My problem with Wakanda as a fictional concept (No B.S. zone)

[BlackJesus]

^ You said Wakanda is apart of the same group that implemented white supremacy. Read your own words.

How can you be vindictive about fiction? You tell me. I'm not the one who wants the death of black panther.

 

[jackson35]

some of us don't believe that stan lee and jack kirby wrote the black panther. all they did was put their name on it

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

If Wakanda existed in the real world, I would want nothing to do with it.

It's really a weird oppressive society.

It actually reminds me of Saudi Arabia.

Wakanda is only worth something because they have Vibranium.

They created some sort of socio-political-religious caste system to keep the people under their control.

Wakanda is also very cowardly, they seal themselves off from the rest of the world because they think they were be controlled by everyone...yet they are the richest and most technology place on the planet and for some reason will send the children of the elite to be educated elsewhere.

1. I want to be careful how I reply here and not make the same mistakes other people make about my critique of wakanda.
Namely there is a distinction to be made between narrative analysis of a work based on "narrative logic" alone and analysis of a work based on "comparative analysis" against an outside object.
So I reply in two ways.

"Narrative logic" - I disagree
I've never seen anything about wakanda I'd deem "oppressive" most of the major issues seemed to come from wakandans being upset about being exposed to danger such as...

• Namor flooding wakanda.
• Apocalypse attacking wakanda
• Dr Doom stealing all the vibrainium ...and black panther subsequently destroying all the vibrainium and by extention wakandas wealth
• etc etc

Then folks using various forms of resulting unrest to stage/back coups.

"Comparative analysis" - It Depends(compared to what)
To say wakanda is "oppressive" I'd say compared to what.(I'm not being facetious here)

For instance back in the 60s-80s when you had the initial public run of African history coming out of black scholars in academia. There was a heavy focus on kingdoms and royalty. Around the same time you had a heavy presence of African American Communist/Socialist commentators in the US who analysed history through a (Hegel, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao) paradigm in which the idea of "royalty" was deemed archaic(via it's association with feudalism) and a precursor to the capitalist ideals/forces they were against.

​

Example:
These types view human history through the prism of material "class struggle" via a straight line of distinct transitional stages of development.

1. 
   
   
   • Primitive communism: as in co-operative tribal societies.
   • Slave society: a development of tribal to city-state; aristocracy is born.
   • Feudalism: aristocrats are the ruling class; merchants evolve into capitalists.
   • Capitalism: capitalists are the ruling class, who create and employ the proletariat.
   • -----------overthrow of capitalism by a socialist proletariat revolution-------------
   • Socialism: working class effectively owning the means of production and the means of their livelihood so that the social surplus accrues to the working class and society as a whole.
   • Communism: common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless, predicated upon a superabundance of material wealth, which is postulated to arise from advances in production technology

(Thus implying the end of the exploitation of labour.)

​

You see these types today in places like...

• Glen ford - (black agenda report)
• Yvette Carnell - (breaking brown)
• Antonio moore - (tonetalks)
• Dr. Cornel West
• Jared A. Ball - (imixwhatIlike)
  
• etc etc

I.E.If your coming from a socialist paradigm I'd say.... "I don't agree but I see why you say it's oppressive"




My thoughts on socialist comparative analysis:
That said, I don't agree on a fundamental level because I reject Marx-Engels socialist framework for the analysis of African societies Real or fictional.
As I've mentioned before...

animism is kinda vague a term. That's like saying "spirituality is man's original religion..."

It's like when Europeans call people "chiefs". A hogon's relation to the community in Dogon country maybe distinct from the Asantehene to the Ashanti or Eze in igboland. Either way Europeans would call them all "chiefs" ruling a "chiefdom" This is also a reason I roll my eyes at people using the term "King" & "Queen" all the time. The relationship of a European king to the rest of the community especially as concerns land rights/tenure are distinct in nature.

Example: The hogon doesn't own all the dogons land with the dogon people working the soil as peons.

This is also a problem I have with socialist/communist because they bring their ideas to an African context assuming all "African chiefs" have the same relationship with their people as European kings and try to map their ideology 1 to 1 on Africa. Animism is yet another generic term that doesn't really fit anything in specific.




