Melle Mel defends Fat Joe while addressing who started Hip-Hop: Black Americans or Puerto Ricans, and says, "Hip-hop culture is Bronx culture."

K.O.N.Y

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My dude. It's the same Tariq Nasheed worshippers who jump in every thread and will fight and argue with anyone who doesn't co sign Tariq Nasheeds narrative of Hip Hop. They do it every thread. They will lie and revisit history to defend Tariq Nasheeds bullshyt separation narrative of Hip Hop. Its the same ones every time, dapping each other up, even if they are saying bullshyt. This is one example as to why The Coli fell off and Reddit is the new king. Dudes really in here going against Melly Mel for Tariq Nasheeds narrative. :snoop:

My dude....You can talk logic to them but they will never ever agree with you because it doesn't align with Tariqs version of things. You are just gonna go in circles with them. You will never get any middle ground with them.
how is it a "tariq nasheed" narrative when the pioneers themselves are saying otherwise

The whole premise doesnt even make sense conceptually

you have a bunch of fbas coming out of the second great migration who are not even used to latinos or even other diasporic cultures on the level we are now. And a bunch of straight off the boat puerto ricans, a good portion of whom who havent been americanized/nuyoricanized. Both are in the bronx, but some type of UNION is not immediately obvious under the circumstances. That had to develop like i said.
 

Plankton

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how is it a "tariq nasheed" narrative

Because 70's Hip Hop includes more then what ethnicity started Hip Hop. It's about where the party's were, what break beats were used, sound systems, BBoying. If all you can do is be stuck on what ethnicity started Hip Hop then it's a Tariq Nasheed narrative. When BDP did the legendary song "South Bronx" speaking on the 70's it was about "location" not ethnicity. Tariq Nasheed worshippers (yourself included) stay stuck on "ethnicity in the origin" and absolutely nothing else in the 70's. FACTS.
 

K.O.N.Y

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Because 70's Hip Hop includes more then what ethnicity started Hip Hop. It's about where the party's were, what break beats were used, sound systems, BBoying. If all you can do is be stuck on what ethnicity started Hip Hop then it's a Tariq Nasheed narrative. When BDP did the legendary song "South Bronx" speaking on the 70's it was about "location" not ethnicity. Tariq Nasheed worshippers (yourself included) stay stuck on "ethnicity in the origin" and absolutely nothing else in the 70's. FACTS.
Ethnicity wasnt introduced into non fbas started doing it fool.

And it wasnt just ethnicity, they were falsely attributing influence to other islands and cultures
 

Plankton

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Ethnicity wasnt introduced into non fbas started doing it fool.

And it wasnt just ethnicity, they were falsely attributing influence to other islands and cultures


Bottom line, if all you can focus on is ethnicity when it comes to 70's Hip Hop and not BBoying, scratching, break beats, cross fading, sound systems and block partys then you are stuck on the Tariq Nasheed narrative. 70's Hip Hop includes Herc and Disco Donny and Ruby D so being stuck on ethnicity tells me you don't really give a damn about 70's Hip Hop like that and that biased narrative can GTFO out of the conversation.


My last response to you because I already know you will just go in circles and ignore me speaking truth so you can have the final word. But do me a favor, if I'm talking to someone else, do not quote me with your biased remarks. I wasn't even talking to you yet you quoted me to say some nonsensical bullshyt. Again, do not quote me if I'm talking to someone else.
 

K.O.N.Y

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Bottom line, if all you can focus on is ethnicity when it comes to 70's Hip Hop and not BBoying, scratching, break beats, cross fading, sound systems and block partys then you are stuck on the Tariq Nasheed narrative. 70's Hip Hop includes Herc and Disco Donny and Ruby D so being stuck on ethnicity tells me you don't really give a damn about 70's Hip Hop like that and that biased narrative can GTFO out of the conversation.


