Lone Survivor Discussion... Spoilers
- Thread starter Saysumthinfunnymike
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TheDarceKnight
Veteran
all them sensitive items they jacked too
did we ever recover their bodies?
edit: why this shyt in spoilers? theres no spoiler tags
@bk fyi
Their bodies were recovered. I guess they left 'em for the birds? I believe they found the bodies the next day or so. Axeelson (Ben Foster) they found a week or so later, because he had wandered off with his sidearm and wasn't where Marcus said he expected to be. But yeah, it looks like they got laptops and all kinds of shyt. You served, right? What's the procedure when stuff like that gets captured?
During SERE don't they just train people to hold out for a few days, because after 3-4 days your info becomes much less useful to the enemy?
yeah I served, but I can't speak on how the SEALS do things. All that intel lost sucks, but when they lost so many dudes also it was probably low on their priority list.
I would guess
decided to do some research last night...
For those of you interested in the authenticity of the story:
http://onviolence.com/?e=762
Its a long read, but basically Lutrell's book is riddled with inaccuracies. It seem's Berg did some research and fixed up some of the more egregious stuff.
highlights
For those of you interested in the authenticity of the story:
http://onviolence.com/?e=762
Its a long read, but basically Lutrell's book is riddled with inaccuracies. It seem's Berg did some research and fixed up some of the more egregious stuff.
highlights
Since Lone Survivor (film) gets released in theaters next week, Michael C and I have been doing a lot of writing on it over the past few days. After a certain point, we decided that the best thing to do would be to write one, giant article listing off the differences between the memoir, the film and the actual history of Operation Red Wings.
If anyone finds a mistake or difference we missed, please let us know. Also, if you find a mistake in this article (and you can write a polite/respectful email), please let us know.
Some notes first:
- We’ll begin with the differences between the book and movie. Then, since we’ve covered some of this material before, we’ll list the mistakes in the book and movie versus reality (with lots of links). At the end, we’ll provide a references section to the major works on Operation Red Wings. We hope this can be a resource and easy link for anyone on the internet to learn about Lone Survivor.
- This is not a full and complete list, but it is our best attempt to make one. We also do not have a screener of Lone Survivor (film), so we may change or add to the list after we see the film again.
- Discrepancies between the memoir and film could have one of two explanations: Peter Berg changed the film to make it more exciting or Luttrell’s memoir is even more inaccurate than we thought.
- Page numbers come from the paperback version of Lone Survivor. Page numbers for the screenplay come from the version hosted online by Universal Pictures.
- We did make some judgement calls, deciding what’s important versus what isn’t. Small dialogue changes are unimportant to us; changing events are. For example, in the memoir, an Afghan doctor pulls the shrapnel from Luttrell’s leg; in the film, Marcus does it himself. For critics who think the film turned soldiers into super heroes, this change would be exhibit A.
Without further ado, the differences between Lone Survivor (film), Lone Survivor (memoir) and reality:
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
If anyone finds a mistake or difference we missed, please let us know. Also, if you find a mistake in this article (and you can write a polite/respectful email), please let us know.
Some notes first:
- We’ll begin with the differences between the book and movie. Then, since we’ve covered some of this material before, we’ll list the mistakes in the book and movie versus reality (with lots of links). At the end, we’ll provide a references section to the major works on Operation Red Wings. We hope this can be a resource and easy link for anyone on the internet to learn about Lone Survivor.
- This is not a full and complete list, but it is our best attempt to make one. We also do not have a screener of Lone Survivor (film), so we may change or add to the list after we see the film again.
- Discrepancies between the memoir and film could have one of two explanations: Peter Berg changed the film to make it more exciting or Luttrell’s memoir is even more inaccurate than we thought.
- Page numbers come from the paperback version of Lone Survivor. Page numbers for the screenplay come from the version hosted online by Universal Pictures.
- We did make some judgement calls, deciding what’s important versus what isn’t. Small dialogue changes are unimportant to us; changing events are. For example, in the memoir, an Afghan doctor pulls the shrapnel from Luttrell’s leg; in the film, Marcus does it himself. For critics who think the film turned soldiers into super heroes, this change would be exhibit A.
Without further ado, the differences between Lone Survivor (film), Lone Survivor (memoir) and reality:
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Marcus Luttrell Nearly Dies in the Opening and Closing of the Film
Lone Survivor (film) opens with voice over as a dying Marcus Luttrell is airlifted back to a military base. As the plane lands, Marcus Luttrell literally dies:
“Surgical pack working franticly [sic] to save Luttrell.
“Tight on HEART MONITOR: FLATLINE…
“Pushing in on the flatline. Alarm screaming. Tight on Luttrell’s eyes starting to glaze over. Dying.” (Pages 1 - 2 of script.)
In the book, Luttrell is not in mortal danger. After the Army Rangers rescue Luttrell, he writes “First [the Army Rangers] radioed into base that I had been found, that I was stable and unlikely to die.” (page 352) They also, literally, stop and have tea with the locals, which you wouldn’t do with a dying man. Finally, when Luttrell makes it back to the base, instead of flatlining...
“...I tried to stand unassisted. I turned to the doc and looked him in the eye, and I told him, ‘I walked on here, and I’m walking off, by myself. I’m hurt, but I’m still a SEAL, and they haven’t finished me. I’m walking.” (page 357)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Lone Survivor (film) opens with voice over as a dying Marcus Luttrell is airlifted back to a military base. As the plane lands, Marcus Luttrell literally dies:
“Surgical pack working franticly [sic] to save Luttrell.
