Kobe Was Ridiculous

[Controversy]

Shaq/Kobe MVP placements by year
'97: Shaq, t-9th place
'98: Shaq, 4th
'99: Shaq, 6th
'00: Shaq 1st, Kobe 12th
'01: Shaq 3rd, Kobe 9th
'02: Shaq 3rd, Kobe 5th
'03: Kobe 3rd, Shaq 5th
'04: Kobe 5th, Shaq 6th

They played together 8 years. You can't even begin to make a claim that they were relative equals until their Y6 together---->and by that time they'd already won two of their championships with Shaq far and away the better player...

It doesn't matter that Kobe "wasn't Kobe" early on in this instance, as this flawed 1a/1b argument is used by cats to support Kobe irrespective of defining a window in time...

There's a credible argument that their final three years together Shaq and Kobe were relative equals, and I've long felt that their final Finals run in '04, Kobe was the better player. There is no credibility to calling Kobe a "1b" before '02, and I remember the time well, Shaq was considered arguably the best player in basketball during the 3peat run, interchangeable with Duncan. Kobe was an ascending player by the year but it wasn't until after the 3 titles were won that Kobe was in any consensus "best player in the world" conversations...

This shyt didn't even really pick up steam, the notion Kobe was an equal to Shaq during their time together, until after Bean went on that comeback run. It was understood in real time those 3peat Lakers featured Shaq at his apex, with an ascending Young Kobe, with no question about who the #1 was but from maybe the most devout Kobe heads. People weren't really debating this shyt in the early 00s ...

Your original post focused on total title count but several guys, including Wilt and Bird, are consistently ranked over Kobe, then when I point out heads understand that being a #1 on a title team holds more weight than just winning a title in and of itself, you pivot to this "1a/1b" nonsense...

We don't disagree that Kobe is a greater player than Pippen. But Kobe became a better player than Pippen, certainly thru Kobe's first 2 championships you couldn’t make that argument and you could barely make it thru title #3. Game Score for each in all The Finals they played in:

'09 Kobe: 22.8
'02 Kobe: 20.3
'10 Kobe: 18.7
'92 Pip: 18.1
'91 Pip: 17.5
'01 Kobe: 17.2
'08 Kobe: 16.4
'93 Pip: 15.6
'97 Pip: 15.1
'96 Pip: 13.4
'98 Pip: 13
'04 Kobe: 11.6
'00 Kobe: 9.7

Kobe has the three strongest performances but also the two lowest. On the aggregate he wasn't much greater than Pippen in most of his Finals, and while he was with Shaq, there isn't any confusion who was #1 during the 3peat...

Stop the clown shyt

Kobe was the one defending the best player, running the offense, scoring the clutch baskets during the 3peat

Shaq obv had value but diminishing Kobe's value is something haters do to downplay his greatness

Kobe was 21 and had the 2 defining games in the 2000 playoffs

Kobe was better than Shaq in the 01 playoffs as a whole

Kobe and Shaq were both alphas in 02

You Kobe haters make me sick...he was the best player of his generation and truth be told, he was held back the first 5 yrs of his career

 

[murksiderock]

Stop the clown shyt

Kobe was the one defending the best player, running the offense, scoring the clutch baskets during the 3peat

Shaq obv had value but diminishing Kobe's value is something haters do to downplay his greatness

Kobe was 21 and had the 2 defining games in the 2000 playoffs

Kobe was better than Shaq in the 01 playoffs as a whole

Kobe and Shaq were both alphas in 02

You Kobe haters make me sick...he was the best player of his generation and truth be told, he was held back the first 5 yrs of his career

Here we go with this "Kobe was held back", super revisionist, Super Stan Kobe bull...

If Kobe was ready to be That Guy there isn't anything that would have stifled that affirmation, as there's too many examples of guys in NBA history who walk in the door smoking shyt. He wasn't ready, he needed time to develop. That ain't no hater shyt...

2000 Kobe was Y4 and had those games but there's no argument for Kobe being a better player than the MVP of The League who was on his own team. So we don't even need to talk about 2000...

Kobe took a big leap in Y5/'01, became more of "Can be the best guy on a given night" guy rather than a complimentary piece, but 2001 was his very first year doing so. Shaq was way ahead of him in MVP consideration and more dominant in The Finals...

You can make the argument that Kobe was relatively equal to Shaq beginning in '02. This 1a/1b shyt is some cop out shyt you nikkas like to use to completely reinvent the real time sentiment. We were there, we know better...

 

[Controversy]

Here we go with this "Kobe was held back", super revisionist, Super Stan Kobe bull...

If Kobe was ready to be That Guy there isn't anything that would have stifled that affirmation, as there's too many examples of guys in NBA history who walk in the door smoking shyt. He wasn't ready, he needed time to develop. That ain't no hater shyt...

