Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

[SirReginald]

Chono and his family. I guess genetics truly skip a generation.

 

[Jmare007]

Seems like Hashimoto and Chono got their kids mixec up

 

[Honga Ciganesta]

NJPW DESTRUCTION

Jr Heavyweight Championship: Kushida vs Taguchi



Styles/Tama vs Naito/Ibushi



Goto vs Makabe



TANAHASHI VS SHIBATA



IWGP Intercontinental Title: Nakamura vs Fale:

 

[Jmare007]

Tana vs Okada was great - although they are really losing me with these strikes exchanges that lead to nowhere and have little to no buildup - but just saw that da Meltz gave them the full five

I love Tanahashi but at this rate he's one of the most overrated dudes in the last 15 years if you go by what Dave preaches about the guy Why can't he "just" be great?

I'm I alone on this one brehs?

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Tana vs Okada was great - although they are really losing me with these strikes exchanges that lead to nowhere and have little to no buildup - but just saw that da Meltz gave them the full five

I love Tanahashi but at this rate he's one of the most overrated dudes in the last 15 years if you go by what Dave preaches about the guy Why can't he "just" be great?

I'm I alone on this one brehs?

Dave ia going ham with the stars, but the only reason this bothers people is because most of us got into the smark scene in the early 00's where five stars were a rarity (hadnt been a US one since '97 until Joe/Punk 2 and shyt) and thus people grew accostumed to five star matches being this big rare super special deal, where if you look at the 90's he was throwing 5 stars around at damn near everything Misawa did AJPW in general.

Tana overrated? Why does everyone use Misawa's 20+ 5 star ratings and accept Meltz gospel that he's the goat but he's going too far with the Tana praise because he has 4?

 

[Jmare007]

Dave ia going ham with the stars, but the only reason this bothers people is because most of us got into the smark scene in the early 00's where five stars were a rarity (hadnt been a US one since '97 until Joe/Punk 2 and shyt) and thus people grew accostumed to five star matches being this big rare super special deal, where if you look at the 90's he was throwing 5 stars around at damn near everything Misawa did AJPW in general.

Tana overrated? Why does everyone use Misawa's 20+ 5 star ratings and accept Meltz gospel that he's the goat but he's going too far with the Tana praise because he has 4?

Should've put "Dave and his minions" A lot people new to NJPW treats Tana like he is god thanks to all the praise he gets. shyt, I've seen people talk about him like he's a big time draw it's that bad. Again, I love Tana, been following him since 06' and I'm happy he was able to turn New Japan around but I'm fine with having him being a great wrestler. Not a GOAT candidate.


The Misawa case is rather simple to me. He got all those snowflakes because the matches were that damn good. If anything, there's a couple that don't have 5* that make no sense (like 1/20/97). The only one that makes you really scratch your head is the Kobayashi match, that even for 80's standard ain't THAT good. And All Japan post-1/20/97 does get some flack and doesn't have near the consensus that the previous years have. People do put against Misawa and Kobashi the evolution to more head-droping, but the thing is, his peak from 90-97 is almost untouchable and Tanahashi is nowhere fukking near that.

Like, New Japan heavy's matches from today are mostly great but they clearly don't have the same complexity that early King's Road. Most people tend to appreciate more what Misawa and company did in those 7 years than what Tana and company have been doing for the past 5-6 because they see more substance (and just plain like it more) in what the 4 Pillars were doing.



PS: Have you checked your PM breh?

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Should've put "Dave and his minions" A lot people new to NJPW treats Tana like he is god thanks to all the praise he gets. shyt, I've seen people talk about him like he's a big time draw it's that bad. Again, I love Tana, been following him since 06' and I'm happy he was able to turn New Japan around but I'm fine with having him being a great wrestler. Not a GOAT candidate.


The Misawa case is rather simple to me. He got all those snowflakes because the matches were that damn good. If anything, there's a couple that don't have 5* that make no sense (like 1/20/97). The only one that makes you really scratch your head is the Kobayashi match, that even for 80's standard ain't THAT good. And All Japan post-1/20/97 does get some flack and doesn't have near the consensus that the previous years have. People do put against Misawa and Kobashi the evolution to more head-droping, but the thing is, his peak from 90-97 is almost untouchable and Tanahashi is nowhere fukking near that.