“Tight on HEART MONITOR: FLATLINE…
“Pushing in on the flatline. Alarm screaming. Tight on Luttrell’s eyes starting to glaze over. Dying.” (Pages 1 - 2 of script.)
In the book, Luttrell is not in mortal danger. After the Army Rangers rescue Luttrell, he writes “First [the Army Rangers] radioed into base that I had been found, that I was stable and unlikely to die.” (page 352) They also, literally, stop and have tea with the locals, which you wouldn’t do with a dying man. Finally, when Luttrell makes it back to the base, instead of flatlining...
“...I tried to stand unassisted. I turned to the doc and looked him in the eye, and I told him, ‘I walked on here, and I’m walking off, by myself. I’m hurt, but I’m still a SEAL, and they haven’t finished me. I’m walking.” (page 357)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Which Local Afghan Found Luttrell?
After the battle, according to the book, Luttrell is found by a local man named Sarawa, who also tends to his wounds. “I saw the leader walk up to me. He smiled and said his name was Sarawa.” (page 282)
According to the film, a local man named Gulab rescues him:
“A 30 year old male GULAB, the leader, strong rugged handsome, steps forward. Hands up in peace.
GULAB: Not Taliban.” (page 110)
According to Luttrell’s 60 Minutes interview, “That’s when an Afghan man appeared. Luttrell later learned his name was Mohammad Gulab.” Luttrell might have changed this detail to protect Gulab from retribution, but Gulab is mentioned by name later in the memoir.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
After the battle, according to the book, Luttrell is found by a local man named Sarawa, who also tends to his wounds. “I saw the leader walk up to me. He smiled and said his name was Sarawa.” (page 282)
According to the film, a local man named Gulab rescues him:
“A 30 year old male GULAB, the leader, strong rugged handsome, steps forward. Hands up in peace.
GULAB: Not Taliban.” (page 110)
According to Luttrell’s 60 Minutes interview, “That’s when an Afghan man appeared. Luttrell later learned his name was Mohammad Gulab.” Luttrell might have changed this detail to protect Gulab from retribution, but Gulab is mentioned by name later in the memoir.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Marcus Luttrell is Almost Beheaded by Ahmad Shah’s Soldiers
In the film, Ahmad Shah (or his lieutenant Taraq) comes to the village, grabs Luttrell, and drags him out to a log to behead him, literally raising a machete in the air. Luttrell is saved at the last minute by the local villagers, who fire off their AK-47s to threaten the attackers.
This doesn’t occur in the film’s screenplay. On page 115, Taraq, one of Ahmad Shah’s lieutenants, puts a knife to Luttrell’s throat in the room where he is staying, then the villagers stop him.
In reality, none of this happened. The Taliban does enter Luttrell’s room and begins beating him. (As Luttrell describes it, “I didn’t give that much of a shyt. I can suck this kind of crap up, like I’ve been trained. Anyway, they didn’t have a decent punch among them.” page 294) The village elder then enters the room, and commands the Taliban to leave. The whole ordeal takes about six hours. As Luttrell explains, his life was never in danger:
“I found out later [the village elder] was forbidding [the Taliban] from taking me away. I think they knew that before they came, otherwise I’d probably have been gone by then...They hardly said a word while this powerful little figure laid down the law. Tribal law, I guess…
“Upon the departure of the village elder, six hours after they’d arrived...the Taliban suddenly decided to leave.” (page 297)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
In the film, Ahmad Shah (or his lieutenant Taraq) comes to the village, grabs Luttrell, and drags him out to a log to behead him, literally raising a machete in the air. Luttrell is saved at the last minute by the local villagers, who fire off their AK-47s to threaten the attackers.
This doesn’t occur in the film’s screenplay. On page 115, Taraq, one of Ahmad Shah’s lieutenants, puts a knife to Luttrell’s throat in the room where he is staying, then the villagers stop him.
In reality, none of this happened. The Taliban does enter Luttrell’s room and begins beating him. (As Luttrell describes it, “I didn’t give that much of a shyt. I can suck this kind of crap up, like I’ve been trained. Anyway, they didn’t have a decent punch among them.” page 294) The village elder then enters the room, and commands the Taliban to leave. The whole ordeal takes about six hours. As Luttrell explains, his life was never in danger:
“I found out later [the village elder] was forbidding [the Taliban] from taking me away. I think they knew that before they came, otherwise I’d probably have been gone by then...They hardly said a word while this powerful little figure laid down the law. Tribal law, I guess…
“Upon the departure of the village elder, six hours after they’d arrived...the Taliban suddenly decided to leave.” (page 297)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Marcus Luttrell Pulls A Bullet From His Leg
In the film, Luttrell removes a bullet from his leg. According to my recollection of seeing the film, Luttrell does this himself after a young boy gets him a knife. According to the script, Gulab helps:
“Gruesome bullet removing sequence. Blood. Screaming digging scraping out bullets and shrapnel from Luttrell’s back and legs. Gulab digs with a knife. Pours water on the wounds. The little boy holds Luttrell’s hands and whispers to him.” (page 119)
According to the book, none of this happens. As soon as they reach the village, the locals give him medical aid. And there’s no bullet to be found:
“...watching as Sarawa went to work. He carefully cleaned the wounds to my leg, confirming what I had suspected, that there was no bullet lodged in my left thigh. Indeed, he located the bullet’s exit…
“Then he took out a small surgical instrument and began pulling metal shrapnel out of my leg. He spent a long time getting rid of every shard from that RPG he could find.” (page 290)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
In the film, Luttrell removes a bullet from his leg. According to my recollection of seeing the film, Luttrell does this himself after a young boy gets him a knife. According to the script, Gulab helps:
“Gruesome bullet removing sequence. Blood. Screaming digging scraping out bullets and shrapnel from Luttrell’s back and legs. Gulab digs with a knife. Pours water on the wounds. The little boy holds Luttrell’s hands and whispers to him.” (page 119)
According to the book, none of this happens. As soon as they reach the village, the locals give him medical aid. And there’s no bullet to be found:
“...watching as Sarawa went to work. He carefully cleaned the wounds to my leg, confirming what I had suspected, that there was no bullet lodged in my left thigh. Indeed, he located the bullet’s exit…
“Then he took out a small surgical instrument and began pulling metal shrapnel out of my leg. He spent a long time getting rid of every shard from that RPG he could find.” (page 290)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
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more
How the Afghans Alerted the Military
In the film, an old man heads over a mountain to alert the military to Luttrell’s location. In the script:
“MARINE: We’ve got a report of a letter asking for assistance.