My last response to you because I already know you will just go in circles and ignore me speaking truth so you can have the final word. But do me a favor, if I'm talking to someone else, do not quote me with your biased remarks. I wasn't even talking to you yet you quoted me to say some nonsensical bullshyt. Again, do not quote me if I'm talking to someone else.
Bro the hip hop started in jamaica narrative has been lingering around for decades. Its not a 'tariq nasheed" narrative. Its as simple as that
 

Piff Perkins

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I have a problem with people who called it "jungle music" back in the day trying to now say they helped create it. It's just like when cacs called rock music "race music" then when it became popular they claimed ownership.
This is so lazy. Are you familiar with New York and what it looked like in the 70s/80s? The idea that Ricans and island black people weren't involved is insane. Stop letting agitators lie to you.

Hip hop is a black (American) art form. That doesn’t change the reality that other types of people were involved on the ground floor in fukking NYC lmao. This is typical of most American art forms. You look at jazz and the influence (white) classical music had on it, or the influence many white vaudeville artists had on it. Yet it is generally viewed as a black American art form because it’s a big gumbo pot of influences but we stirred the pot. Until people can talk about rap in an intelligent, academic way we will keep having these dumb ahistorical debates.
 

K.O.N.Y

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This is so lazy. Are you familiar with New York and what it looked like in the 70s/80s? The idea that Ricans and island black people weren't involved is insane. Stop letting agitators lie to you.

Hip hop is a black (American) art form. That doesn’t change the reality that other types of people were involved on the ground floor in fukking NYC lmao. This is typical of most American art forms. You look at jazz and the influence (white) classical music had on it, or the influence many white vaudeville artists had on it. Yet it is generally viewed as a black American art form because it’s a big gumbo pot of influences but we stirred the pot. Until people can talk about rap in an intelligent, academic way we will keep having these dumb ahistorical debates.
jazz went out of its way to NOT be like classical music :beli:
 

The Dust King

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This is so lazy. Are you familiar with New York and what it looked like in the 70s/80s? The idea that Ricans and island black people weren't involved is insane. Stop letting agitators lie to you.

Hip hop is a black (American) art form. That doesn’t change the reality that other types of people were involved on the ground floor in fukking NYC lmao. This is typical of most American art forms. You look at jazz and the influence (white) classical music had on it, or the influence many white vaudeville artists had on it. Yet it is generally viewed as a black American art form because it’s a big gumbo pot of influences but we stirred the pot. Until people can talk about rap in an intelligent, academic way we will keep having these dumb ahistorical debates.
and the most important part of all

the caribbean is BLACK lol
 

Piff Perkins

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jazz went out of its way to NOT be like classical music :beli:
Many of the earliest jazz standards were classical European music. Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane were heavily influenced by classical music and music theory. Kind Of Blue is modal chords and changed how music in this country while being heavily influenced by classical theory.

There’s a clear point here. While brain dead internet people fight over this stuff in the present, black artists were taking inspiration from everything in the past. Whether it was classical music or Jamaican music or whatever…black Americans have always melded shyt together to create new shyt.
 

Budda

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Many of the earliest jazz standards were classical European music. Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane were heavily influenced by classical music and music theory. Kind Of Blue is modal chords and changed how music in this country while being heavily influenced by classical theory.

There’s a clear point here. While brain dead internet people fight over this stuff in the present, black artists were taking inspiration from everything in the past. Whether it was classical music or Jamaican music or whatever…black Americans have always melded shyt together to create new shyt.

What Puerto Rican genre was melded together to create Hip Hop?
 

CHICAGO

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NYC is not like other places, Blacks and Latins are literally neighbors here, we all grew up together doing and seeing the same things. Now double or triple that when you're speaking about the Bronx, lol, it's even more of that. I don't think PR's had anything to do with introducing Hip Hop, Rap specifically, to the world, but they were there enjoying it and rocking out from Day 1 tho...because we were all right there together. I wouldn't be surprised if more NYC legends, especially Bronx legends, cosigned what Joe said.

THEY WEREN'T THOUGH
BECAUSE YOUR NYC ISNT
THE NYC OF THE LATE 60S/EARLY 70S.

RICANS WASNT fukkING WITH
YOU nikkaS DURING THAT TIME PERIOD
AND THE PIONEERS VOUCH FOR THIS
:devil:
:evil:
 

Ish Gibor

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Many of the earliest jazz standards were classical European music. Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane were heavily influenced by classical music and music theory. Kind Of Blue is modal chords and changed how music in this country while being heavily influenced by classical theory.

