"Just learn to Code" they said... the TRUTH about Coding / Programming Jobs

[yung Herbie Hancock]

lol bro I dropped out of school going for my CS degree. I no longer work in that field but honestly, this isn't that difficult. And I'm saying this as a dude that hasn't touched the industry in a decade and did most of my learning outside of school:

That job description is just a bunch of keywords thrown together. HTTP and TCP/IP are protocols. You don't "learn" those. Whoever wrote that just threw them in there like they threw Network Design, Computer Science, Cloud, and Oracle in there. Just buzzwords.

My SQL/SQL are essentially the same thing. If you know databases, you know SQL. If you understand any high level programming language, understanding the basics of creating a database is cake. Download shytty MS Access and practice, less than a week later you'll get the fundamentals down before the interview. Hell you could even open up Excel and create dummy databases.

HTML/HTML5/CSS - come on. A 5th grader can figure this out.

Python/Jquery/PHP - web developer work. I mean, I would hope so if applying for a web development job. Python is usually one of the first languages people learn because its that damn quick to pick up. It's also great. PHP is scripting and if you know C/C++/C# or Java, this is almost like an extension. JQuery is also scripting. In fact they pretty much overlap the "HTML" requirement like most of the keywords here.

There is definitely some truth to the high barriers of entry for the jobs listed. And true - some of these people creating the job listings are out of their minds with the requirements they ask for. But in this case and the other, these aren't really a big deal. Again, if you are legit good at development, many of these are things you've already done. And outside of specific full architecture requirements, things you can pick up quickly with a bit of playing around.

I'm thinking about picking an easy major so I can teach myself on the side. I looked at the CS curriculum at my school and it goes all the way to Calc 3, Linear algebra, Discrete maths etc. I won't use any of those as a developer. You really only need Cal 1 and 2. Seems like the program is filled with a lot of theory tbh.

 

[goatmane]

This

But the main thing too is you have to have a PASSION for this shyt. Idk or met any brehs that had a real passion for coding / developing unless they were just some weird socially awkward breh... This some shyt you gotta be "shooting in the gym" day and night for. This can also be the reason for why a lot of black folk don't get into tech and hence why there's not a lot of black hires. Outside of trying to learn a new skill and get a well paying job I legit could care less about any of this shyt.

The pipeline. Only 10% of cs students are black

 

[patscorpio]

You don't need to learn code to make 6 figures in software.

There's customer success, user experience, project management, program management, business analysts, product manager, product owners, scrum masters...at every level. Jr, Regular, Sr, Lead, Manager, Director, Sr. Director, VP, Sr VP, C-Suite etc

I can go on and on and on and on and on.

There's at least a handful of people at my company with those roles making 6 figures. MAYBE the exception are business analysts if you take away bonuses. But they usually progress to product owners / product managers.

thats how i got there - the bolded

 

[JT-Money]

OP ain't trying to dissuade, he's being real. This ain't no get rich quick scheme. A lot of people apply and very few actually get employed. But in my own opinion, there are definitely better paths outside of programming.

If you get somebody to teach you the ropes and how to finesse these companies. It's as close as you can get to a get rich quick scheme.

I know various people myself included who started in the IT field making shyt wages. Only to see their salaries jump 40 to 60% in just 5 to 7 years. What other field can you see those kinds of salary gains?

If your a hustler and can learn every technology that's in demand enough to be proficient. You can easily get huge salary bumps every 3 or 4 years job hopping.

I don't t like the people in IT nor the work. But the amount of money you can make finessing companies is 2nd to none.

 

[LV Koopa]

I'm thinking about picking an easy major so I can teach myself on the side. I looked at the CS curriculum at my school and it goes all the way to Calc 3, Linear algebra, Discrete maths etc. I won't use any of those as a developer. You really only need Cal 1 and 2. Seems like the program is filled with a lot of theory tbh.

Yea I took all of those math classes. For most programming you will never need to use calculus. HOWEVER...

Calculus teaches you how to think. I look at it as a way to supplement your logical and problem solving skills. As there's the "Calculus theory" part which is extremely simple once you "get it", and the problem solving part that lots of people fail because it requires Algebra/Trig/a bit of Geometry to do well in. It really is butt easy to explain rate of change to a 3rd grader (that's how I introduce it). Cal 2 is the most difficult, and then Cal 3 is easier than 1 since you know everything and you are just doing it on multiple variables now.

Linear algebra IS important. Very, very important. If you want to do anything in regards to optimization you will need to know it. Luckily, imo, its also fun. I used to do a lot of this stuff in Excel.