“COMMANDER: From who?
“MARINE: Marcus Luttrell. Sir, they did a hand writing comparison and its [sic] does appear to be Luttrell.” (page 119)
In the book, the village elder walks to Asadabad to alert the military to Luttrell’s presence, but that’s ultimately not how the military found fim. Instead, Luttrell uses a radio air-dropped by the military:
“Before we left, I asked them how the hell they’d found me. And it turned out to be my emergency beacon in the window of the little rock house in the mountain.” (page 351)
60 Minutes tells a similar story. “He was finally rescued by U.S. forces who had been scouring the mountains.”
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
In the film, an old man heads over a mountain to alert the military to Luttrell’s location. In the script:
“MARINE: We’ve got a report of a letter asking for assistance.
“COMMANDER: From who?
“MARINE: Marcus Luttrell. Sir, they did a hand writing comparison and its [sic] does appear to be Luttrell.” (page 119)
In the book, the village elder walks to Asadabad to alert the military to Luttrell’s presence, but that’s ultimately not how the military found fim. Instead, Luttrell uses a radio air-dropped by the military:
“Before we left, I asked them how the hell they’d found me. And it turned out to be my emergency beacon in the window of the little rock house in the mountain.” (page 351)
60 Minutes tells a similar story. “He was finally rescued by U.S. forces who had been scouring the mountains.”
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
The Final Battle from Lone Survivor (Film)
Lone Survivor (film) ends with the village of Kandish fending off a Taliban attack in a gigantic firefight. From the script:
“The two men staring at each other as an incoming RPG slams into the house. Huge explosion.
“Frantic screaming from outside...Luttrell grabbing his vest and gun moving out just as a 2nd RPG detonates destroying the rest of Gulab’s house…
“Taraq attacks with his men.
“Brutal fight. Hand to hand, gun to gun. Gulab shot, Marcus shot again.” (page 121)
This fight continues, with a Marcus Luttrell sequence we’ll get to in the next section, until American planes and helicopters comes to the rescue.
In Lone Survivor (memoir) or reality, none of this happened. Gulab’s house isn’t destroyed, nor do the Taliban ever fire shots into the village. Gulab isn’t shot and Marcus isn’t shot again.
On page 336, it seems like the Taliban is going to attack, and Luttrell prepares for a firefight. But instead of attacking, they shoot bullets into the air, to scare the villagers. The most important reason is why they don’t attack: the Taliban can’t afford to lose the support of the villagers. Luttrell makes this very clear in the memoir:
“And then we both heard the opening bursts of gunfire, high up in the village.
“There was a lot of it. Too much. The sheer volume of fire was ridiculous, unless the Taliban were planning to wipe out the entire population of Sabray. And I knew they would not consider that because such a slaughter would surely end all support from these tribal villages up here in the mountains.
“No, they would not do that. They wanted me, but they would never kill another hundred Afghan people...in order to get me…(page 339)
“...[the Taliban] would not risk causing major disruption to the day-to-day lives of the people. I’d been [in Sabray] for five nights now and...and the Taliban had crossed the boundaries of Sabray only twice…” (page 341)
Later, Ahmad Shah and his men actually find Luttrell and Gulab on a flat field on the edge of the village. Do they attack? No. Why?
“The presence of Gulab made it a complete standoff, and [Shah] was not about to call in his guys to shoot the oldest son of Sabray’s village elder.” (page 345)
Gulab and Ahmad Shah actually have a discussion at this point, then Shah leaves.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Lone Survivor (film) ends with the village of Kandish fending off a Taliban attack in a gigantic firefight. From the script:
“The two men staring at each other as an incoming RPG slams into the house. Huge explosion.
“Frantic screaming from outside...Luttrell grabbing his vest and gun moving out just as a 2nd RPG detonates destroying the rest of Gulab’s house…
“Taraq attacks with his men.
“Brutal fight. Hand to hand, gun to gun. Gulab shot, Marcus shot again.” (page 121)
This fight continues, with a Marcus Luttrell sequence we’ll get to in the next section, until American planes and helicopters comes to the rescue.
In Lone Survivor (memoir) or reality, none of this happened. Gulab’s house isn’t destroyed, nor do the Taliban ever fire shots into the village. Gulab isn’t shot and Marcus isn’t shot again.
On page 336, it seems like the Taliban is going to attack, and Luttrell prepares for a firefight. But instead of attacking, they shoot bullets into the air, to scare the villagers. The most important reason is why they don’t attack: the Taliban can’t afford to lose the support of the villagers. Luttrell makes this very clear in the memoir:
“And then we both heard the opening bursts of gunfire, high up in the village.
“There was a lot of it. Too much. The sheer volume of fire was ridiculous, unless the Taliban were planning to wipe out the entire population of Sabray. And I knew they would not consider that because such a slaughter would surely end all support from these tribal villages up here in the mountains.