2000 Kobe was Y4 and had those games but there's no argument for Kobe being a better player than the MVP of The League who was on his own team. So we don't even need to talk about 2000...

Kobe took a big leap in Y5/'01, became more of "Can be the best guy on a given night" guy rather than a complimentary piece, but 2001 was his very first year doing so. Shaq was way ahead of him in MVP consideration and more dominant in The Finals...

You can make the argument that Kobe was relatively equal to Shaq beginning in '02. This 1a/1b shyt is some cop out shyt you nikkas like to use to completely reinvent the real time sentiment. We were there, we know better...

Kobe was a top 10-12 player in 2000
He was top 5 in 01 and 02

Comparing him to Pippen is disingenuous bc Pip could never takeover games the way 21-22 yr old Kobe could

Every tight game, it was Kobe who made the winning plays...I guess that counts for nothing

Kobe was supposed to be on the bench Y3, a yr he averaged 20...and you want me to think he wasn't held back????

The disrespect of Bean has to stop...he pulled his weight...in fact, he had more responsibilities than Shaq within the triangle

You'll never hear me say Shaq & Kobe were equals in 2000, but in 01 & 02 they damn sure were

 

[murksiderock]

Kobe was a top 10-12 player in 2000
He was top 5 in 01 and 02

Comparing him to Pippen is disingenuous bc Pip could never takeover games the way 21-22 yr old Kobe could

Every tight game, it was Kobe who made the winning plays...I guess that counts for nothing

Kobe was supposed to be on the bench Y3, a yr he averaged 20...and you want me to think he wasn't held back????

The disrespect of Bean has to stop...he pulled his weight...in fact, he had more responsibilities than Shaq within the triangle

You'll never hear me say Shaq & Kobe were equals in 2000, but in 01 & 02 they damn sure were

So then the only year we disagree on is '01. We can agree to disagree, you nikkas gotta get off this online shyt that anytime men disagree on something is "disrespect". Ain't no one attacked Kobe's character as a man or a person, we talking basketball, family. I hope you not like this in real life...

I think it's pretty clear who was the 3peat Lakers #1, I don't think there's a credible debate and I remember the real time sentiment that Shaq was arguably the best player in The League. Bit we can agree to disagree...

 

[Controversy]

So then the only year we disagree on is '01. We can agree to disagree, you nikkas gotta get off this online shyt that anytime men disagree on something is "disrespect". Ain't no one attacked Kobe's character as a man or a person, we talking basketball, family. I hope you not like this in real life...

I think it's pretty clear who was the 3peat Lakers #1, I don't think there's a credible debate and I remember the real time sentiment that Shaq was arguably the best player in The League. Bit we can agree to disagree...

01 was the yr Shaq averaged 30 & Kobe averaged 29 in the playoffs right?

01 was the yr Shaq averaged 28.7 & Kobe averaged 28.5 in the reg season right?

 

[melraH]

Nikkas spent an entire near summer night arguing and responding to eachother . They need to fight or fukk too much passion involved

 

[LexDiamonds]

Its hilarious watching you bums argue over stats when all you need to do is use the bloody eye test

you can tell who is a real baller and who never had any feel or talent in the game

EVERY REAL BALLER WORTH A DAMN WILL TELL YOU KOBE OVER LEBRON

How one can watch both and come to the conclusion bron is better is insane.

Its Mike 1A and Kobe 1B

LEBRON CANT EVEN GET HIS OWN SHOT WITHOUT A PICK FOR GOD SAKES

END OF STORY

Are these guys "ballers"?



















and that's just a few.. Don't act like your words hold more wait than those "real ballers"

 

[fifth column]

Wow you didn't think. If you take Nash out of the running, Kobe's 1st place votes don't change at all, while everyone else's 2nd/3rd/4th place votes jump up. The fact that Kobe had already maxed out with the few voters who supported him means that without Nash, he would have been even FURTHER behind Bron and Dirk.





So you're still lying on him even after ducking the ban bet? Wow. And even your fellow LWO stans have admitted they see Middle Easterners as "CAC" too, so you're just as bad in their eyes. Seems like a silly basis for an argument.

Why not just go objective?

Kobe had the 6th best record in the West that year, just a game ahead of the Nuggets and Kings who no one gave a shyt about.
Kobe was 4th in Win Shares.
Kobe was 5th in Box Plus-Minus.
Kobe was 2nd in VORP, but was a mile behind Bron and just 0.1 of a point ahead of Dirk.
Compared to top-3 candidates, Kobe was 3rd or worse in rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, FG%, 3pt%, FT%....every category except scoring.
Not to mention, Kobe went on to LOSE to Nash in the playoffs, even though Nash's #2 option (Shawn Marion) wasn't as good as Kobe's (Lamar Odom).

So by all the "objective" measures, Kobe had no MVP case anyway.


