My problem with Wakanda as a fictional concept (No B.S. zone)

[im_sleep]

I like the premise of this thread, but judging by some of the critiques of Wakanda in here I honestly think opinions/discussion should be held till AFTER the movie has been seen.

 

[Tom Foolery]

:VonMiller: I gave this thread a shot by going over the material and I still have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Apollo Creed]

If Garvey went to Wakanda.

He would more or less be Erik Killmonger lol

 

[GrindtooFilthy]

My main gripe with wakanda is that it is a multi cultural society that was untouched by colonialsm

That is a false narrative, if you understand american imperialism and what it did to Africa then people would understand wakanda would be a homogeneous society not a heterogeneous society

 

[Neuromancer]

If Wakanda did anything it would kinda be depressing. I wouldn't want to read a comic where a superior African nation saved mad black people in the world while I live here.

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Yall been busy ...I fell asleep after writing this and spent all yesterday lounging


@Cynic I'll get right back to ya(last poster i read before passing out) I want to address something else first.

Not getting the exact purpose of this thread?

:VonMiller: I gave this thread a shot by going over the material and I still have no clue what you're talking about.

In a Nutshell
I want to de-contextualize wakanda from the Marvel Universe narrative and consider it under the same level of scrutiny as any such similar ideas posted on the root.
See:

• Can African Americans exist "insulated" from white America?
• Let's Talk Afro-Geopolitics III: ANC, Labour, Unemployment and the future of South Africa
  
• Black Diasporic Essentials For "Liberation"
• Boyce Watkins calls the racial wealth gap an illusion
• etc etc

Context:
(Why do you even want to do the above?)


1. Pre-existing positions
I already have preexisting political positions/ideas on African peoples globally as partially expressed in my & others threads like...

• Can African Americans exist "insulated" from white America?
• http://www.thecoli.com/posts/22397903/
• Many other post/threads/responses I've made over the years etc etc

2. Impetus
Little over a year ago after watching "comics explained"(youtube) do an overview of Ta nehisi Coates black panther run I was annoyed by Coates injecting & playing up LGBT / feminism angles.
As a result I...

• Thought about angles I'd rather see than LGBT / feminism content.
• Compared the overall authorial concept / intent of wakanda(as expressed in the fiction) to my own political ideas
• Wrote those 7 things I dislike about wakanda

3. Why bring it to the root?
After writing the "7 things I dislike" response below the youtube video I immediately thought about, why the things i dislike even exist. That line of thought lead me to...

• the writers
• the times in which they existed
• popular knowledge of those times
• etc etc

Essentially I went into what the academics refer to as...

Sociology of knowledge(for this I'd say "creativity")

The sociology of knowledge may be broadly de-fined as that branch of sociology which studies the relation between thought and society. It is concerned with the social or existential conditions of knowledge. Scholars in this field, far from being restricted to the sociological analysis of the cognitive sphere as the term would seem to imply, have concerned themselves with practically the entire range of intellectual products—philosophies and ideologies, political doctrines, and theological thought. In all these areas the sociology of knowl-edge attempts to relate the ideas it studies to the sociohistorical settings in which they are produced and received.

- Sociology of knowledge facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about Sociology of knowledge

For the level of discussion I wanted to bring to the topic, I felt(feel) the root would be better suited than most anywhere else I can think of. ...hopefully this clarifies things

I actually wrote I was going to make this thread all the way back in July after I came back from my computer(HDD) crash.​

Spoiler

Jul 1, 2017

Sup root

I've been outta commission for a bit but felt compelled to make a post on my issues with the idea of wakanda(black panther) and decided to also catch up on the happenings(interesting topics) here in the root over past couple months.
Not really worried about the other boards tho. ...substance is to be updated on, not fukkery

Sep 16, 2017

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SIDENOTE:
I'm doing a serious thread on "why I don't care for marvels wakanda"("black panther" as an isolated figure is eh, no real probs there) That said when I do serious(non fukkery) post I like to do a healthy bit of research on the matter...