“No, they would not do that. They wanted me, but they would never kill another hundred Afghan people...in order to get me…(page 339)
“...[the Taliban] would not risk causing major disruption to the day-to-day lives of the people. I’d been [in Sabray] for five nights now and...and the Taliban had crossed the boundaries of Sabray only twice…” (page 341)
Later, Ahmad Shah and his men actually find Luttrell and Gulab on a flat field on the edge of the village. Do they attack? No. Why?
“The presence of Gulab made it a complete standoff, and [Shah] was not about to call in his guys to shoot the oldest son of Sabray’s village elder.” (page 345)
Gulab and Ahmad Shah actually have a discussion at this point, then Shah leaves.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Did Luttrell Stab Someone with a Knife at the End of Operation Red Wings?
In the film, as a battle rages on in the village, Marcus Luttrell stabs an attacker with a knife:
“The Taliban is on top of Luttrell, choking him, killing him. Luttrell’s hands claw at the man, digging into earth, grasping for wood, a stone, anything….when...a KNIFE, is slapped into Luttrell’s hand…
“Marcus buries the knife into the neck of the fighter.” (page 122)
In Lone Survivor (memoir), Luttrell never writes about attacking an enemy combatant while he’s being rescued. I can’t even find a relevant page from Lone Survivor (memoir) to dispute it because it diverges so radically from the book.
Luttrell is Rescued by U.S. Military
In the film, the military comes to the rescue of Luttrell in a roar of gunships and men descending from helicopters:
“We see gunners targeting. The 40mm firing with extreme precision...Air Force Search and Rescue Helicopter airmen charge out of the chopper toward Luttrell.” (page 122)
In the book, the Rangers find Luttrell in the forest as he and Gulab walk back to the village after Gulab spoke with Ahmad Shah.
“But right behind him, bursting through the undergrowth, came two U.S. Army Rangers in combat uniform, rifles raised...Behind me, with unbelievable presence of mind, Gulab was roaring out my BUD/S class numbers he’d seen on my Trident voodoo tattoo: “Two-two-eight! It’s Two-two-eight!”...
“By this time there was chaos on the mountain. Army guys were coming out of the forest from all over the place...
“They moved into action immediately. An army captain ordered a team to get me up out of the forest, onto higher ground…
“The atmosphere was unavoidably cheerful, because all the guys felt their mission was accomplished…
“The army threw up a security perimeter all the way around Sabray.
“The guys rustled up some tea and we settled down for a detailed debriefing.” (page 348-352)
I included all of these quotes above to clarify how safe Luttrell was once he was rescued. Again, they had time for tea.
Gulab Doesn’t Stay Behind in Salar Ban
In the film Lone Survivor, Gulab stays behind after Luttrell leaves. From page 123 of the script, “The US Airmen separate Marcus from Gulab, Marcus is too weak to resist...Gulab steps back as the helicopter takes off.” (page 123)
In the book, he joins Luttrell on the helicopter ride. “The guys helped me into the [helicopter] cabin, and Gulab joined me.”
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
In the film, as a battle rages on in the village, Marcus Luttrell stabs an attacker with a knife:
“The Taliban is on top of Luttrell, choking him, killing him. Luttrell’s hands claw at the man, digging into earth, grasping for wood, a stone, anything….when...a KNIFE, is slapped into Luttrell’s hand…
“Marcus buries the knife into the neck of the fighter.” (page 122)
In Lone Survivor (memoir), Luttrell never writes about attacking an enemy combatant while he’s being rescued. I can’t even find a relevant page from Lone Survivor (memoir) to dispute it because it diverges so radically from the book.
Luttrell is Rescued by U.S. Military
In the film, the military comes to the rescue of Luttrell in a roar of gunships and men descending from helicopters:
“We see gunners targeting. The 40mm firing with extreme precision...Air Force Search and Rescue Helicopter airmen charge out of the chopper toward Luttrell.” (page 122)
In the book, the Rangers find Luttrell in the forest as he and Gulab walk back to the village after Gulab spoke with Ahmad Shah.
“But right behind him, bursting through the undergrowth, came two U.S. Army Rangers in combat uniform, rifles raised...Behind me, with unbelievable presence of mind, Gulab was roaring out my BUD/S class numbers he’d seen on my Trident voodoo tattoo: “Two-two-eight! It’s Two-two-eight!”...
“By this time there was chaos on the mountain. Army guys were coming out of the forest from all over the place...
“They moved into action immediately. An army captain ordered a team to get me up out of the forest, onto higher ground…
“The atmosphere was unavoidably cheerful, because all the guys felt their mission was accomplished…
“The army threw up a security perimeter all the way around Sabray.
“The guys rustled up some tea and we settled down for a detailed debriefing.” (page 348-352)
I included all of these quotes above to clarify how safe Luttrell was once he was rescued. Again, they had time for tea.
Gulab Doesn’t Stay Behind in Salar Ban
In the film Lone Survivor, Gulab stays behind after Luttrell leaves. From page 123 of the script, “The US Airmen separate Marcus from Gulab, Marcus is too weak to resist...Gulab steps back as the helicopter takes off.” (page 123)
In the book, he joins Luttrell on the helicopter ride. “The guys helped me into the [helicopter] cabin, and Gulab joined me.”
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
The Mistakes or Exaggerations
Number of Afghan Fighters Who Attacked the SEALs?