Discrete math is probably the most valuable as it deals with sets and probability . If the program is for real, they'll probably give you some programming problems to do on collections, arrays, and matrices. If the teacher is dope you may even get into game playing, betting, stuff like that. As an aside, I find that some people who struggle with the algebra/trig types of math are extremely good at discrete math. They are very different for sure and if you are into stuff like card games, dominoes, games of chance -> discrete math is going to make sense very quickly for you.In fact I'd say if you are good at discrete math your chances at being a good developer are high. I'm not in the field and thus no expert, but I remember everyone who was good in these classes could basically understand programming problems well because they were able to separate the items from the actions needed to be implemented on them. Which almost maps to abstracting the implementation of an algorithm being separate from the data structures needed to support it.

I left CS the start of my senior year, and some of the classes were meh. But honestly - a CS degree is amazing for understanding how lots of things work. Even learning basic game theories in my AI classes was a huge help as I used to play lots of games for $$ back then. And you can ask others in here that are in the related fields, but imo, Computer Science stuff is basically just showing you how we developed computers to do stuff your brain already does. Stuff like sorting, searching, heuristics, software engineering -> just abstracts of what your mind already does. And I think once you "get" this, you realize CS is indeed lots of theory, but stuff that isn't ridiculously difficult to understand (at the undergraduate level anyway). Once you learn how to think like a programmer, solve problems, and implement different methods with a basic understanding of some of the theories behind it, you are good to go. No one is expecting you to create a 5th dimensional Turing machine, but they do expect you to understand A* search. And if you can do that, you won't be worried about learning a new programming language because you already know the logic behind what you need to implement. You're just picking up different lego blocks.

 

[okgoodnotgreat]

dropping this here to come back and read all of this.

 

[Software]

It's not about wanting a handout, it's about showing how unrealistic the industry has become / is becoming.

shyt, a good portion of these jobs not only want you to be a "Full Stack" Web Developer, they also want you to know AWS, Azure, Cloud Computing, and all these other things that are not necessarily Web Developing. It's no longer realistic. You might as well just have gone to school to be a doctor/lawyer/scientist. The barriers are getting bigger and bigger to get in the industry and this "Full Stack / I Know Everything" person every company is looking for is nonexistent.

Not really

The job listings post all that but in reality they are looking for people who are can code and know some of those things

The job listings are made by HR people who don't know about coding and just get things from engineers and managers on what they want a person to have.

Also if a job posting has a bunch of bullshyt in it that doesn't have to do with the position or generic terms then they are probably gonna be a shyt employer and they don't even know what they are looking for

 

[LV Koopa]

OH. Forgot to mention for brehs in college. I don't know what the CS equivalent is but in engineering, there is the NSBE which is for black engineers. Get in on that shyt. They have job fairs usually specifically for that organization and a lot of companies like Boeing and Raytheon and the like go to those fairs specifically because government contracting organizations get incentivized to hire black engineers. Take advantage of their job fairs and resource. I can't remember if CS major could join the NSBE also but I'm sure if they can't there is a CS equivalent.

NSBE takes any major. My chapter President was a Poli Major at one point

We can make a whole topic about NSBE but it is absolutely worth it even if you aren't in Engineering. The women...The conferences...my god I was eating good

 

[Ayo]

The women...The conferences...my god I was eating good

I had to stop going to industry conferences in general shyt was getting too hot there. it's too easy at those.

 

[Black Nate Grey]

Lol hope you graduate after the pandemic blows over. My company hasn't hired any devs since February and says they won't be hiring anyone till this virus outbreak ends.

God Willing.

the problem is, these folks that wanna "learn how to code" to get rich quick were the same people who said "fukk math' in high school.

guess what? you needed that groundwork, that understanding of logic. Ive tried to put many many brehs onto tech. You can guess the ones who took it and ran and the ones that quit after 2 weeks (of me personally tutoring them too, telling them to hmu for help etc)

there's folks with Math degrees that get jobs from Google because they can pick up CS so quick

It's not just limited to calc either.
Logic classes, Discrete Mathematics, Linear Alg, Computability (This shyt makes no fukking sense when you first get into it. Turing Machines? fukking kill me), Computer Theory, etc.
There is a reason they make us go through with all of this stuff.

Again, I'm speaking as a Computer Science student. A Software Engineering major likely has a lot more coding but probably has much of the same foundation.

If I was smart enough (I mean intelligent enough to breeze through it, I might be able to theoretically do it as I am but I'd have to work way too hard ) I'd definitely do a Math degree, can open so many doors, from Finance to Tech.

I'm thinking about picking an easy major so I can teach myself on the side. I looked at the CS curriculum at my school and it goes all the way to Calc 3, Linear algebra, Discrete maths etc. I won't use any of those as a developer. You really only need Cal 1 and 2. Seems like the program is filled with a lot of theory tbh.

Yeah, there is a shyton of theory and proofs. There is also a large amount of coding as well mind you.
Probably look into doing a Software Engineering major. I'm already too balls deep in CS.

Linear Algebra isn't that bad tbh. Solving basic Matricies can be fun.

