t know” that they cheated


The last time he seen BP he tossed him off a cliff....then he shows back up, offers a fair one-on-one and Killmonger tells his army to attack BP. Why? Because he didn't care about doing things the right way. He just cared about winning.

Fred.

No it’s becuase he wasn’t a fukking idiot ... he threw a mortal man off the side of what looked like an at least 100 story clif after stabbing him with a spear and you think he was dumb enough to belive there was no interference when he shows back up IN HIS SUIT when T’Challa didn’t fight him on the waterfall with his BP necklace on
:heh:


Y’all boys too much mayne lol
 

hex

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Burning the herbs had no bearing on his CHALLANGE with T’Challa or his right to the crown as the herbs are not supposed to be involved in that process anyways... this is more nothing to do with nothing talk that y’all keep running to
:snoop:


It’s ok they cheated because “he didn’t know” that they cheated




No it’s becuase he wasn’t a fukking idiot ... he threw a mortal man off the side of what looked like an at least 100 story clif after stabbing him with a spear and you think he was dumb enough to belive there was no interference when he shows back up IN HIS SUIT when T’Challa didn’t fight him on the waterfall with his BP necklace on
:heh:


Y’all boys too much mayne lol

Breh I think Killmonger is a great villain but you're coming off like a stan.

I never said it's ok they cheated....I said Killmonger didn't care. Never mentioned it. None of the foul shyt he did was a result of it. So why keep harping on it?

Because it's not "right"....ok cool. Now we're getting somewhere. But if we're examining character motivations....why ignore the fact that Killmonger allied himself with Klaw....who is an outsider terrorist? Why does literally none of your posts in here address that?

You even go as far as to give Killmonger credit for "bringing Klaw to justice" when he was free because of Killmonger.

Like I said, stan shyt. Especially the last part. shyt is the definition of this gif:

gmXXC4Z.gif


"Well, see what happened was Killmonger told his army to attack because he assumed there was interference"....WHAT? :dead:

So you can read character's minds now? Okoye told Killmonger the fight was still on because neither side died or yielded and he point blank "fukk that". He didn't start copping pleas about "b bu but they cheated....they helped him....there was interference!"....dude just flat out didn't want a fair fight once he had the throne. Which is why he burned the Herbs.

Fred.
 

Left.A1

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I'm gonna focus on this specifically because the rest of the stuff has been debated the last couple pages.

He's a traitor because he allied himself with Klaw. The sole reason he was in a position to "bring Klaw to justice" is he helped him in the first place.
Helped him do what? HE PLAYED KLAW used him and the stolen vibranium as a way to draw out T’Challa ... why do you think the vibranium had a tracking device on it and they were able to find where he was being held?
:snoop:

He killed two birds with one stone ..

1.Made T’Challa look like a failure to the Wakandan leaders just like his dad was

2.Gave him the opportunity to use Klaw as a token of acceptance specifically to the boarder tribe which I’m sure he knew had a distinct hatred for klaw

If he gave a fukk about actually doing the right thing....not making himself look good....then he could've #1 just went straight to Wakanda and used his birth right to challenge T'Challa or #2 brought Klaw to justice with no strings attached.
Nobody said anything about Killmomger being righteous..you’re creating a Strawman ...But there are tactical benefits to introducing himself to Wakanda the way he chose to ...which I already said

And I'm :dead: at "it was Killmonger not T'Challa who brought Klaw to justice"....HOW SWAY? Did you forget that T'Challa already had Klaw locked up and Killmonger helped him escape? :what:

You're basically giving Killmonger credit for solving a problem he created himself.

Fred.
Correct
 

NobodyReally

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I like this article, with one exception. It credits Killmonger for completely changing T'Challa's mind, but it doesn't acknowledge that Nakia was already working on him. Both Nakia and Killmonger were two sides of the same coins. One was more extreme, but they both disagreed with T'Challa and Wakandans about their isolationist stance. Good piece though.

The Tragedy of Erik Killmonger


The Tragedy of Erik Killmonger
The revolutionary ideals of Black Panther’s profound and complex villain have been twisted into a desire for hegemony.

lead_960.jpg

Erik Killmonger (Michael B. Jordan) and W'Kabi (Daniel Kaluuya) in Black PantherMarvel


The following article contains major spoilers.

Black Panther is a love letter to people of African descent all over the world. Its actors, its costume design, its music, and countless other facets of the film are drawn from all over the continent and its diaspora, in a science-fiction celebration of the imaginary country of Wakanda, a high-tech utopia that is a fictive manifestation of African potential unfettered by slavery and colonialism.

But it is first and foremost an African American love letter, and as such it is consumed with The Void, the psychic and cultural wound caused by the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, the loss of life, culture, language, and history that could never be restored. It is the attempt to penetrate The Void that brought us Alex Haley’s Roots, that draws thousands of African Americans across the ocean to visit West Africa every year, that left me crumpled on the rocks outside the Door of No Return at Gorée Island’s slave house as I stared out over a horizon that my ancestors might have traversed once and forever. Because all they have was lost to The Void, I can never know who they were, and neither can anyone else.