Example:
Why did they start calling us "African American"?
We gotta have a discussion on Liberia bruh
King Henry: Born into slavery. Died with 76 children, 9 wives, and 600 acres of land


...If for no reason other than the burden of proof for some folks is sky high ...as it should be really. Anyway, I found these comics along the way and thought they would make for a pretty good "side fukkery" thread, enjoy

​

 

[Cynic]

My main gripe with wakanda is that it is a multi cultural society that was untouched by colonialsm

That is a false narrative, if you understand american imperialism and what it did to Africa then people would understand wakanda would be a homogeneous society not a heterogeneous society

You mean European Imperialism ? what american colonies exist in Africa beside Liberia ?

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Wakanda is a mythical kingdom and was first introduced in 1966 and the first theatrical iteration
of it's kind and yet you;d rather focus on yearning for realism and semantics.

What's even worse is conflating this with Harriet Tubman ... like seriously ?

Just enjoy the movie and the fact that black actors are getting work.

1. My assessment of wakanda wasn't made in reference to the movie and was made before the 1st trailer even aired. Now all the ancillary/supporting stuff about history and academia was written right before the movie release. Also no, i'm not focusing on "realism and semantics" so much as I'm focusing on compatibility with my political views.

I'm going to enjoy the movie itself in a couple hours



2. "conflation" Not so much "analogy" Yes. I can make a comparison between anything under consideration, provided I specify the attribute(s) used as a delineator.

• I can compare you to a box of pencils ...provided I specify weight as the attribute under consideration for comparison.
• I can compare an apple to an orange ...provided I specify price per pound as the attribute under consideration for comparison.

So the question in relation to Harriet Tubman is(not much really)...

• What attribute(s) are you using as a delineator?
• Answer: "Context"

• What is the analogy being used in reference to?
• Answer: Generic comfortable person(regardless of context) and an Enslaved comfortable person(in a specific context)

WHY?
To highlight the danger of valuing comfort to the detriment of consideration for the context comfort is attained in.
By highlighting the theoretical limits(worst case scenario) of that line of thinking via analogy.



Edit: I still don't see how the above is a reach

 

[You Win Perfect]

Wakanda is a mythical kingdom and was first introduced in 1966 and the first theatrical iteration
of it's kind and yet you;d rather focus on yearning for realism and semantics.

What's even worse is conflating this with Harriet Tubman ... like seriously ?

Just enjoy the movie and the fact that black actors are getting work.

shut up you lame this is HIGHER LEARNING not that other part of the forum where you dumb asses sword fight with your dikks.

 

[Cynic]

shut up you lame this is HIGHER LEARNING not that other part of the forum where you dumb asses sword fight with your dikks.

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Seems to me the purpose of the thread is simple, to spark a discussion.

@videogamestashbox.com I would say I don't think Wakanda would have to have any issue with Pan-Africanism. As long as they show blacks from all over not identifying with them and them not identifying with them.
In that context it could work and it would make perfect sense storywise in terms of politics intra the black race.
The thing I don't like about the movie that I see being pushed by the shea butters on social media is that wakanda or Black Panther shows an ideal, to me it doesn't.
As a concept Wakanda shows a total failure, if for instance Wakanda existed in the real world I would want nothing to do with its people, and I would hate and work to see the death of black panther along with others who either participated in or consented to the system of white supremacy that dominates the world. to me though that attitude could be a very powerful and engaging storyline, but its a area I doubt marvel wants to really venture into, without pulling the black panther wakandans are good blacks that hate them are "evil" blinded by "rage" and not realizing we are "all the same" (tm)

The purpose of that thread seems to be saying...

The political and socioeconomic ideal that Black Panther is being portrayed as in the media does not challenge White Supremacist notions or White Supremacy itself.

It's really a circle jerk..between European ideals of (what) Africa is missing and Black American ideals of what Africa could be...

Combine you have Wakanda and the Black Panther.