Discrete is tough, you have to challenge the way you logically think about things.

 

[#1 pick]

These articles do a great job at convincing you that there's a huge "shortage" of programmers, developers and that there's soooo many job opportunities. They'll even tell you stuff like "a Python Developer makes avg $100k" or "C++ Developers make avg $100k" , "Mobile App developers make XXXXX), etc.

But here's what they don't tell you...

Yes, a Python, C++, Java developer can make 6 figures annually... but they leave out the part where you simply WON'T get a job JUST being a Python Developer or Java Developer.

They don't tell you that you'll MUST know and learn 3-4 different languages, 3-4 different frameworks, multiple libraries, and have 5-8 years experience in each of these.

They won't tell you that most of these Web Developer jobs are looking for "Full Stack Developers" meaning a jack of all trades. But what life will teach you is that a "jack of all trades" is a master of none. You won't be able to just be great at one language when you have to continuously spread your focus to many other languages and their frameworks.

Don't let these coding bootcamps and certificate courses fool you. The barrier to getting an actual coding job is higher than anything I've seen. Crazier than some healthcare jobs. Having a decent portfolio and the ability to make some websites/web apps simply isn't enough. They won't tell you that the tech industry requires CONSTANT learning of new languages, frameworks and technologies and that the stuff you're learning now will probably get old by the time you're able to master it (if you ever master anything).

Unlike being an electrician, technician or plumber where once you know the job, you know it. Programming/Development jobs will always have you constantly having to stay up to date, constantly feeling inadequate with new tech/software/programs, getting paid salary but putting in 60 hours or more a week (for projects that might eventually get dropped), the job WILL be your life so forget about hobbies and socializing.... Who honestly wants to live like that? The average person decided to code because they heard of the demand and the salary ranges. Most people with a "passion" for coding are the ones that have been at it since they were kids. There's a reason why there aren't many people in their 40's, 50's coding and why it's a constant revolving door of 20-30 something year olds. And I can talk about the lack of black people, but that's a whole new discussion. If anything brehs have a better chance of going into networking and cybersecurity.

This is true. We literally have said this in the IT Careers forum but once you get one, you should get the others.

 

[#1 pick]

...and if Biden/Harris wins, they will remove restrictions on H1B visas and a flood of Indians gonna snatch every job in the market.

That's not Biden/Harris, that's corp America and their lobbyists who want it.

 

[Black Nate Grey]

Yea I took all of those math classes. For most programming you will never need to use calculus. HOWEVER...

Calculus teaches you how to think. I look at it as a way to supplement your logical and problem solving skills. As there's the "Calculus theory" part which is extremely simple once you "get it", and the problem solving part that lots of people fail because it requires Algebra/Trig/a bit of Geometry to do well in. It really is butt easy to explain rate of change to a 3rd grader (that's how I introduce it). Cal 2 is the most difficult, and then Cal 3 is easier than 1 since you know everything and you are just doing it on multiple variables now.

Linear algebra IS important. Very, very important. If you want to do anything in regards to optimization you will need to know it. Luckily, imo, its also fun. I used to do a lot of this stuff in Excel.

Discrete math is probably the most valuable as it deals with sets and probability . If the program is for real, they'll probably give you some programming problems to do on collections, arrays, and matrices. If the teacher is dope you may even get into game playing, betting, stuff like that. As an aside, I find that some people who struggle with the algebra/trig types of math are extremely good at discrete math. They are very different for sure and if you are into stuff like card games, dominoes, games of chance -> discrete math is going to make sense very quickly for you.In fact I'd say if you are good at discrete math your chances at being a good developer are high. I'm not in the field and thus no expert, but I remember everyone who was good in these classes could basically understand programming problems well because they were able to separate the items from the actions needed to be implemented on them. Which almost maps to abstracting the implementation of an algorithm being separate from the data structures needed to support it.

I left CS the start of my senior year, and some of the classes were meh. But honestly - a CS degree is amazing for understanding how lots of things work. Even learning basic game theories in my AI classes was a huge help as I used to play lots of games for $$ back then. And you can ask others in here that are in the related fields, but imo, Computer Science stuff is basically just showing you how we developed computers to do stuff your brain already does. Stuff like sorting, searching, heuristics, software engineering -> just abstracts of what your mind already does. And I think once you "get" this, you realize CS is indeed lots of theory, but stuff that isn't ridiculously difficult to understand (at the undergraduate level anyway). Once you learn how to think like a programmer, solve problems, and implement different methods with a basic understanding of some of the theories behind it, you are good to go. No one is expecting you to create a 5th dimensional Turing machine, but they do expect you to understand A* search. And if you can do that, you won't be worried about learning a new programming language because you already know the logic behind what you need to implement. You're just picking up different lego blocks.

I definitely need to brush up on my Discrete, I feel like I missed somethings there.

