Kobe at 22 vs LeBron at 22

[Swagnificent]

Kobe wasnt on the team to get assist, Kobe doesn't chase stats

Not only that. In the triangle offense it's about getting guys post touches. Typically those passes don't lead to assists like a pick n roll offense based on kicking it out to shooters.

When Kobe passed to Shaq, it was typically in the form of an entry pass where Shaq would then go to work. Those passes don't end up as assists.

It's sad that most fans don't know the differences in schemes and how they affect personal stats.


This is why players like D-Wade, Durant, and Dirk say Kobe is better than LeBron. Players more than anyone know their numbers. They just also know how much scheme and playing style affect it. The fact they still take Kobe over LeBron unanimously should let you know that there is more to the game than stats.

 

[Swagnificent]

WTF IS THIS BULLshyt?





​

Some made up shyt. Even the dudes that cite them don't know what they mean.

 

[Supreme365]

And yet the only number anyone remembers is 5-2 >>> 3-5.

LeBron = Payton Manning of the NBA
Kobe = Tom Brady of the NBA

No one calls Peyton Manning the GOAT despite his superior numbers to just about anyone that has ever played the position. But people say that about Brady. Why?

Cause at the end of the day the only number people remember is the number of rings you win.

Those rings are a team accomplishments kobe was lucky to drafted by the lakers if you switched roles bron would have 5 if not more kobe starting off on the cavs tho

 

[Draje]

Go and look back over those rosters. Most were nothing before or after Kobe. The few quality players were average to above average.

Kobe only played with one other all-star during that 3 year finals run. Pau Gasol. A guy who before he teammed up with Kobe was a 1-time All-Star who had never won a playoff game.

Pau Gasol before Kobe was less thought of than Chris Bosh and Kevin Love. 2 guys that were 3rd options on LeBron's championship teams. A strong argument could be made that Kobe's #2 was worse than LeBron's #3. And at the very least Gasol was equivalent to Bosh and Love.

Bullshyt. Let's pull up numbers for Kobe and Lebron's 2nd and 3rd option during their respective three peats then you tell me which one you'd take.

Wade-

22.8 (46%) / 5.2 REB / 4.3 AST (3 TOV) / 1.7 STLS / 1.3 BLKS - 1st Ring

15.9 PPG (46%) / 4.6 REB / 4.8 AST (2.6 TOV) / 1.7 STL / 1 BLK - 2nd Ring

2nd option Gasol:

18.3 PPG (58%) / 10.8 REB / 2.5 AST (1.9 TOV) / .8 STLS / 2 BLKS - 1st ring

19.6 PPG (52%) / 11.1 REB / 3.5 AST (1.9 TOV) / .4 STL / 2.1 BLKS

3rd Option Bosh:

14 PPG (49%) / 7.8 REB / .6 AST (1.4 TOV) / .4 STL / 1 BLK - 1st ring

12.1 (45%) / 7.3 REB / 1.5 AST (1.2 TOV) / 1 STL / 1.6 BLK 2nd ring

3rd option Odom:

12.3 (52%) / 9.1 REB / 1.8 AST (1.7 TOV) / .7 STL / 1.3 BLK - 1st ring

9.7 (46%) / 8.6 REB / 2 AST (1.2 TOV) / .7 STL / .9 BLK 2nd ring

So you wanna tell me that Bosh and Wade's statlines are drastically superior to Odom's and Gasol's? Mind you, you also say that the stats in the East are inflated because the East is so weak and that's why Lebron's playoff numbers don't matter.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Kobe wasnt on the team to get assist, Kobe doesn't chase stats

@The Dankster you want to pull up the play by play for the month he averaged 40 and started hijacking the laker offense to pad his scoring late in games and started costing them games? How about the play by play for the 2003 and 2004 playoffs? For fukks sake, Kobe himself has said that late in games he wasn't looking to pass the ball, only to get points for himself.

"Kobe doesn't chase stats"

I believe you're looking for this post, where it got so bad that his own coach was repeatedly mocking Kobe and complaining about his stat-chasing:

"Well, I wasn't sure if Kobe was going to chase that 40 points so bad that he was going to cut our chances out there at the end of the game," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "It got a little tenuous."



Kobe did play well in the first three games of the streak - one was against a terrible Knicks team and the other two were back-to-backs against a Nuggets team that was the worst in the NBA. After that, he was down to pure chasing:

* In the 4th game of the streak he put up 41 shots and 7 turnovers in a 10-point loss to the Spurs, finally getting over the 40-point hump with the Lakers down 11 with 54 seconds left in the game. Shaq only saw 19 shot attempts the whole game and barely got to the line.