Hell I'd say something generic like "cattle cults", "ancestor cults", or "mother cult" before saying anything like "animism". Even though cattle domestication came way too late to assume it was first. I think in a situation like this the better question would be...

Better question: What evidence do we have of the black mans original spiritual system(s)?

My position is to view African societies on their on terms through an analytical framework composed of ideals(which I'm not going to go deep into) found throughout Africa dealing with society.
Ideals from/such as...

• Ubuntu
• Maat
• Dr. Fu-Kiau Bunseki - (books on congo based systems)
• Marimba ani - (Utilization of African systems & lectures on women)
• Mwalimu K. Bomani and Yaa Mawusi Baruti - (lectures/books on men/women)
• Poro and Sande societies - (acculturation of children)
• West African land tenure norms / business organization
• 
  
  
• Basic African historical analysis
• etc. etc. etc.

​

Basically there is a shyt load of "cultural ingredients" I pull from to cook my ideological soup. The above being simply a small sample of base ingredients ....or sources(books/lectures) I pull ingredients from. From those ingredients I cook an ideology by which to compare real/proposed societal practices. This is as opposed to what black socialist do which is....

1. Take Marx-Engels social/economic analysis of a handful(England, France, etc.) of western European societies around the European industrial revolution,
2. Abstract that analysis of 2 or 3 European societies going through the industrial revolution,
3. Then apply that abstraction carte blanche to any and all societies... most importantly in this case African societies.

As stated before I disagree with that process. If we are to utilize an abstraction based on analysis of historical social/economic phenomena, then it should be an abstraction of African societal processes not an abstraction based on analysis of English/French historical social/economic phenomena ....that are then applied to an Africa with its own distinct history and social/economic phenomena that doesn't even line up with western Europe.(This is my same prob with feminism btw)

​

2. Preach!!!

the general issues I have with marvel over the idea of black panther ...or really wakanda itself.

1. How is wakanda sitting in the middle of Africa without being swarmed by migrants/refuges/...students; or at least speaking on the issue(I'm paralleling/amplifying north African European migrants & South Africa here)
2. How is it that multiple African nations came together via the O.A.U planning/engaging in military conflict to end political colonialism(economic colonialism is still an issue) but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline?
3. How is wakanda on the sidelines while Ethiopia via Haile Selassie rallied other African nations via the O.A.U. and even made the E.W.F. "Ethiopian world federation" in response to the issues of African people abroad?(even offering free land in Ethiopia to Diasporans)
4. How is wakanda on the sidelines while Cuba via Fidel Castro brings an entire freak'n army to Africa to fight against the colonialist?
5. How is Congo being raided for it's resources but wakanda ....well, wakanda is raided so they got that right!!!
6. How is freak'n Muammar Gaddafi forward thinking enough to put up $300mil to buy a $400mil African communications satilite and even push politicaly for the African Union / "United States of Africa" but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline with the tech to make whatever communications tech Africa needs?
7. How is freak'n Muammar Gaddafi forward thinking enough to conceive of the gold dinar backed monetary system to free Africa from foreign controlled monetary system but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline with the material reserves(vibranium ore) and infrastructure Africa needs to both build out and defend an indigenous monetary system?
8. etc etc etc

I'd much rather a story dealing with "wakanda" deal/add in this kind of context.

So whats wrong with wakanda not being a vision of predominate PanAfrican politics?​

​

Wakanda as depicted by marvel is not an ideal to shoot for. A society that's essentially the best of a worst case scenario for "white supremacy".
"Ok, wakanda got out from under us, but at least they aren't seriously challenging our..."

• automotive / airline industry with their flying cars
• military industrial industry with their advanced weapons
• monetary system with their monopoly on rare minerals
• political/fiscal hedgamony and leverage over African nations
• etc etc

"Hell, they even help us with international issues, and check this... not only did I not have to tell them to 'go back to' Africa ...I think those mf's just 'went back to' space..."

"...and left the whole African pie to us."