Simply put, the SEALs on the hill that day were overwhelmed by an enemy force with superior numbers and superior fire power that held the high ground. However, there is a huge difference between an 8-10 men squad-sized enemy force and a 200 man infantry company-sized enemy force. Frankly, the Korengal and Shuryak valleys--the geographic region of Operation Red Wings--are very sparsely populated and could not support an enemy force of 200 people. This discrepancy is what first piqued our curiosity in Lone Survivor.
Increasing the size of the enemy that day makes for a much, much better story though. Numbers sell, and as Lone Survivor became more popular, the size of the enemy force that day increased with each telling. (Interestingly, the Lieutenant Murphy’s Medal of Honor Citation and Summary of Action contradict each other.) Here are the various descriptions of the number of enemy that attacked:
Accurate accounts:
Ed Darack in Victory Point: 8-10 enemy with a machine gun
Luttrell After Action Report: 20-30 enemy
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Citation: 30-40 enemy
Inaccurate accounts:
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Summary of Action: over 50 enemy
Marcus Luttrell on Today Show: 80-100 members of the Taliban
Lone Survivor (memoir): 140-200 enemy
Marcus Luttrell speeches after Lone Survivor: 200 enemy
Lone Survivor (screenplay): 50 enemy. “A solid line of at least fifty Taliban in firing positions on top of the hill above them.” (page 80)
Other various media outlets
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Simply put, the SEALs on the hill that day were overwhelmed by an enemy force with superior numbers and superior fire power that held the high ground. However, there is a huge difference between an 8-10 men squad-sized enemy force and a 200 man infantry company-sized enemy force. Frankly, the Korengal and Shuryak valleys--the geographic region of Operation Red Wings--are very sparsely populated and could not support an enemy force of 200 people. This discrepancy is what first piqued our curiosity in Lone Survivor.
Increasing the size of the enemy that day makes for a much, much better story though. Numbers sell, and as Lone Survivor became more popular, the size of the enemy force that day increased with each telling. (Interestingly, the Lieutenant Murphy’s Medal of Honor Citation and Summary of Action contradict each other.) Here are the various descriptions of the number of enemy that attacked:
Accurate accounts:
Ed Darack in Victory Point: 8-10 enemy with a machine gun
Luttrell After Action Report: 20-30 enemy
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Citation: 30-40 enemy
Inaccurate accounts:
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Summary of Action: over 50 enemy
Marcus Luttrell on Today Show: 80-100 members of the Taliban
Lone Survivor (memoir): 140-200 enemy
Marcus Luttrell speeches after Lone Survivor: 200 enemy
Lone Survivor (screenplay): 50 enemy. “A solid line of at least fifty Taliban in firing positions on top of the hill above them.” (page 80)
Other various media outlets
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Estimated Size of Ahmad Shah’s Enemy Force Before Operation Red Wings?
While any intelligence efforts in Afghanistan are fraught with confusion, before Operation Red Wings, the marines in Kunar believed Ahmad Shah led up to 20 people, according to Ed Darack. In Lone Survivor (memoir), this balloons to 200 people, an unreasonably large size. Here the various descriptions which exaggerate the size of Ahmad Shah’s “army”.
Accurate accounts:
Ed Darack in Marine Corps Gazette: up to 20 enemy combatants
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay: “we are estimating ten men” (page 18)
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): Shah led 80-200 enemy combatants
Lone Survivor (film) trailer: “that’s a lot more than ten guys. That’s an army.”
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay: “Quick shots of the Taliban army. Feels like 150 men.” (page 74)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
While any intelligence efforts in Afghanistan are fraught with confusion, before Operation Red Wings, the marines in Kunar believed Ahmad Shah led up to 20 people, according to Ed Darack. In Lone Survivor (memoir), this balloons to 200 people, an unreasonably large size. Here the various descriptions which exaggerate the size of Ahmad Shah’s “army”.
Accurate accounts:
Ed Darack in Marine Corps Gazette: up to 20 enemy combatants
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay: “we are estimating ten men” (page 18)
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): Shah led 80-200 enemy combatants
Lone Survivor (film) trailer: “that’s a lot more than ten guys. That’s an army.”
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay: “Quick shots of the Taliban army. Feels like 150 men.” (page 74)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Ahmad Shah: Major al Qaeda Leader or Osama bin Laden Lieutenant?
Ahmad Shah was an insurgent leader in Afghanistan, which is why the marines in the Pech launched Operation Red Wings. However, there is a huge difference between a local, Afghan insurgent leader and an al Qaeda operative. Prior to Operation Red Wings, Ahmad Shah was not a member of al Qaeda and had never met Osama bin Laden.
Accurate accounts:
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor citation: “a high-level, anti-coalition militia leader”
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Summary of Action: “Shah led a guerrilla group known to locals as the "Mountain Tigers" that had aligned with the Taliban and other militant groups close to the Pakistani border.”
Lone Survivor trailer: “senior Taliban commander”
* See below for discussion of term “Taliban”
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): “a leader of a serious Taliban force” (page 178); “He was also known to be one of Osama bin Laden’s closest associates.” (page 179)
Lone Survivor (film) award website: “a high-level al Qaeda operative”
Lone Survivor (film) Production Notes, Site and Universal Award website: “a high-level al Qaeda operative”
Other various media outlets
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Ahmad Shah was an insurgent leader in Afghanistan, which is why the marines in the Pech launched Operation Red Wings. However, there is a huge difference between a local, Afghan insurgent leader and an al Qaeda operative. Prior to Operation Red Wings, Ahmad Shah was not a member of al Qaeda and had never met Osama bin Laden.
Accurate accounts:
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor citation: “a high-level, anti-coalition militia leader”
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Summary of Action: “Shah led a guerrilla group known to locals as the "Mountain Tigers" that had aligned with the Taliban and other militant groups close to the Pakistani border.”