Meanwhile...

Bron had the 3rd best record in the East, just 2 games behind Miami who ended up winning the whole thing
Bron was 2nd in Win Shares
Bron was 1st in Box Plus-Minus
Bron was 1st in VORP by a large margin
Bron actually won his 1st round, and pushed the former champ Pistons to 7 in the ECSF despite his #2 option being out for most of the series


If we went only by "Objective" criteria, and leave out the personal bias, Bron had a better case by every measure. And the vast majority of voters agreed.

So Bron had some good competitive Cavs teams then

 

[fifth column]

Shaq/Kobe MVP placements by year
'97: Shaq, t-9th place
'98: Shaq, 4th
'99: Shaq, 6th
'00: Shaq 1st, Kobe 12th
'01: Shaq 3rd, Kobe 9th
'02: Shaq 3rd, Kobe 5th
'03: Kobe 3rd, Shaq 5th
'04: Kobe 5th, Shaq 6th

They played together 8 years. You can't even begin to make a claim that they were relative equals until their Y6 together---->and by that time they'd already won two of their championships with Shaq far and away the better player...

It doesn't matter that Kobe "wasn't Kobe" early on in this instance, as this flawed 1a/1b argument is used by cats to support Kobe irrespective of defining a window in time...

There's a credible argument that their final three years together Shaq and Kobe were relative equals, and I've long felt that their final Finals run in '04, Kobe was the better player. There is no credibility to calling Kobe a "1b" before '02, and I remember the time well, Shaq was considered arguably the best player in basketball during the 3peat run, interchangeable with Duncan. Kobe was an ascending player by the year but it wasn't until after the 3 titles were won that Kobe was in any consensus "best player in the world" conversations...

This shyt didn't even really pick up steam, the notion Kobe was an equal to Shaq during their time together, until after Bean went on that comeback run. It was understood in real time those 3peat Lakers featured Shaq at his apex, with an ascending Young Kobe, with no question about who the #1 was but from maybe the most devout Kobe heads. People weren't really debating this shyt in the early 00s ...

Your original post focused on total title count but several guys, including Wilt and Bird, are consistently ranked over Kobe, then when I point out heads understand that being a #1 on a title team holds more weight than just winning a title in and of itself, you pivot to this "1a/1b" nonsense...

We don't disagree that Kobe is a greater player than Pippen. But Kobe became a better player than Pippen, certainly thru Kobe's first 2 championships you couldn’t make that argument and you could barely make it thru title #3. Game Score for each in all The Finals they played in:

'09 Kobe: 22.8
'02 Kobe: 20.3
'10 Kobe: 18.7
'92 Pip: 18.1
'91 Pip: 17.5
'01 Kobe: 17.2
'08 Kobe: 16.4
'93 Pip: 15.6
'97 Pip: 15.1
'96 Pip: 13.4
'98 Pip: 13
'04 Kobe: 11.6
'00 Kobe: 9.7

Kobe has the three strongest performances but also the two lowest. On the aggregate he wasn't much greater than Pippen in most of his Finals, and while he was with Shaq, there isn't any confusion who was #1 during the 3peat...

What was AD and Bron’s gamescore for the 2020 bubblegum chip?

 

[fifth column]

Are these guys "ballers"?



















and that's just a few.. Don't act like your words hold more wait than those "real ballers"

You think Lebron is the goat over MJ?

 

[LexDiamonds]

You think Lebron is the goat over MJ?

I have Lebron number 2 all-time

 

[Killer Instinct]

The name "Kobe Bryant" is to some what "Hillary Clinton" and "Diversity" is to right wingers. Hearts begin racing. Palms get sweaty. Blood starts boiling. Could legitimately be a case study as to the visceral, emotional tidal wave it generates. It's a borderline traumatic response.

 

[murksiderock]

What was AD and Bron’s gamescore for the 2020 bubblegum chip?

Here's a better question, if Kawhi Leonard brought the Clips their first title that year, would you still consider it a bubblegum chip? What if young Tatum and Brown did it, or if it was Giannis' first?

If anybody won it other than LeBron would you call it a bubblegum title?

Your Google works just like mine but to answer your question, LeBron had a 27.5 GmSc and AD had 22.8...

 

[LexDiamonds]

Here's a better question, if Kawhi Leonard brought the Clips their first title that year, would you still consider it a bubblegum chip? What if young Tatum and Brown did it, or if it was Giannis' first?

If anybody won it other than LeBron would you call it a bubblegum title?

Your Google works just like mine but to answer your question, LeBron had a 27.5 GmSc and AD had 22.8...