My problem with Wakanda as a fictional concept
........
.......
......​

Ironically the above being hinted at by black panther writer Peter B. Gillis

Via a 4 issue black panther series

​

Which was the story of the panther spirit leaving T'Challa because of the degree of his inaction to apartheid I.E. Ignoring the larger African political landscape which foreshadows/echos my central gripe.

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Uh... Yea its a movie. And so its obviously not challenging WS. The anti-Black Panther crowd always claiming that the people who are hyped about this film are making ridiculous statements meanwhile they are too just as much. And nothing about Wakanda is oppressive. I don't get where that came from. Wakanda is more like Great Zimbabwe, Mali Empire or Ancient Kush.

1. I'd like to reiterate my critique was made a year before the movie ever hit(the movie trailer hadn't even hit) and was prompted by TA-NEHISI COATES rendition of black panther not the movie. Any issues with the movie are simply extensions of pre-existing problems I already had/expressed.

2. Likewise I don't see anything oppressive about the society either, be it from a narrative stand point or from the standpoint of a comparison to my personal political ideas.

I was thinking along the lines(in modern terms) of Morocco and Swaziland as the closest correlates ....tho obviously not exact. wakanda has fewer if any correlates to western political systems while Morocco and Swaziland has a good couple overlapings. Also wakanda has a system in place where other ethnic groups can transition into power while Morocco and Swaziland are basically static to bloodlines(Unless someone marries into the royal family that is).


EDIT:
While I don't know if it's the case If the person is looking at wakanda from a communist lens.....

1. Primitive communism: as in co-operative tribal societies.
2. Slave society: a development of tribal to city-state; aristocracy is born.
3. Feudalism: aristocrats are the ruling class; merchants evolve into capitalists.
4. Capitalism: capitalists are the ruling class, who create and employ the proletariat.
5. -----------overthrow of capitalism by a socialist proletariat revolution-------------
6. Socialism: working class effectively owning the means of production and the means of their livelihood so that the social surplus accrues to the working class and society as a whole.
7. Communism: common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless, predicated upon a superabundance of material wealth, which is postulated to arise from advances in production technology

(Thus implying the end of the exploitation of labour.)​

Then the mere fact that wakanda is a "kingdom" will be seen as a regressive problem. While I don't hold such views(I don't subscribe to [Hegel, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao] thought) I'm aware there are people in the community who do.

Examples:

• Glen ford - (black agenda report)
• Yvette Carnell - (breaking brown)
• Antonio moore - (tonetalks)
• Dr. Cornel West
• Jared A. Ball - (imixwhatIlike) <--though he seems to lean heavy towards panafricanism also.
  
• etc etc

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Wakanda is not a vision of Afrofuturism

Personally I don't use care for the term ....the cac can keep it and his analysis

Mark Dery​

The uncomfortable origins of ‘Afrofuturism’
.......
What’s interesting about the article, one of Dery’s best known works and the reason why his name is so omnipresent in discussions of Afrofuturism – a phenomenon which he both names and claims to have discovered – is precisely how little work he does. A great deal of intellectual labour is visible in the essay, but almost all of it is undertaken by Delany, Tate and Rose, who not only tolerate Dery’s ill-informed and – let’s be honest – occasionally racist questions, but offer smart and insightful accounts of the areas in which they are, after all, experts.

There’s so much in here that I want to reflect on, to digest, and to be formed by intellectually. But I can’t cite this work on the part of Delany, Tate and Rose without citing Dery himself. What’s worst about ‘Black to the Future’ is that Dery has found a way to identify an area of black culture, declare it unknown territory, and, by appropriating the labour of black creators of both culture and critical reflection on that culture, has ensured that this terrain has come to bear the name that he chose for it.

- The uncomfortable origins of ‘Afrofuturism’

Wakanda would be much more powerful and secure if it led the way to develop the African continent/Afrodiasporans

Imagine if Wakanda set up universities in Jamaica or opened up the 1 bill on strong African market to its goods via an exclusive economic zone

Preaching to the choir bruh bruh

the general issues I have with marvel over the idea of black panther ...or really wakanda itself.