Lone Survivor trailer: “senior Taliban commander”
* See below for discussion of term “Taliban”
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): “a leader of a serious Taliban force” (page 178); “He was also known to be one of Osama bin Laden’s closest associates.” (page 179)
Lone Survivor (film) award website: “a high-level al Qaeda operative”
Lone Survivor (film) Production Notes, Site and Universal Award website: “a high-level al Qaeda operative”
Other various media outlets
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
The Number of Marines Killed by Ahmad Shah Before Operation Red Wings?
This is a mistake we didn’t identify in our initial post on the Lone Survivor memoir because Luttrell didn’t make a specific claim on how many people Shah had killed in the time before Operation Red Wings. The film Lone Survivor does make the claim in multiple places that Shah killed 20 marines in the week before Operation Red Wings. As iCasualties.org clearly shows--and have no doubt that US military casualties are meticulously recorded--the U.S. had not lost 20 marines in the week before Operation Red Wings.
Further, as mentioned above and in Darack’s reporting, Shah was a local player, not a regional leader. Kandahar is hundreds of miles from Kunar, and well outside Shah’s area of operations.
Accurate accounts:
iCasualty.org: No marines died in Kandahar in the week before Operation Red Wings. Only 3 U.S. soldiers or marines died in 2005 before Operation Red Wings.
Ed Darack in Victory Point: Shah was linked to 11 attacks.
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): : “...suffice it to say [Ahmad Shah] was a serious Taliban force, a sinister mountain man known to make forays into cities and known to have been directly responsible for several lethal attacks on U.S. Marines, always with bombs...had already murdered many of my colleagues in the U.S. Marines.” (page 179)
60 Minutes interview with Marcus Luttrell: “He was killing Marines, Army, I mean, you name it.”
Lone Survivor trailer 1: “Shah killed twenty marines last week. Twenty.”
Lone Survivor trailer 2: “Shah killed twenty marines last week. We let him go, 40 more will die next week.”
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay: “Shah just killed twenty marines last week…” (page 51)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
This is a mistake we didn’t identify in our initial post on the Lone Survivor memoir because Luttrell didn’t make a specific claim on how many people Shah had killed in the time before Operation Red Wings. The film Lone Survivor does make the claim in multiple places that Shah killed 20 marines in the week before Operation Red Wings. As iCasualties.org clearly shows--and have no doubt that US military casualties are meticulously recorded--the U.S. had not lost 20 marines in the week before Operation Red Wings.
Further, as mentioned above and in Darack’s reporting, Shah was a local player, not a regional leader. Kandahar is hundreds of miles from Kunar, and well outside Shah’s area of operations.
Accurate accounts:
iCasualty.org: No marines died in Kandahar in the week before Operation Red Wings. Only 3 U.S. soldiers or marines died in 2005 before Operation Red Wings.
Ed Darack in Victory Point: Shah was linked to 11 attacks.
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): : “...suffice it to say [Ahmad Shah] was a serious Taliban force, a sinister mountain man known to make forays into cities and known to have been directly responsible for several lethal attacks on U.S. Marines, always with bombs...had already murdered many of my colleagues in the U.S. Marines.” (page 179)
60 Minutes interview with Marcus Luttrell: “He was killing Marines, Army, I mean, you name it.”
Lone Survivor trailer 1: “Shah killed twenty marines last week. Twenty.”
Lone Survivor trailer 2: “Shah killed twenty marines last week. We let him go, 40 more will die next week.”
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay: “Shah just killed twenty marines last week…” (page 51)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Did the SEALs Take a Vote on What to Do with the Goatherders?
This is the most publicized mistake in the memoir Lone Survivor. Lieutenant Michael Murphy’s family specifically and publicly refuted Luttrell’s account that the SEALs took a vote and that Luttrell cast the deciding vote on what to do. In his 60 Minutes interview, Luttrell appears to retract his account, without admitting the error in his book.
Accurate accounts:
Peter Berg in The Q&A Podcast: “Mike Murphy made that decision. There wasn’t a vote.” (minute 00:54:00)
Lone Survivor screenplay: No vote takes place.
Lone Survivor trailer: “This is not a vote.”
Lone Survivor (film): No vote takes place.
60 Minutes: “Luttrell told us the unit discussed what to do and were divided. In the past he’s been criticized for saying they took a vote… something that’s not supposed to happen in SEAL teams because it’s up to the team leader to make a decision.
“Anderson Cooper: What did Mike finally decide to do?
“Marcus Luttrell: Oh, we cut 'em loose.”
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): “The deciding vote was mine and it will haunt me till they rest me in an east Texas grave. Mikey nodded, ‘I guess that’s two votes to one...’” (page 207)
Marcus Luttrell on the Today Show: Agrees with Matt Lauer when he says, “You took a vote.”
Marcus Luttrell’s personal website: “After taking a vote and basing their decision on ROE, Michael Murphy made the final decision to let them go.”
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
This is the most publicized mistake in the memoir Lone Survivor. Lieutenant Michael Murphy’s family specifically and publicly refuted Luttrell’s account that the SEALs took a vote and that Luttrell cast the deciding vote on what to do. In his 60 Minutes interview, Luttrell appears to retract his account, without admitting the error in his book.
Accurate accounts:
Peter Berg in The Q&A Podcast: “Mike Murphy made that decision. There wasn’t a vote.” (minute 00:54:00)
Lone Survivor screenplay: No vote takes place.
Lone Survivor trailer: “This is not a vote.”
Lone Survivor (film): No vote takes place.
60 Minutes: “Luttrell told us the unit discussed what to do and were divided. In the past he’s been criticized for saying they took a vote… something that’s not supposed to happen in SEAL teams because it’s up to the team leader to make a decision.