It is also The Void that creates Michael B. Jordan’s Erik Killmonger, the antagonist of Black Panther, cousin to Chadwick Boseman’s protagonist King T’Challa and a comic-book villain so transcendent that he is almost out of place in a film about a superhero who dresses as a cat. Black Panther is about a highly advanced African kingdom, yes, but its core theme is Pan-Africanism, a belief that no matter how seemingly distant black people’s lives and struggles are from each other, we are in a sense “cousins” who bear a responsibility to help one another escape oppression. And so the director Ryan Coogler asks, if an African superpower like Wakanda existed, with all its power, its monopoly on the invaluable sci-fi metal vibranium, and its advanced technology, how could it have remained silent, remained still, as millions of Africans were devoured by The Void?

“Two billion people all over the world who look like us whose lives are much harder, and Wakanda has the tools to liberate them all,” Killmonger scolds the Wakandan court. “Where was Wakanda?”

Killmonger has come to Wakanda as a conqueror. His father N’Jobu facilitated the theft of vibranium in an attempt to arm black people all over the world against their oppressors; N’Jobu is killed by T’Challa’s father T’Chaka for his insubordinate attempt to end the centuries of isolation that have kept Wakanda safe. T’Chaka abandons Killmonger in Oakland, California (the birthplace of the Black Panther Party), leaving Killmonger literally and figuratively an orphan, who sees in his lost homeland a chance to avenge the millions of black people extinguished in The Void, and those who still suffer in its wake.

Killmonger’s stated purpose, to liberate black people all over the world, has sparked a lively discussion over whether he is a bad guy to begin with. What could be so bad about black liberation? “I fist-pumped in the silent, dark theater when he was laying out his plans,” writes Brooke Obie at Shadow and Act. “IT’S A GOOD IDEA!” That Coogler’s villain has even inspired this debate is a testament to how profound and complex the character is.

“In the end, all comes down to a contest between T’Challa and Killmonger that can only be read one way,” writes Christopher Lebron in a well-argued piece in Boston Review, “in a world marked by racism, a man of African nobility must fight his own blood relative whose goal is the global liberation of blacks.”

This is not actually what happens in the film. Killmonger’s goal is, in his eyes, the global liberation of black people. But that is not truly his goal, as Coogler makes clear in the text of the script and in Killmonger’s interactions with other characters. Like Magneto, another comic-book character who is a creation of historical trauma—the Holocaust instead of the Middle Passage—Killmonger’s goal is world domination. “The sun will never set on the Wakandan empire,” Killmonger declares, echoing an old saying about the British Empire, to drive the point home as clearly as possible. He sees no future beyond his own reign; he burns the magic herbs Wakandan monarchs use to gain their powers because he does not even intend to have an heir.

It is remarkable that many viewers seem to have taken the “liberation” part at face value, and ignored the “empire” part, which Jordan delivers perfectly. They are equally important. Killmonger’s plan for “black liberation,” arming insurgencies all over the world, is an American policy that has backfired and led to unforeseen disasters perhaps every single time it has been deployed; it is somewhat bizarre to see people endorse a comic-book version of George W. Bush’s foreign policy and sign up for the Project for the New Wakandan Centuryas long as the words “black liberation” are used instead of “democracy promotion.” Killmonger’s assault begins in London, New York, and Hong Kong; China is not typically known as a particularly good example of white Western hegemony in need of overthrow.

There are other Wakandan characters who wish to end the kingdom’s isolation for reasons of their own. Lupita Nyong’o’s Nakia is seen at the beginning of the film rescuing people from a Boko Haram–type militia, and later urges T’Challa to take in refugees; T’Challa refuses, citing Wakanda’s tradition of isolationism. Killmonger seeks more than aid or revolution—he seeks hegemony. Here, there are echoes of the breakdown of the original Black Panther Party in its later years, as radicalized chapters sought a direct armed struggle to overthrow the U.S. government—a plan that most of the Party’s established leadership saw as folly. In so doing, the film’s conflict symbolizes, as my colleague Vann Newkirk writes, an old argument over “the nature of power and the rightness of its use” that has long “dominated black thought in the United States,” and even beyond.

“You want to see us become just like the people you hate so much,” T’Challa tells Killmonger during their climactic battle. “I learn from my enemies,” Killmonger retorts. “You have become them,” T’Challa responds. That the climactic battle in Black Panther is a bloodbath between Wakandan factions is no accident; it is Killmonger putting the never-colonized Wakanda through a taste of colonialism in microcosm. In one of many sly references to the Black Panther Party, it is Wakanda’s women—Nakia, Danai Gurira’s General Okoye, Letitia Wright’s Princess Shuri, Angela Bassett’s Queen-Mother Ramonda—who sustain Wakanda through its darkest moments. Where T’Challa cannot survive or triumph without Okoye, Shuri, or Ramonda, Killmonger is alone. His African American mother is absent from the story; Killmonger kills his own lover the moment her body stands between him and his ideological ambitions.