1. How is wakanda sitting in the middle of Africa without being swarmed by migrants/refuges/...students; or at least speaking on the issue(I'm paralleling/amplifying north African European migrants & South Africa here)
2. How is it that multiple African nations came together via the O.A.U planning/engaging in military conflict to end political colonialism(economic colonialism is still an issue) but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline?
3. How is wakanda on the sidelines while Ethiopia via Haile Selassie rallied other African nations via the O.A.U. and even made the E.W.F. "Ethiopian world federation" in response to the issues of African people abroad?(even offering free land in Ethiopia to Diasporans)
4. How is wakanda on the sidelines while Cuba via Fidel Castro brings an entire freak'n army to Africa to fight against the colonialist?
5. How is Congo being raided for it's resources but wakanda ....well, wakanda is raided so they got that right!!!
6. How is freak'n Muammar Gaddafi forward thinking enough to put up $300mil to buy a $400mil African communications satilite and even push politicaly for the African Union / "United States of Africa" but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline with the tech to make whatever communications tech Africa needs?
7. How is freak'n Muammar Gaddafi forward thinking enough to conceive of the gold dinar backed monetary system to free Africa from foreign controlled monetary system but wakanda is twiddling thumbs on the sideline with the material reserves(vibranium ore) and infrastructure Africa needs to both build out and defend an indigenous monetary system?
8. etc etc etc

I'd much rather a story dealing with "wakanda" deal/add in this kind of context.

I think it’s serious. What we consume in media really affects our thinking

Exactly

Assumed Questions/Positions:​

Assumed Position 1 - "Chill bruh It's just entertainment"
People often think "oh it's just entertainment" ...which is to me like saying "oh it's just desert".
Your digestive system(biological or physiological) doesn't know the difference. All it recognizes is sustenance it may be able to use as a resource now or later.

The designation of something as "just" entertainment(or desert) is more or less a memory mnemonics(like tying a ribbon around you finger to remember something) so that you know how much to ingest in relation to other things; or how to categorize/offset what was ingested.

Put another way people need to know what they are taking in(and where it came from) even if it's "just entertainment" because those ideas then form the bases for further decisions.

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

I like the premise of this thread, but judging by some of the critiques of Wakanda in here I honestly think opinions/discussion should be held till AFTER the movie has been seen.

I'm not talking about the movie I'm talking about 20+ years of comic cannon.
I'll reserve my thoughts on the movie when I go see it Sunday.

In a Nutshell
I want to de-contextualize wakanda from the Marvel Universe narrative and consider it under the same level of scrutiny as any such similar ideas posted on the root.
See:

• Can African Americans exist "insulated" from white America?
• Let's Talk Afro-Geopolitics III: ANC, Labour, Unemployment and the future of South Africa
  
• Black Diasporic Essentials For "Liberation"
• Boyce Watkins calls the racial wealth gap an illusion
• etc etc

Context:
(Why do you even want to do the above?)


1. Pre-existing positions
I already have preexisting political positions/ideas on African peoples globally as partially expressed in my & others threads like...

• Can African Americans exist "insulated" from white America?
• http://www.thecoli.com/posts/22397903/
• Many other post/threads/responses I've made over the years etc etc

2. Impetus
Little over a year ago after watching "comics explained"(youtube) do an overview of Ta nehisi Coates black panther run I was annoyed by Coates injecting & playing up LGBT / feminism angles.
As a result I...

• Thought about angles I'd rather see than LGBT / feminism content.
• Compared the overall authorial concept / intent of wakanda(as expressed in the fiction) to my own political ideas
• Wrote those 7 things I dislike about wakanda

3. Why bring it to the root?
After writing the "7 things I dislike" response below the youtube video I immediately thought about, why the things i dislike even exist. That line of thought lead me to...

• the writers
• the times in which they existed
• popular knowledge of those times
• etc etc

Essentially I went into what the academics refer to as...

Sociology of knowledge(for this I'd say "creativity")

The sociology of knowledge may be broadly de-fined as that branch of sociology which studies the relation between thought and society. It is concerned with the social or existential conditions of knowledge. Scholars in this field, far from being restricted to the sociological analysis of the cognitive sphere as the term would seem to imply, have concerned themselves with practically the entire range of intellectual products—philosophies and ideologies, political doctrines, and theological thought. In all these areas the sociology of knowl-edge attempts to relate the ideas it studies to the sociohistorical settings in which they are produced and received.