“Anderson Cooper: What did Mike finally decide to do?
“Marcus Luttrell: Oh, we cut 'em loose.”
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): “The deciding vote was mine and it will haunt me till they rest me in an east Texas grave. Mikey nodded, ‘I guess that’s two votes to one...’” (page 207)
Marcus Luttrell on the Today Show: Agrees with Matt Lauer when he says, “You took a vote.”
Marcus Luttrell’s personal website: “After taking a vote and basing their decision on ROE, Michael Murphy made the final decision to let them go.”
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Who Planned and Led Operation Red Wings?
This mistake is primarily a gigantic sin of omission in the Lone Survivor film and a sin of misdirection in the Lone Survivor memoir, which almost entirely ignores the role of marines in conceiving, planning and leading Operation Red Wings. The marines brought in SEALs to gain access to aviation support.
Accurate accounts:
Ed Darack in Marine Corps Gazette: “but 2/3 sought the integration of only a SOF aviation support element, not ground forces. The SOTF...responded that 2/3 could be granted 160th support, but only if SOF ground personnel undertook the opening two phases of RED WINGS and were tasked as the lead, supported elements with full OPCON (inclusive of 2/3) for these phases. With no alternatives, battalion staff agreed...The NAVSOF element planned the specifics of these first two phases of RED WINGS with 2/3’s staff providing input...”
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): “Almost every morning Chief Healy would run the main list of potential targets past Mikey, our team officer, and me. He usually gave us papers with a list of maybe twenty names and possible locations, and we made a short list of the guys we considered we should go after.” (page 179)
Lone Survivor (film): No mention of larger Marine mission. No mention of SEALs finding their own targets.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
This mistake is primarily a gigantic sin of omission in the Lone Survivor film and a sin of misdirection in the Lone Survivor memoir, which almost entirely ignores the role of marines in conceiving, planning and leading Operation Red Wings. The marines brought in SEALs to gain access to aviation support.
Accurate accounts:
Ed Darack in Marine Corps Gazette: “but 2/3 sought the integration of only a SOF aviation support element, not ground forces. The SOTF...responded that 2/3 could be granted 160th support, but only if SOF ground personnel undertook the opening two phases of RED WINGS and were tasked as the lead, supported elements with full OPCON (inclusive of 2/3) for these phases. With no alternatives, battalion staff agreed...The NAVSOF element planned the specifics of these first two phases of RED WINGS with 2/3’s staff providing input...”
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir): “Almost every morning Chief Healy would run the main list of potential targets past Mikey, our team officer, and me. He usually gave us papers with a list of maybe twenty names and possible locations, and we made a short list of the guys we considered we should go after.” (page 179)
Lone Survivor (film): No mention of larger Marine mission. No mention of SEALs finding their own targets.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
What was the Name of the Operation?
This is the most corrected mistake from Luttrell’s Lone Survivor (memoir). The name of the mission was “Operation Red Wings”, a fact supported by the Medal of Honor citation, Summary of Action, the U.S. Navy and every other source that didn’t rely on Marcus Luttrell’s original memoir for information. This fact was corrected by Peter Berg in his film.
Accurate accounts:
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Citation and Summary of Action, Victory Point, Lone Survivor (film), and Marcus Luttrell’s personal website.
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir) (from a copy purchased in December): “The Eyewitness Account of Operation Redwing”
the name of Gulab’s village is Salar Ban.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf
This is the most corrected mistake from Luttrell’s Lone Survivor (memoir). The name of the mission was “Operation Red Wings”, a fact supported by the Medal of Honor citation, Summary of Action, the U.S. Navy and every other source that didn’t rely on Marcus Luttrell’s original memoir for information. This fact was corrected by Peter Berg in his film.
Accurate accounts:
Lt. Murphy Medal of Honor Citation and Summary of Action, Victory Point, Lone Survivor (film), and Marcus Luttrell’s personal website.
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir) (from a copy purchased in December): “The Eyewitness Account of Operation Redwing”
the name of Gulab’s village is Salar Ban.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf
Ahmad Shah, Member of the Taliban?
The media and advertisements for Lone Survivor repeatedly refers to Ahmad Shah as a Taliban leader. In reality, the truth comes closest to the U.S. Navy’s Medal of Honor Summary of Action that Shah was “aligned” with the Taliban and other militant groups. (This same citation goes on to use Taliban interchangeably with “insurgent”.) As Ed Darack has written about extensively, Shah was much more closely aligned with Hezb il Gulbuddin, another insurgent group in Afghanistan. The best description is therefore “insurgent leader”, not Taliban leader.
In fairness to the media, Luttrell and Lone Survivor (film), the difference between insurgent groups in Afghanistan is a nuance the vast most do not understand. In fact, many if not most soldiers, don’t understand the difference. For instance, even I made this mistake as a young platoon leader in Afghanistan, describing all insurgents as “Taliban” when most in my area of operations were not.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
The media and advertisements for Lone Survivor repeatedly refers to Ahmad Shah as a Taliban leader. In reality, the truth comes closest to the U.S. Navy’s Medal of Honor Summary of Action that Shah was “aligned” with the Taliban and other militant groups. (This same citation goes on to use Taliban interchangeably with “insurgent”.) As Ed Darack has written about extensively, Shah was much more closely aligned with Hezb il Gulbuddin, another insurgent group in Afghanistan. The best description is therefore “insurgent leader”, not Taliban leader.