The following distinction is crucial: Black Panther does not render a verdict that violence is an unacceptable tool of black liberation—to the contrary, that is precisely how Wakanda is liberated. It renders a verdict on imperialism as a tool of black liberation, to say that the master’s tools cannot dismantle the master’s house.

Yet because Killmonger’s plans are rooted in a recognizable idealism and a wounded soul, the audience is supposed to empathize with him, even care for him. Viewers are meant to mourn him as T’Challa does when he dies, invoking his ancestors who chose to be consumed by The Void rather than toil in bondage. When T’Challa goes to the spirit world, he sees his ancestors. When Killmonger goes, in one of the most moving scenes in the film, he sees only his father; the rest of his ancestors have been lost to The Void. He is alone in a way T’Challa can never comprehend. So like his father N’Jobu, Killmonger is radicalized. “We can rule over them all the right way,” N’Jobu says during a flashback.

Killmonger himself is a kind of avatar of the BPP’s deterioration in its latter years, when rebelling against white supremacy gave way to internecine bloodshed. He embodies the Black Panther Party’s revolutionary possibility and noble intentions, but also its degeneration into fratricidal violence, and a sexism that persisted despite party doctrine. The film’s title thus has a double meaning, an indication of the gravity of Killmonger’s character—a Black Panther against the Black Panther. In one of the many subtle touches Coogler adds to a film in a genre not known for them, Black Panther ambiguously refers to either of them.

It is also a mistake, to, as Lebron does, view Killmonger as “as a receptacle for tropes of inner-city gangsterism.” Killmonger is not a product of the ghetto, so much as he is a product of the American military-industrial complex. Here too, the script is explicit. Noting Killmonger’s technical background (he studied at MIT) and his war record (tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, even in Africa where, he acknowledges, “ I killed my own brothers and sisters on this continent”). The CIA agent Everett Ross says of Killmonger, “he’s not Wakandan, he’s one of ours,” later observing that Killmonger’s coup is what the U.S. government “trained him to do.” The part of Killmonger that makes him a supervillain is not the part of him that is African.

Ross’s inclusion is perhaps the weakest part of the storyline—the history of the CIA in Africa is a history of the suppression of democratic movements like the African National Congress, the backing of brutal dictators, and opposition to racial equality in the name of anti-communism. Shuri hints at this history when she derisively calls Ross a “colonizer.” Nevertheless, Ross’s heroism in the film, even in a fantasy, feels like a kind of propaganda.

In spite of his ambitions for global domination, Killmonger does something remarkable and perhaps unprecedented for the superhero genre—he wins the argument. When T’Challa learns that his father killed N’Jobu and abandoned N’Jadaka (Killmonger), he is horrified: The truth shatters his faith in his father and in his father’s infallibility. On the spirit plane, T’Challa declares to the manifestations of his ancestors, the previous Black Panthers, “You were wrong. All of you, you were wrong.”

Where was Wakanda? Wakanda failed. Killmonger was right. He is blinded by his pain to the evil of his own methods, but he is correct that Wakanda abandoned its responsibility to use its unmatched power to protect black people around the world. They could have stopped the endless march of souls into The Void. They did not.

After defeating Killmonger, T’Challa ends Wakanda’s isolationism and, beginning in Oakland, starts to deploy Wakandan capital toward an international social-service project focused on impoverished black neighborhoods—again echoing the legacy of the Black Panther Party. Killmonger is dead, but he has changed Wakanda forever, ended the isolationism that defined its existence for all time, and unleashed a powerful new ally to oppressed black people all over the world. Is this inadequate? Too little, too late? Maybe. But it is folly to think that Killmonger’s preferred plan of Wakandan world hegemony through massive bloodshed, using a method that has never once worked as intended, is a preferable outcome.

Lebron laments that “Killmonger ... will not appear in another movie. He does not get a second chance. His black life did not matter even in a world of flying cars and miracle medicine.” On the contrary, Killmonger’s ascension and death is the event that catalyzes Wakanda’s redemption from its greatest failure, and his death ensures that unlike Loki, Thanos, the Red Skull, or any other of Marvel’s endless stable of world-conquering despots, the pathos of his tragic end cannot be infinitely repeated as farce. His death not only matters, it is also why he matters more than all the rest of them.

Shortly after he is crowned King, during his vision on the spirit plane, Killmonger sees N’Jobu and recalls a moment from his childhood, when N’Jobu expressed the fear that should Killmonger return to Wakanda, they would not accept him, but instead see him as lost. “Maybe your home’s the ones that’s lost,” a young Erik tells N’Jobu.

And thanks to Killmonger, now they are found.
 
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