- Sociology of knowledge facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about Sociology of knowledge

For the level of discussion I wanted to bring to the topic, I felt(feel) the root would be better suited than most anywhere else I can think of. ...hopefully this clarifies things

I actually wrote I was going to make this thread all the way back in July after I came back from my computer(HDD) crash.​

Spoiler

Jul 1, 2017

Sup root

I've been outta commission for a bit but felt compelled to make a post on my issues with the idea of wakanda(black panther) and decided to also catch up on the happenings(interesting topics) here in the root over past couple months.
Not really worried about the other boards tho. ...substance is to be updated on, not fukkery

Sep 16, 2017

................
.............
..........
.....​

SIDENOTE:
I'm doing a serious thread on "why I don't care for marvels wakanda"("black panther" as an isolated figure is eh, no real probs there) That said when I do serious(non fukkery) post I like to do a healthy bit of research on the matter...


Example:
Why did they start calling us "African American"?
We gotta have a discussion on Liberia bruh
King Henry: Born into slavery. Died with 76 children, 9 wives, and 600 acres of land


...If for no reason other than the burden of proof for some folks is sky high ...as it should be really. Anyway, I found these comics along the way and thought they would make for a pretty good "side fukkery" thread, enjoy

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Interesting

If Wakanda did anything it would kinda be depressing. I wouldn't want to read a comic where a superior African nation saved mad black people in the world while I live here.

In what way would that given narrative come across as depressing to you(I have a hard time grasping that idea)
I'd put forth that African speculative fiction "should ideally" toss those kinda aspirational ideas around at least as much as rap videos toss around "cars, chains, & women" materialism

 

[Neuromancer]

Interesting


In what way would that given narrative come across as depressing to you(I have a hard time grasping that idea)
I'd put forth that African speculative fiction "should ideally" toss those kinda aspirational ideas around at least as much as rap videos toss around "cars, chains, & women" materialism

Cause I would want to live there more than here. I work in the black speculative fiction market enough of us don't read it to create the impact hip-hop did on our psyche.

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Cause I would want to live there more than here. I work in the black speculative fiction market enough of us don't read it to create the impact hip-hop did on our psyche.

Hmmmm...

Follow up question:
Can you conceive of a society that you would prefer to live in other than the one you currently occupy?
In terms of....

• laws
• family organization
• economy
• criminal justice
• spirituality
• army
• etc etc

To be clear I'm not referring to actually writing it ...I mean can you day dream of an ideal/preferable scenario in regards to the above?

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Can an author construct a fiction about African peoples/descendants which doesn't make reference to a political/economic future devoid of white supremacy?

In the Marvel Universe, white supremacy exists but Wakanda remains but an insecure island of black autonomy

1. I'm racking my brain on this one bruh(maybe it's just a typo)
Damn near all African fiction don't make reference to a future devoid of white supremacy ...hell, thats the problem

• Academia theorizes the ideal
• Fiction renders that ideal

We have the academics to construct the necessary ideals but our fiction creators aren't following suit at a decent rate...except for black feminist laced fiction(that BS permeates society)
I'm holding out hope for something great from Aaron Mcgruderon / will packer and their amazon project black america.

EXAMPLE:
Academics theorize reparations for African Americans but the average non academic is at a loss for what that entails unless they are given a clear picture of what that looks like via our fiction writers.








2. Preach !!!
Insult to injury the narrative logic of wakanda puts them in a position to strengthen that insecurity quite easily by securing the continent. But you don't see that cause the cacs who conceived of wakanda weren't grounded in the panAfrican politics & ideals that were prevalent at that time. So their fiction won't reflect those politics & ideals which is the foundational problem to this whole messy fiction called wakanda...​

So whats wrong with wakanda not being a vision of predominate PanAfrican politics?​

​

Wakanda as depicted by marvel is not an ideal to shoot for. A society that's essentially the best of a worst case scenario for "white supremacy".
"Ok, wakanda got out from under us, but at least they aren't seriously challenging our..."