* In the 5th game Kobe was so focused on his own offense he lets Allan Houston light him up for a career-high 53 points on just 29 shots. Kobe managed to limp to 40 on 31 shots with the Lakers down 9 and 66 seconds left in the 7-point loss at home to an awful Knicks team.

* In the 6th game Kobe doesn't even have 40 in regulation, but gets lucky that it goes to overtime (he missed all 4 shots in the last 2 minutes of regulation) and reaches 50 in double-overtime off of 38 shots

* In the 7th game the Lakers without Kobe had opened up a 10-point lead on the Jazz in the 4th. But Kobe comes in with 7 minutes left and starts repeatedly jacking long jumpers with plenty of time left in the shot clock. The Jazz cut the lead to 2 before a few of Kobe's jumpers fall and hold them off. He finally hits 40 by going 2-4 on free throws in the final 15 seconds.

* In the 8th game Kobe went 2-8 in the 4th against Portland, repeatedly jacking bad shots. He finally got a jumper to fall with 9 seconds left to hit 40 points. After the game Phil Jackson criticized Kobe:"There were a few poor shots. He's going to have some of those that he thinks he can still make because he has that belief. But there were six or seven (forced shots) that were in that range that was questionable, and we talked a little about that after the game.'

The Phil hits Kobe with the full-on sarcastic passive-aggressive quote: "I was happy when he got his 40th point, even if it wasn't meaningful to win the game, it was still nice to see,'' he said.


* In the 9th game was the worst display. Kobe went 1-9 in the 4th, including 0-6 in the final 4 minutes after he reached 39 points. During that time an 11-point Laker lead got cut to 5 as Kobe just jacked shot after shot, often with tons of time still on the shot clock. "Well, I wasn't sure if Kobe was going to chase that 40 points so bad that he was going to cut our chances out there at the end of the game," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "It got a little tenuous." Kobe finally got put on the line with 23 seconds left and made 2 freebies to reach 41 points on 13-34 shooting.


In those last three games, when Kobe was really stretching for the totals, he averaged 1.7 assists/game.


So in the final 6 games of the streak, Kobe didn't once hit 40 points with more than a minute left to go in regulation, and only then by jacking up shots to the detriment of his own team. If he hadn't been chasing "the streak", he probably doesn't score 40 points in any of those games unless the Houston game still goes to overtime. What other superstar in league history has so regularly chased his own scoring accomplishments like that? It's why Kobe has the fans and the haters that he does.

 

[Black_Panther_JS]

Will pass him in all time points when it's all said and done too

and that's where a lie was told

 

[camer999]

Really? 5-2 vs 3-5? Cause they pretty much avoid this fact like the plague. All they do is make excuses.

LeBron stans have only one thing going for them. Individual Stats. So that is all they harp on. Something that everyone who plays sports knows is more reflective of the system and scheme you play in than your ability in most cases. They're the type of guys who will claim the air raid Washington State QB is better than a guy who runs a pro-style offense in Florida State because he has better numbers.

I'm just more true to the actual nature of sports which is actually watching the games and analyzing the players that way versus thinking that the box score somehow tells you more.

There is a reason NFL and NBA talent evaluators look at TAPE to judge prospects when they are drafting. They don't just look up the stats and make decisions based on that. They watch the TAPE.

Eye Test >>> Box score

You are right it is a fact that lebron is 3-5, but we are talking individual player vs individual player. Championship are a team effort, FACT. To me lebron has one of the largest if not the largest impact on the overal l team I've seen. So many teams he has been on has gotten so much further than they could've with the addition of that dude. Kobe's game is prettier though and is more technically skilled. Even though I think bron has a better mental game.

 

[Swagnificent]

Bullshyt. Let's pull up numbers for Kobe and Lebron's 2nd and 3rd option during their respective three peats then you tell me which one you'd take.

Wade-

22.8 (46%) / 5.2 REB / 4.3 AST (3 TOV) / 1.7 STLS / 1.3 BLKS - 1st Ring

15.9 PPG (46%) / 4.6 REB / 4.8 AST (2.6 TOV) / 1.7 STL / 1 BLK - 2nd Ring

2nd option Gasol:

18.3 PPG (58%) / 10.8 REB / 2.5 AST (1.9 TOV) / .8 STLS / 2 BLKS - 1st ring

19.6 PPG (52%) / 11.1 REB / 3.5 AST (1.9 TOV) / .4 STL / 2.1 BLKS

3rd Option Bosh:

14 PPG (49%) / 7.8 REB / .6 AST (1.4 TOV) / .4 STL / 1 BLK - 1st ring

12.1 (45%) / 7.3 REB / 1.5 AST (1.2 TOV) / 1 STL / 1.6 BLK 2nd ring

3rd option Odom:

12.3 (52%) / 9.1 REB / 1.8 AST (1.7 TOV) / .7 STL / 1.3 BLK - 1st ring

9.7 (46%) / 8.6 REB / 2 AST (1.2 TOV) / .7 STL / .9 BLK 2nd ring

So you wanna tell me that Bosh and Wade's statlines are drastically superior to Odom's and Gasol's? Mind you, you also say that the stats in the East are inflated because the East is so weak and that's why Lebron's playoff numbers don't matter.