In fairness to the media, Luttrell and Lone Survivor (film), the difference between insurgent groups in Afghanistan is a nuance the vast most do not understand. In fact, many if not most soldiers, don’t understand the difference. For instance, even I made this mistake as a young platoon leader in Afghanistan, describing all insurgents as “Taliban” when most in my area of operations were not.
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
How many Insurgents Died During Operation Red Wings?
Multiple accounts--including the U.S. Navy--have put forward extremely high enemy casualty accounts during the battle between the SEALs and Shah’s men. The key here is that both the U.S. Navy and Luttrell claim the SEALs killed 35 enemy, not created 35 casualties (which includes dead and wounded).
The reality is that we will probably never know exactly how many insurgents died on the Sawtalo Sar that day. That said, the number of casualties sustained by the enemy, at the least, could not have exceeded the number of enemy involved in the fight. Further, if 50 insurgents attacked, then 35 dead insurgents means the SEALs killed 70% of the opposing force, which is virtually unheard of in warfare.
Inaccurate accounts:
Washington Post article about Marcus Luttrell: 35 bodies on the ground
U.S. Navy Summary of Action: “An estimated 35 Taliban were also dead.”
Lone Survivor (memoir): “We must have killed fifty or more of them” (page 221)
Lone Survivor (film): At least 23 enemy are killed (from The Q&A with Jeff Goldsmith)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Multiple accounts--including the U.S. Navy--have put forward extremely high enemy casualty accounts during the battle between the SEALs and Shah’s men. The key here is that both the U.S. Navy and Luttrell claim the SEALs killed 35 enemy, not created 35 casualties (which includes dead and wounded).
The reality is that we will probably never know exactly how many insurgents died on the Sawtalo Sar that day. That said, the number of casualties sustained by the enemy, at the least, could not have exceeded the number of enemy involved in the fight. Further, if 50 insurgents attacked, then 35 dead insurgents means the SEALs killed 70% of the opposing force, which is virtually unheard of in warfare.
Inaccurate accounts:
Washington Post article about Marcus Luttrell: 35 bodies on the ground
U.S. Navy Summary of Action: “An estimated 35 Taliban were also dead.”
Lone Survivor (memoir): “We must have killed fifty or more of them” (page 221)
Lone Survivor (film): At least 23 enemy are killed (from The Q&A with Jeff Goldsmith)
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Cellular phone or satellite phone?
The SEAL team inserted into the ridge line with a radio and a back up satellite phone as an emergency. Marcus Luttrell’s memoir refers to this phone as a “cell phone” throughout the book. This mistake has been corrected in the upcoming film.
Accurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay, trailer and film
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir)
Ahmad Shah versus Ben Sharmak
As we’ve covered before, Luttrell changed the name of the operation’s target from Ahmad Shah to Ben Sharmak for security purposes. The name “Ben Sharmak” only appears in Lone Survivor (memoir).
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
The SEAL team inserted into the ridge line with a radio and a back up satellite phone as an emergency. Marcus Luttrell’s memoir refers to this phone as a “cell phone” throughout the book. This mistake has been corrected in the upcoming film.
Accurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (film) screenplay, trailer and film
Inaccurate accounts:
Lone Survivor (memoir)
Ahmad Shah versus Ben Sharmak
As we’ve covered before, Luttrell changed the name of the operation’s target from Ahmad Shah to Ben Sharmak for security purposes. The name “Ben Sharmak” only appears in Lone Survivor (memoir).
- See more at: http://onviolence.com/?e=762#sthash.MQtsnvwz.dpuf[/SPOILER]
Fury616
www.illdust.com
A lot of those laptops they use are equipped with remote wiping software for obvious security reasons. If not, they just chalk it up and take the L.
Kurt off them percs
With Booker T wife
all them sensitive items they jacked too
did we ever recover their bodies?
edit: why this shyt in spoilers? theres no spoiler tags
@bk fyi
I seen this awhile back, as for the items its wasnt nothing important. Just locations for exfil. pics of HVTs and intel that was only for that mission only. Since it failed it was
I watched the movie and it was 
that fall from the mountain 
but they did their thing. Recon SEAL team took on like 200 tali. I knew the Chinook would get taken out based on the events but :who: homie was on his first mission. But the Navy didnt learn from this incident because another chopper got shot down in 2011 with SEAL team 6.yeah if you have time to read all that shyt i just posted, the number of enemy was most likely around 20-35, 50 max. And they weren't Taliban or Al Queda. Just a local insurgent group headed up by a local leaderI seen this awhile back, as for the items its wasnt nothing important. Just locations for exfil. pics of HVTs and intel that was only for that mission only. Since it failed it was
Kurt off them percs
With Booker T wife
you served, its a know fact that since the assassination for the east tali commander, they started rolling 100-200 man deep.
I aint tryin to debate you, breh. I wasn't there. The website I posted did an awful lot of research though.
Kurt off them percs
With Booker T wife
I aint tryin to debate you, breh. I wasn't there. The website I posted did an awful lot of research though.
we both could be wrong, but one thing we can agree on is these men fought like warriors
TheDarceKnight
Veteran
I aint tryin to debate you, breh. I wasn't there. The website I posted did an awful lot of research though.
Yeah the original after action reports had the number of enemy pretty low. It seemed to grow slightly in each subsequent report or interview. 35 or 50 or even 20-4 is still crazy odds when you're falling off a mountain and they're above you. I don't think anyone is lying. The guy that wrote Lone Survivor is a British military fiction writer. I would think that constant gunfire from a dozen plus enemy could easily seem like a hundred enemy. The book even got the title of the operation wrong. It was Red Wings, not Redwing. I think they were heroes and I don't think how many fighters that ambushed them really matters.
http://onviolence.com/?e=234