• automotive / airline industry with their flying cars
• military industrial industry with their advanced weapons
• monetary system with their monopoly on rare minerals
• political/fiscal hedgamony and leverage over African nations
• etc etc

"Hell, they even help us with international issues, and check this... not only did I not have to tell them to 'go back to' Africa ...I think those mf's just 'went back to' space..."

"...and left the whole African pie to us."

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

1) The story construct is what I'm referring to.
2) lol
3) I think the gold mine that marvel has in creating legitimate tension between two seperate groups of blacks, with very serious disagreements than can become hot conflicts quickly on a large scale without even really being broken down into the usual good vs bad guy classifications is there for marvel, with their black characters in relation to Wakanda, but they don't have the writers to pull it off anymore. They will most likely default to radicalizing one participant to the point of absurdity and then hitting you with the cliche we are all one race speech from the good guy.

Example please .....and to what end(I.E. why create the above narrative in the first place)?
Expound on that thought

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

You could but it would be intellectually dishonest.

I think that's the problem with Black Panther....

There is a panel of Black Panther talking about the real Black Panthers and him saying that he doesn't care about them because he is a king...




So you have an American comic, named after a socialist Black American political movement, created by White American Jews, and the main character is a trillionaire African King that gives no fukks about the actual Black Panther Party or the conditions of Black Americans in America...cause he's rich as fukk and a king.

And I ain't saying Africans have to care about the plight of Black Americans cause I ain't some Pan-Africanist like that...

But I am saying...this American comic book character is a American White supremacist fantasy.

Black people misunderstanding the goals of the average openly White Supremacists and White Nationalists...

They simply don't want you in their space and underneath their government taking resources from them.

They want you to go away to your own country.

They don't want you fukking up their bloodline.

Most ardent White Nationalists are isolationists and segregations...which is why the NOI and Marcus Garvey had no problem working with them and meeting them...

Colonization is an act of White Supremacist Neo-Liberalism where Westerners believe that their Western European governance and philosophy can enlighten the darker races and build them up.

Colonization in the mind of Western neo-liberals of their time...wasn't to hurt the indigenous population...it was to better them. They were "backwards". They had tribes and shyt still. White people didn't have tribes anymore, they had citizens and multiculturalism. White people didn't have kings anymore. White people had republics. The indigenous people had multiple gods, White man had one.

Neo-liberals believe in the ideal of progress, all human endeavors get better with time...it's just that is a Western idea. For some groups, White people need to intervene and speed up the process.

White Supremacists and even White Neo-liberals would love a country like Wakanda actually existing...

Wakanda wouldn't be an enemy of any Western government. They would be the allies of the Western governments, used to keep track of hostile African nations.

Wakanda solves about 3 problems from White Supremacists and White Nationalists...

1. White people don't need to "civilize" them.
2. White people don't need to worry about them immigrating to their country.
3. White people finally have an African nation that is similar on scale to their own and that they can fellowship with as equals.

I certainly have my serious issues with the above(political, factual, & interpretive) ......but I'm gone have to mull over this one before I say anything more in response

 

[David_TheMan]

Example please .....and to what end(I.E. why create the above narrative in the first place)?
Expound on that thought

You have wakandans, you have a gold mine of black american characters like Black Goliath, Blue Marvel, Blade, Falcon, Luke Cage and Rhoades.
What if any of these black american heroes, especially someone like Blade, started to gather up black hereos to make a black hero organization, labeled the Black Cabinet to handle black american affairs and it conflicts with the goals of wakandans and BP. You then have a very real organic situation that can occur, that can lead to some very good storylines because you have black americans of different economic strata, education levels, ages, american subregions, and etc vs the white idealized african elite.

To what end would the story go, it would depend on the author, I have my own idea where to take that story but I wouldn't hold anyone to that, just there is furtile ground to really present a black american storyline and really show how disconnected wakandans are to us and other groups of blacks.

 

[TransJenner]

Man this is how you know OP has Austism
Just watch the damn movie , no need to break it down like it’s real got damn

 

[videogamestashbox.com]

Damn, I need to come back to this thread.