Talk about completing flipping the argument on it's head. I absolutely agree with you that LeBron hampered Bosh and Wade stats when they played together. Both saw their numbers plummet. While Kobe did a much better job of letting Gasol and Odom play their natural game. Their numbers (especially Gasol) stayed about where it was when he played in Memphis.

I was talking about these players BEFORE they got paired up with Kobe and LeBron. Wade and Bosh were vastly superior to Gasol and Odom. Why don't you compare those 4 guys career stats before they teammed up with Kobe and LeBron?

You changed this up cause you know that Wade and Bosh were vastly superior to Gasol and Odom before they played with LeBron. LeBron is just a guy who can only play one way. One in which he dominates the ball and forces the other stars to change their game to fit him. That is how Bosh became a 3-point shooter rather than the post-up big he used to be. And how Wade went from dominant on ball player to backdoor cutter.

Pre-LeBron Wade and Bosh >>> Pre-Kobe Gasol and Odom

You see when you play with LeBron, your personal stats plummet because LeBron is all about his numbers and its on his teammates to sacrifice what they typically do to placate him.

 

[Swagnificent]

You are right it is a fact that lebron is 3-5, but we are talking individual player vs individual player. Championship are a team effort, FACT. To me lebron has one of the largest if not the largest impact on the overal l team I've seen. So many teams he has been on has gotten so much further than they could've with the addition of that dude. Kobe's game is prettier though and is more technically skilled. Even though I think bron has a better mental game.

But we are talking about individual success here. Championships are the most important metric when judging great players cause that is the purpose of sports. You play to win.

If sports was just about individual stats, you think Kobe would have spent 7 years playing with Shaq? Do you think he would've complained about 2005-07 when he was averaging 35/5/5 and 32/6/5 in consecutive years?

Bruh. Kobe SACRIFICED stats for wins his entire career. I mentioned this many times but yall don't seem to understand basketball well enough to get it. But Kobe played the way he played cause it was more conducive to winning. Being a dominant mid-range player allows you to play with low post bigs like Shaq, Gasol, and Bynum. This is better for winning rings.

LeBron would rather play with 3-point shooters that space the floor. This is good for recording triple doubles and personal stats not good for winning rings.

If winning championships wasn't the metric great players were judged by, guys like Kobe would have gone about it very differently.

 

[FlyRy]

and that's where a lie was told

He only needs to average 25 a game or so for the next 2.5 seasons to pass him.

It's almost inevitable

 

[Swagnificent]

Those rings are a team accomplishments kobe was lucky to drafted by the lakers if you switched roles bron would have 5 if not more kobe starting off on the cavs tho

This whole LeBron does more with less argument died years ago. LeBron played with more talent than Kobe ever did in Miami and had less success than Kobe had with fukkin Pau Gasol. LeBron now has 2 more all-stars beside him in Cleveland and is back to losing championships.

2008-2010 totally deads this argument.

Kobe took a team with only one other all-star (Gasol who before playing with Kobe had less individual success than Bosh) and got to 3 straight finals (from the West) winning 2 rings.

LeBron took a team with two all-stars and got to 4 straight finals winning only 2 rings.

If you Kobe had started off with his own team he still ends up with 5 rings maybe more.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

OP still hasn't explained why he decided to compare Kobe's 5th season, when Kobe was 22 on opening day to Lebron's 4th season, when Lebron was 21 on opening day.

Oh, I know why.

Lebron averaged 31-7-7 in his 3rd season and 30-8-7 in his 5th season.
Kobe averaged 23-6-5 in his 4th season and 25-6-6 in his 6th season.

Lebron's 4th season had much worse stats than the 3rd or 5th because that was the year he started struggling with back spasms, missing several games due to the spasms and playing at under 100% for many others.

Randomly comparing Lebron's 4th season to Kobe's 5th season was the ONLY way it could look like Kobe was ever close to Lebron's development by a stat argument.

That's the kind of deception Kobestans like to use. I mean, you can say that stats don't matter, but they why include them and why go to the deceptive lengths to compare different seasons?


Here are the actual year-by-year numbers for the first 8 seasons. Lebron obviously started out much better than Kobe...when did Kobe supposedly pass him?