There’s a clear point here. While brain dead internet people fight over this stuff in the present, black artists were taking inspiration from everything in the past. Whether it was classical music or Jamaican music or whatever…black Americans have always melded shyt together to create new shyt.

"Jazz harmony at its structural and aesthetic level is based predominantly on African matrices,..."
https://www.jstor.org/stable/30039290
(Gerhard Kubik, The African Matrix in Jazz Harmonic Practices)
Black Music Research Journal
Vol. 25, No. 1/2 (Spring - Fall, 2005), pp. 167-222 (56 pages)
Published By: Center for Black Music Research


"I’ve played drums in an all-nonwhite rock band called Sunata for seven years (2013-2020, before the pandemic) and djembe for about five years. Music, especially Black and African-American music, runs in my family and culture. My uncle, a freelance musician who toured throughout the 1970s, told me to study blues and jazz music because, as he put it, blues and jazz are the mother and the father, while R&B and rock-and-roll are the son and the daughter. Without blues and jazz music, American popular music wouldn’t exist. Blues and jazz come from the same parent”

[…]

"Blues is considered an “American” genre of music but it’s still a historical and cultural continuation of African folk music adapted to a new environment. Therefore, African-American blues is both a foundation of American popular music and, stylistically, part of the larger African cultural family because it is fundamentally an African style of music."

[...]

That African scale system is the fundamental root of blues music.

Nketia also explains the various melodies, rhythms, scale patterns, and notations of indigenous African music. In the chapter on vocal melodies in The Music of Africa, Nketia shows the pentatonic system, which includes a flatted fifth, in an African vocal melody: C-D-E-G-B♭ [pg. 150]. Nketia explains:

…instead of a major sixth, a minor seventh is used. That is, instead of C-D-E-G-A, we have C-D-E-G-B… this gives a distinctive character to the music. An important feature of melodic organization associated with pentatonic structures is that of transposition, whereby the melody is shifted from one position of a trichord to another. The shift may be a whole step, or as much as two or three steps, up or down. That is, there could be a shift from a G-A-B or E-G-A-B sequence to an F-G-A or D-F-G-A sequence within the same song, or from A-G-F to D’-C-Bin the same song” [pg. 150]".

"The lowered pitches of the blues scale are also closely related to the African quarter tone scale. The flatted 3rd and 7th are uncommon in the European tradition and add an element that is completely unique to the music. Other performance practices, like playing the guitar with a knife blade or playing the banjo with a bottleneck would likely produce sounds similar to those produced from African instruments."


The rabbit hole goes deeper.

Black musicians came across the Atlantic from the United States, many from Harlem, which was already a “jazz capital.” They went to France and found their talents in high demand. Soon, black-owned nightclubs were springing up in Paris, especially in Montmartre. Among the many African Americans who found a far more receptive audience in France was Josephine Baker.”
https://thescarlet.org/3159/category_news/the-history-of-nightlife-paris/

"Conversely, many white Americans viewed returning black soldiers as a threat because of their military service and exposure to new ideas about race and equality, especially in France."
http://harlemrenaissance.com/history/

"The Harlem Renaissance was the development of the Harlem neighborhood in New York City as a Black cultural mecca in the early 20th Century and the subsequent social and artistic explosion that resulted. Lasting roughly from the 1910s through the mid-1930s, the period is considered a golden age in African American culture, manifesting in literature, music, stage performance and art."
Harlem Renaissance - Definition, Artists & How It Started | HISTORY































 
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Ish Gibor

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NYC is not like other places, Blacks and Latins are literally neighbors here, we all grew up together doing and seeing the same things. Now double or triple that when you're speaking about the Bronx, lol, it's even more of that. I don't think PR's had anything to do with introducing Hip Hop, Rap specifically, to the world, but they were there enjoying it and rocking out from Day 1 tho...because we were all right there together. I wouldn't be surprised if more NYC legends, especially Bronx legends, cosigned what Joe said.
If what you say is true, how come we see Black American culture and traditions so prevalent in Hip Hop culture? Where are all these Hispanic influences? Why aren’t Spanish words in the root of this culture? Why is it only AAVE?
 
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