 

[Rev Leon Lonnie Love]

What this thread has taught me is that there are a lot of tech brehs on this forum

and given the stats, most are likely CACs and indians



As for you @Dap Fishin , im sick and tired of your defeatist mentality, You said the same shyt in the Official Software thread and I guess the replies didnt mean shyt to you huh

Yeah I'm done with IT/Programming... This shyt is a never ending process, forever changing, overrun by Indians, cacs and Chinese, barely any black people, and these jobs have the most unrealistic qualifications and requirements. And to top it off most entry level positions are less than what I can make driving trucks. I can't afford to waste anymore time.

hang in there breh

Idk man... I been trying. Idk how brehs do it. Just when I finally understand some shyt, some more stuff gets thrown my way and I'm lost again. I've been at it for 2 years and it's always the same feeling of inadequacy. Like the more I know, the more I don't know. This (and I'm sure other STEM fields) feels like I'll never reach a point where I can just master shyt or at least be 80-90% comfortable with it all. I do a lot of research. It seems like no one ever truly masters anything in programming. Even guys 10+ years in say there's a lot they don't know.

I blame a lot of these articles and salary sites, etc for overhyping Programming and Software Engineering. They all say things like "Python Developers make 100k average" , "Java Developers make xxxx" , "C++ makes x amount" but what they DON'T tell you is "oh by the way, you'll have to learn at least 3 or 4 of these languages if you ever want a job." That and you still gotta know some cloud computing, networking, or systems admin. Plus you gotta know some JavaScript and Typescript and React and jQuery, and [add random library/framework here]. Then when you're finished learning all that and have years of experience working with each of these things you can apply for a job that you won't even be considered for cuz an Indian, Chinese or cac will take it. This field wants you to be a jack of all trades, but a jack of all trades is a master of none.

I just don't wanna waste any time if this is going nowhere. In other fields, you finish training and get started right away whether as an apprentice or entry-level whatever... seems like even with all training and practice considered it's an uphill battle in the IT/programming world. At the end of the day I just wanna good paying job where I can live good and eventually start up my own businesses and work for myself. If anything I'll just make money elsewhere and have freelance programmers work for me and create some shyt.

those job requirements are always an employer's wishlist. None of their current employees have 100% of their requirements. They know this too. All they care about is how many check boxes you can tick and how willing are you to keep learning on the job and pick up on other things you dont know yet. Thats the upside of this field, you get to be paid while learning to master a tool/language on the job and then take that skill with you to a new job. Just apply to whatever post you feel is interesting to you. The interview is where they get to see who has the most potential to be worth being payed by them.

It is true, however, that if you're black they will undermine your skillset on paper until they see you in action. This is because of the historic believe by cacs that black people arernt as sharp when it comes to computers and critical thinking. What they dont realise is that it is because most black people are just never exposed to these things early enough like them so we only have much less time to be proficient in the same things as them. Take any black person vs white who start from the same point with equal resources and drive, then I can guarantee you their skillset will be more or less identical by the time they get a job. Im willing to bet the black guy will be slighly more skilled because he knows he will have to be better than his peers to even get the same amount of respect.

I say keep up with your goal. You can find means to have a side hustle so you wont grow frustrated while u wait for your big break.

@YBG613 I'm trying breh... I just recently found interest in C# and Microsoft themselves have their courses/tutorials on it so I'm just getting my feet wet with it.. time will tell...

I definitely salute you brehs in here that stick with this programming stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only one who went through this fight or flight stage during the learning process.

Again, If you really want this, you'll grind and realize its a never ending learning process. If you dont like the idea of constantly sharpening your iron, then I dont know what to tell you. Yes, its really hard to get on as a black man, but if you dont become the dude who challenges the status quo, who is it supposed to be then?

 

[#1 pick]

It is hard breh... People who make coding sound easy are being dishonest. If it was actually easy, everyone would do it and excel at it. I know some JS, C#, Ruby, PHP but nothing to write home about. Remember these are programming LANGUAGES. It's the equivalent of somebody needing to learn Mandarin, Creole, Spanish, French in order to get a job. And even after the fact, these jobs are still hard to get... I can post a bunch of job postings from Dice or Indeed and show y'all just how much they require of you to know and experience to have. It's NOT easy. Please stop saying that cuz there's brehs out there that go into it thinking it is and get met with a rude awakening.

You can google or youtube "can't find job web developer" , "can't find job programmer" and you'll see the amount of people with great resumes/portfolios struggling just to get their foot in the door. People saying stuff like "all you need is to find that one job and once you're in, you're IN" are straight lying breh.

You need more than just one job. To need experience because you are mainly using tools that intel these skills and languages. I would really focus on the skills more than the languages.

Adobe Creative Suite
Sitecore
If you are in the gov't or internal facing, SharePoint
etc.

There is so much to do.