Kenny Smith | "LeBron is in my top 10 BUT he’s 10th...Kobe is not top 10" :scust:
- Thread starter ISO
- Start date
-
- Tags
- kenny smith
murksiderock
Superstar
No doubt, we can agree to disagree on this. Steph, Dray, and Klay are on record as saying playing LeBron in The Finals has been the biggest professional challenges of their careers and using other superlatives to describe what playing him is like, so while these guys are proud athletes who won't use the word "fear", it's pretty obvious how guys look at him on the floor...
Other guys who have played him in the postseason and Finals speak of him similarly. I think people look for Bron's contemporaries to be fanboys asking for autographs like Payton or Barkley, and since they don't cats use that as an impetus to say LeBron doesn't have the same factor on his opponents, but when you listen to these guys talk about him, there is a resemblance in tone and description...
And I'll definitely disagree on him not dominating like Jordan, all the evidence on deck says that he has. Again I think the fact that Mike never waffled under pressure gives him a leg up, but both guys in domination mode are similarly in results even if not similar in style. And folks get caught up on the style and how they want it to look, rather than how LeBron uniquely dominates. But I get your point though bro, I definitely love talking sports so I ainy got a problem with a difference of opinion!
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
This ignores a lot of context. He called LeBron the greatest floor raiser and although he has played with "top tier" talent for at least half his career that talent wasn't always there.
For example through both his 2012 and 2013 Finals runs his running mates faced adversity. Chris Bosh had an abdominal strain and high ankle sprain respectively in those years and D-Wade was going through knee drainage procedures, in the 2014 Finals he was a shell of himself.
In 2015, LeBron was able to sweep a 60 win Hawks team in a series where K-Love was out due to a separated shoulder and Kyrie was limited to 2 games and averaged under 25 minutes for the series. He then took a 67 win Warriors team to 6 games without Kyrie and Love in the Finals. He was playing with Matthew Dellavedova as his second option.
In 2016, K-Love had a concussion and was either out or limited. In that series his dominance was a major reason for pulling that 3-1 upset. LeBron and Kyrie's avalance raised the floor of the Cavs past a 73-9 team.
In 2017, he leads a master piece against the Pacers where he leads a 27 point come back with Kyrie and Love benched.
In 2018, he had one of the G.O.A.T. carry jobs taking the Cavs to the Finals, a team they had rebuilt 3/4th's into the season, and he averaged 34/9/9 with multiple gamewinners over the course of that run.
Also, while you can say LeBron has played with "top tier" talent for at least half of his career you can't forget the first half of his career. His Cavs teams perennially overachieved relative to talent level. He took the '06 Pistons to 7 games as an underdog, he beat the '07 Pistons as an underdog, he took the '08 Celtics to 7 games as an underdog. The '09 and '10 Cavs had no business winning over 60 games then they did it off the dominance of LeBron, shooting and team chemistry, and defense. The Cavs had reverted to lottery status as soon as he left them both times with practically the same squads just minus him.
When LeBron got drafted he Cavs immediately won 18 more games than they did the year before.
Even if you say LeBron played with "top tier" talent for half of his career many of the All-Time greats played with talented teams for their entire or the majority of their careers or walked into the league into great situations.
I'm talking about guys like Magic, Bird, Dirk, Duncan, Russell, even Kobe to an extent.
Last edited:
murksiderock
Superstar
@ISO covered my response to this...
Its not even a debate that both Kareem and LeBron have higher peaks than Kobe. So that's three guys off the rip that it doesn't take alot of thinking or research to get behind...
An argument can be made for Wilt, and I think most people would favor Wilt over Bean as far as peak dominance goes...an argument can be made for Bird, where the vote would probably be 50/50 but Bird's peak is absolutely debatably Top 5...An argument can be made for Shaq having a higher peak that I think most agree with, so that's 6 guys...
And while I see all of these guys along the same line, you can argue any one of Russell, O, Dream, Duncan, and Magic, as having at least comparable peaks to Kobe, and make the argument for any one of them over the other...
Amongst all the GOAT candidates Kobe's peak wasn't amongst the most dominant, so I don't understand the idea that "only Mike" was more dominant. I think it comes from the idea that because Kobe is "the closest thing we've seen to Mike", collectively as a culture we've talked ourselves into believing that means Kobe was better than anyone else, but they aren't synonymous and ice said this before---->people with this idea that Kobe is right next to Mike and/or only Mike is above him, aren't helping his case as much as they think they are...
Boonapalist
Superstar
Kenny Smith ranking Kobe 11 isn’t bad. But his explanation or whatever he was trying to do was horrible. But than ranking LeBron 10 is stupid as hell.
Kobe for me is in that 6-12 range while LeBron is 1-5 depending on what people value.
I could see ranking Kobe ranking as high as 7 due to his offense during his prime being so great. Especially if you bring the era into account. Part of his prime was spent in the toughest defensive era in NBA history. Also he would play good defense if he had a good team around him, unlike some offensive stars throughout history. He even played great defense on occasion when he was younger. His longevity was pretty impressive. He played at an All NBA level for about 14 or 15 seasons. His play usually improved or stayed the same during the playoffs where most players usually have a dropoff. And finally he showed he could play in a system and with other great players even if he sometimes bucked.