(all shooting percentages are eFG% just to be fair and save space)


Lebron rookie season (18):21-6-6 on 44%
Kobe rookie season (18): 8-2-1 on 48%

Lebron's 2nd season (19): 27-7-7 on 50%
Kobe's 2nd season: (19): 15-3-3 on 47%

Lebron's 3rd season (20): 31-7-7 on 51%
Kobe's 3rd season: (20): 20-5-4 on 48%

Lebron's 4th season (21): 27-7-6 on 52%
Kobe's 4th season (21): 23-6-5 on 49%

Lebron's 5th season (22): 30-8-7 on 53%
Kobe's 5th season (22): 29-6-5 on 48%

Lebron's 6th season (23): 28-8-7 on 55%
Kobe's 6th season (23): 25-6-6 on 48%

Lebron's 7th season (24): 30-7-9 on 54%
Kobe's 7th season (24): 30-7-6 on 48%

Lebron's 8th season (25): 27-8-7 on 55%
Kobe's 8th season (25): 24-6-5 on 47%

 

[MalikX]

just looking at those numbers got me aggy that nikkas still use the final mvp argument to discredit Bean's first 3

yeah he had

and Shaq had

It's literally the exact reason why Kyrie is leaving LeBron high and dry. They dug their own hole with that Yea Kobe had Shaq but Shaq had Kobe. The other greats had to play with real #2s whereas Shaq won rings with nikkas that were really #1s/Superstars. Kyrie saw that Kobe was averaging almost 30 points and still being called trash / sidekick by Bron Stans and said not me Bron Stans played themselves.

 

[camer999]

But we are talking about individual success here. Championships are the most important metric when judging great players cause that is the purpose of sports. You play to win.

If sports was just about individual stats, you think Kobe would have spent 7 years playing with Shaq? Do you think he would've complained about 2005-07 when he was averaging 35/5/5 and 32/6/5 in consecutive years?

Bruh. Kobe SACRIFICED stats for wins his entire career. I mentioned this many times but yall don't seem to understand basketball well enough to get it. But Kobe played the way he played cause it was more conducive to winning. Being a dominant mid-range player allows you to play with low post bigs like Shaq, Gasol, and Bynum. This is better for winning rings.

LeBron would rather play with 3-point shooters that space the floor. This is good for recording triple doubles and personal stats not good for winning rings.

If winning championships wasn't the metric great players were judged by, guys like Kobe would have gone about it very differently.

He had just as many touches at shaq. I'm lost, even kobes best season numbers look comparable to any bron season a tad more scoring , but less rebounds/assist. Probably less efficient too. The only finals loss to me that really counts against bron to me is 2011 cause he actually messed up I'm not making excuses about that year. That being comparing individuals is hard to do with accomplishments because since basketball is a team sport there are too many circumstances in a players legacy. Like if Kobe didn't play with shaq, or if the spurs didn't have pop, or if every player on that great player's team was also all star+. So stats and effect on the team as a whole supersedes accomplishments.

 

[camer999]

Bullshyt. Let's pull up numbers for Kobe and Lebron's 2nd and 3rd option during their respective three peats then you tell me which one you'd take.

Wade-

22.8 (46%) / 5.2 REB / 4.3 AST (3 TOV) / 1.7 STLS / 1.3 BLKS - 1st Ring

15.9 PPG (46%) / 4.6 REB / 4.8 AST (2.6 TOV) / 1.7 STL / 1 BLK - 2nd Ring

2nd option Gasol:

18.3 PPG (58%) / 10.8 REB / 2.5 AST (1.9 TOV) / .8 STLS / 2 BLKS - 1st ring

19.6 PPG (52%) / 11.1 REB / 3.5 AST (1.9 TOV) / .4 STL / 2.1 BLKS

3rd Option Bosh:

14 PPG (49%) / 7.8 REB / .6 AST (1.4 TOV) / .4 STL / 1 BLK - 1st ring

12.1 (45%) / 7.3 REB / 1.5 AST (1.2 TOV) / 1 STL / 1.6 BLK 2nd ring

3rd option Odom:

12.3 (52%) / 9.1 REB / 1.8 AST (1.7 TOV) / .7 STL / 1.3 BLK - 1st ring

9.7 (46%) / 8.6 REB / 2 AST (1.2 TOV) / .7 STL / .9 BLK 2nd ring

So you wanna tell me that Bosh and Wade's statlines are drastically superior to Odom's and Gasol's? Mind you, you also say that the stats in the East are inflated because the East is so weak and that's why Lebron's playoff numbers don't matter.

I agree with this people act like bron was playing with 06-11 Wade every year that Wade was ALSO batman on that team. Man on a side note I'd take prime Wade over pretty much everyone.