Correct, just chopping it up like any other topic in the root. There is no "devious intent" or anything like that.
Actually one of the reasons why I wanted to post this well before the move hit. ...I failed



1. Are you talking about a way to make wakandas pan-african stance fit within the current marvel narrative cannon on wakanda?
I agree that would work narratively to explain away wakandas relative inaction over 20+ years of comic book continuity.
That said, my problem is with the existence of the continuity(as configured) itself ...the continuity in relation to my politics that is.
(I can make a distinction between interesting story/character and poor politics ...hell I do it all the time listening to hip hop)

In this reguard I'm reminded of something Marimba Ani said about one of Alice Walkers books, dealing with women in Africa...
(Basically Alice walker was just picking African topics out the air to write on, without being within a larger political vision for African people.)

(Time stamped for convenience)​

2. Preach

the general issues I have with marvel over the idea of black panther ...or really wakanda itself.

1. How is wakanda sitting in the middle of Africa without being swarmed by migrants/refuges/...students; or at least speaking on the issue(I'm paralleling/amplifying north African European migrants & South Africa here)
2. How is it that multiple African nations came together via the O.A.U planning/engaging in military conflict to end political colonialism(economic colonialism is still an issue) but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline?
3. How is wakanda on the sidelines while Ethiopia via Haile Selassie rallied other African nations via the O.A.U. and even made the E.W.F. "Ethiopian world federation" in response to the issues of African people abroad?(even offering free land in Ethiopia to Diasporans)
4. How is wakanda on the sidelines while Cuba via Fidel Castro brings an entire freak'n army to Africa to fight against the colonialist?
5. How is Congo being raided for it's resources but wakanda ....well, wakanda is raided so they got that right!!!
6. How is freak'n Muammar Gaddafi forward thinking enough to put up $300mil to buy a $400mil African communications satilite and even push politicaly for the African Union / "United States of Africa" but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline with the tech to make whatever communications tech Africa needs?
7. How is freak'n Muammar Gaddafi forward thinking enough to conceive of the gold dinar backed monetary system to free Africa from foreign controlled monetary system but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline with the material reserves(vibranium ore) and infrastructure Africa needs to both build out and defend an indigenous monetary system?
8. etc etc etc

I'd much rather a story dealing with "wakanda" deal/add in this kind of context.

So whats wrong with wakanda not being a vision of predominate PanAfrican politics?​

​

Wakanda as depicted by marvel is not an ideal to shoot for. A society that's essentially the best of a worst case scenario for "white supremacy".
"Ok, wakanda got out from under us, but at least they aren't seriously challenging our..."

• automotive / airline industry with their flying cars
• military industrial industry with their advanced weapons
• monetary system with their monopoly on rare minerals
• political/fiscal hedgamony and leverage over African nations
• etc etc

"Hell, they even help us with international issues, and check this... not only did I not have to tell them to 'go back to' Africa ...I think those mf's just 'went back to' space..."

"...and left the whole African pie to us."

My problem with Wakanda as a fictional concept
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Ironically the above being hinted at by black panther writer Peter B. Gillis

Via a 4 issue black panther series

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Which was the story of the panther spirit leaving T'Challa because of the degree of his inaction to apartheid I.E. Ignoring the larger African political landscape which foreshadows/echos my central gripe.

3. I'm not clear what you mean here

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

The purpose of that thread seems to be saying...

The political and socioeconomic ideal that Black Panther is being portrayed as in the media does not challenge White Supremacist notions or White Supremacy itself.

It's really a circle jerk..between European ideals of (what) Africa is missing and Black American ideals of what Africa could be...

Combine you have Wakanda and the Black Panther.

WOW!

Succinct
adjective US /səkˈsɪŋkt/
(of writing or speech) clear and short; expressing what needs to be said without unnecessary words:
Keep your letter succinct and to the point.


- succinct Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

B b b b b but wakanda doesn’t pose a threat to global institution racism

I'm not clear what point your making here

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

Can an author construct a fiction about African peoples/descendants which doesn't make reference to a political/economic future devoid of white supremacy?

In the Marvel Universe, white supremacy exists but Wakanda remains but an insecure island of black autonomy

 

[BigMan]

I'm not clear what point your making here

those are the creators of Wakanda and Black panther