Now LeBron shouldn’t even need an explanation. But showed he could impact a team from the first day he stepped in the league. Before he even reached his prime he was taking the Pistons to 7 games, than beating them, and than taking Boston to 7 games. When he reached his prime the Cavs lost to Orlando and Boston but raising that team to win 60 or more games was mind boggling. Yeah the 2011 Finals is a black mark. But than reaching the finals so many consecutive years in the modern era is an impressive achievement. He did play in the lesser conference but having the focus and stamina to do that is underrated by most people. Especially when you have to deal with injuries to your 2nd or 3rd best player. He dominated the regular season especially when younger than usually raised his level of play in the playoffs. His longevity is matched by few. At his peak his combination of scoring, playmaking, and defense was damn near unprecedented in NBA history. And his ability to raise teams up is matched by few. So I don’t see how he could only be 10.
Kobe for me is in that 6-12 range while LeBron is 1-5 depending on what people value.
I could see ranking Kobe ranking as high as 7 due to his offense during his prime being so great. Especially if you bring the era into account. Part of his prime was spent in the toughest defensive era in NBA history. Also he would play good defense if he had a good team around him, unlike some offensive stars throughout history. He even played great defense on occasion when he was younger. His longevity was pretty impressive. He played at an All NBA level for about 14 or 15 seasons. His play usually improved or stayed the same during the playoffs where most players usually have a dropoff. And finally he showed he could play in a system and with other great players even if he sometimes bucked.
Now LeBron shouldn’t even need an explanation. But showed he could impact a team from the first day he stepped in the league. Before he even reached his prime he was taking the Pistons to 7 games, than beating them, and than taking Boston to 7 games. When he reached his prime the Cavs lost to Orlando and Boston but raising that team to win 60 or more games was mind boggling. Yeah the 2011 Finals is a black mark. But than reaching the finals so many consecutive years in the modern era is an impressive achievement. He did play in the lesser conference but having the focus and stamina to do that is underrated by most people. Especially when you have to deal with injuries to your 2nd or 3rd best player. He dominated the regular season especially when younger than usually raised his level of play in the playoffs. His longevity is matched by few. At his peak his combination of scoring, playmaking, and defense was damn near unprecedented in NBA history. And his ability to raise teams up is matched by few. So I don’t see how he could only be 10.
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
It’s absolutely a debate
Lebron ain’t never been this level
That same season LeBron averaged 31/7/7 to Kobe’s 35/5/5 and took a 64 win Pistons team to 7 games in the ECSF
Cavs won 50 games too split the season series against Kobe 1-1
Had better ‘lytics and finished higher in the MVP voting
They love to copy and paste quotes from players when the argument is pro kobeSo is nba players opinion the end of the conversation or not?
Saying he dominated in the 90s is absurd
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
It’s not all about the Finals. What was Wade’s numbers in the 2013 ECF?WADE
22, 5 & 6 IN 2012 FINALS
20, 5 & 4 IN 2013 FINALS
KYRIE
27, 4 & 4 IN THE 2016 FINALS
THIS IS GREAT PRODUCTION FOR SECOND
OPTIONS IN THE FINALS.
Where was Kyrie and Love in 2015?
Where was Bosh against Indiana and Boston in 2012?
Huh?
murksiderock
Superstar
It’s absolutely a debate
Lebron ain’t never been this level
I think most people feel Bron's '13 was greater, and you can argue '06 LeBron, which is maybe like the 8th-greatest version of LeBron at best, is greater than '06 Kobe...roughly the 8th-greatest LeBron year is arguably greater than what people widely consider Kobe's GOAT year...
LeBron has multiple years the best versions of Kobe dont approach, I'm not sure where people have this idea the reverse is true, particularly when you start including playoff performances...
That said, cats here shyt on stats when they don't favor their argument, but they're kept for a reason. If '06 was peak Kobe the way most of us feel it is, the only traditional numbers he has that aren't dwarfed by multiple LeBron years are PPG, FT%, and FGA. All of those would be career-high for LeBron, every other category LeBron has multiple years ahead of this version of Kobe...
Not a single analytic favors this version of Kobe over LeBron besides usage rate. Multiple LeBron years in every other category dwarf Kobe's peak productivity...
We can talk about "eye test" but we know people's eyes tend to tell them what they want to see more than what actually is. Objectively though, people, including Kobe's biggest fans, argue that '06 (or '03) was him at his absolute best. The best version of Kobe won 45 games and lost a 3-1 series lead with a comparable roster LeBron has taken to ECF and Finals multiple times (and never lost a 3-1 lead with a roster comparable to the '06 Lakers)...
It takes some serious confirmation bias to say LeBron never had a year like '06 Kobe...
Peruvian Connect
All Star
The only player who fears LeBron is Demar DeFrozen.