Giannis:

The NBA title in Orlando "is going to be the toughest championship you could ever win"

Rondo:

This one by far was the hardest one

Erik Spoelstra:

“I think this might be certainly the most worthy of all world championships in the NBA because of all the things that every team is going to have to navigate and overcome to be able to be crowned a champion"

Mike Malone:

There’s no asterisk. You win an NBA championship anytime, it’s a hell of an accomplishment. But in these circumstances, these unprecedented times, with everything going on … I think it will be a remarkable accomplishment.

Dame Lillard:

Bron is right...What I’m saying made it easier to play well... we all had the same advantage ... no travel , instant recovery options, no home/away crowd, no time change... more rest...which means it will be harder to WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP

Kevin Durant:

“I think it will be respected for sure,” he continued.

“Probably more respected. It’s tough for the boys in there. They’ve been away from everybody for that long. To be the last one standing? That’s going to be tough.”

Mike Budenholzer :

“I feel like the champion from this experience, from this season, is going to be more worthy and more special than any champion,”

Gilbert Arenas:

“People are like man that was the easiest championship. I say technically, technically that is the hardest championship because it’s LeBron [James] and the Lakers. Now, when you think about the fan base of the Laker team and a LeBron team, every arena they would have went it in, he was fan favorite. So when you are in a Bubble, it took the fans’ favorite out of them. Now you don’t get booed at your own home.”

Those are quotes from real nba players or coaches. Their word holds much more weight than a bunch of internet Karens who are upset the team or player they don't like won it.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Kobe was the one defending the best player,

These best players?

15ppg on 58 TS% - Steve Smith regular season
18ppg on 61 TS% - Steve Smith against Lakers


18ppg on 60 TS% - Reggie Miller regular season
24ppg on 59 TS% - Reggie Miller against Lakers


18ppg on 55 TS% - Jalen Rose regular season
23ppg on 56 TS% - Jalen Rose against Lakers


31ppg on 52 TS% - Allen Iverson regular season
36ppg on 49 TS% - Allen Iverson against Lakers


14ppg on 51 TS% - Mike Bibby regular season
23ppg on 53 TS% - Mike Bibby against Lakers


18ppg on 52 TS% - Rip Hamilton regular season
21ppg on 50 TS% - Rip Hamilton against Lakers


17 ppg on 55 TS% - Chauncey Billups regular season
21ppg on 70 TS% - Chauncey Billups against Lakers

scoring the clutch baskets during the 3peat

Shaq scored just as many baskets in the clutch as Kobe. The idea that only Kobe scored in the clutch was a narrative made up after the fact to hate on Shaq.

Kobe was 21 and had the 2 defining games in the 2000 playoffs

lol at that stan-tinted glasses. Some of y'all distort reality.


The defining game of the 2000 playoffs wasn't the very first game of the playoffs when Shaq put up 46 and 17 with 5 blocks.

It wasn't his 38 and 20 with 5 blocks game against the Suns (a line he damn near replicated in three straight games).

It wasn't the 41-11-7 with 5 blocks masterpiece against Portland.

It wasn't the 43-19-4 with 3 blocks game to start the Finals against the Pacers

Or the 40-24-4 with 3 blocks game to beat the Pacers with Kobe out of the game completely

Or the 41-12-1 with 4 blocks game to clinch the title



Nah, it was....Kobe scoring 28 points on 27 shots, just cause he happened to make 2 jump shots when Lakers were already in the lead? Kobe wasn't even a top-2 player in that GAME, Reggie had 35 points on just 19 shots and Shaq dropped 36 and 21. Kobe literally did his job and made a couple open jump shots, that doesn't define the playoffs just cause he gets hype.

And I don't even know the other "defining game"....you mean Game 7 against Portland? A 25 point effort that Lakers were destined to lose until Shaw hit 3 threes in the final 12 minutes? Shaq had 9 in the fourth of that game, Kobe had 9 too but it took him 3-7 shooting to get it and he missed 3 clutch free throws. Giving Kobe all the credit when two other players scored just as many points in the run with far fewer misses is wild.

The way y'all need to diminish the most dominant center in your squad's history in order to prop up his #2 makes me sick.

Kobe was better than Shaq in the 01 playoffs as a whole

No he wasn't lol.

30-15-3 and 2.5 blocks on 56% shooting
29-7-6 and 1.5 steals on 47% shooting

Plus Shaq was better on defense and was MUCH better in the biggest series, the only one that was close. All but one of Kobe's big games that series came in blowouts, in the first two close wins against Sac, the close game against San Antonio, and all the games against Phily, he was a lot quieter.

Kobe and Shaq were both alphas in 02

True, but Shaq was clearly better, especially in the biggest series. That year Kobe kept pressing because he wanted to be known as the #1, and that's probably why he shot just 43% in the playoffs always trying to get his.

You Kobe haters make me sick...

It's just basketball breh, not everyone has to have the same opinion as you. Especially the way y'all deify him and diminish everyone else as a response, it's not surprising that you're going to get pushback. So long as no one makes it personal about you, why should you care?