Like, New Japan heavy's matches from today are mostly great but they clearly don't have the same complexity that early King's Road. Most people tend to appreciate more what Misawa and company did in those 7 years than what Tana and company have been doing for the past 5-6 because they see more substance (and just plain like it more) in what the 4 Pillars were doing.



PS: Have you checked your PM breh?

I get that, but people are acting like Dave is going insane with the Tana praise, when he isn't really. Dude has just happened to give four of his matches dem flakes and people are acting like the world is imploding.

And I do legit feel like it has a done to do with a past versus present thing. As in, Dave pretty much annointing Misawa the goat led people who were just entering the world of tape trading to associate that very style and scale with being "perfect", and for some reason considered one mans opinions to be objective. Now that he's clearly a huge Tana (and Okada) mark, and the current NJ style (which does have a kings road base to it) but isn't that exactly, and people are acting like he's going insane or those flakes don't mean as much anymore or something ridiculous when in reality, they've always just been the opinions of one breh and what he marked for.

I just really think what's happening with Tana now in terms of opinion is more a case of people trying to hold Meltz to some sort of rubric because so many trotted out his shyt as facts for so long. And it's such a stylistic thing. Tana & Co aren't TRYING to do Kings Road, but that doesn't mean that a great Kings Road match is the only way to have a great match (which I know you know but still). In my book, Misawa probably has half as many five star matches as Dave gave him. I absolutely wouldn't give Tana-Shibata 5, but Tana-Ishii from last year I absolutely fukking would.

Personally? I can find some Kings Road stuff an absolute chore, and some of those matches really didn't need to go that long. What I love about the NJ stuff now is they're pretty much doing Kings Road from Concentrate. They're having these super tight, well laid out, super crisp matches that don't go overblown and are loaded with small callbacks and on the fly innovations.

And Tana kinda HAS to be in GOAT conversations, as he's the best of his time right now which is pretty much the only qualification. I think it says a lot that he's had this flurry of incredible matches only in the last two years when a great worker joined the company (MiSu), others became world class out of nowhere (Okada, Ishii), and a great generational rival who he was supposed to already have a bevy of classics with came back (Shibata).

Dude was really out there for years elevating the fukk out of the people around him. Now he has other dudes who can go and we're seeing the greatness as a result. I'd even go as far as to say a match like the 2013 defense against Machine Gun was better than any match he had before 2012 barring the G1 Final against Kojima and the 2007 title loss to Nagata.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

And yeah I'm following the PMs

 

[Jmare007]

I get that, but people are acting like Dave is going insane with the Tana praise, when he isn't really. Dude has just happened to give four of his matches dem flakes and people are acting like the world is imploding.

And I do legit feel like it has a done to do with a past versus present thing. As in, Dave pretty much annointing Misawa the goat led people who were just entering the world of tape trading to associate that very style and scale with being "perfect", and for some reason considered one mans opinions to be objective. Now that he's clearly a huge Tana (and Okada) mark, and the current NJ style (which does have a kings road base to it) but isn't that exactly, and people are acting like he's going insane or those flakes don't mean as much anymore or something ridiculous when in reality, they've always just been the opinions of one breh and what he marked for.

I just really think what's happening with Tana now in terms of opinion is more a case of people trying to hold Meltz to some sort of rubric because so many trotted out his shyt as facts for so long. And it's such a stylistic thing. Tana & Co aren't TRYING to do Kings Road, but that doesn't mean that a great Kings Road match is the only way to have a great match (which I know you know but still). In my book, Misawa probably has half as many five star matches as Dave gave him. I absolutely wouldn't give Tana-Shibata 5, but Tana-Ishii from last year I absolutely fukking would.

Personally? I can find some Kings Road stuff an absolute chore, and some of those matches really didn't need to go that long. What I love about the NJ stuff now is they're pretty much doing Kings Road from Concentrate. They're having these super tight, well laid out, super crisp matches that don't go overblown and are loaded with small callbacks and on the fly innovations.

And Tana kinda HAS to be in GOAT conversations, as he's the best of his time right now which is pretty much the only qualification. I think it says a lot that he's had this flurry of incredible matches only in the last two years when a great worker joined the company (MiSu), others became world class out of nowhere (Okada, Ishii), and a great generational rival who he was supposed to already have a bevy of classics with came back (Shibata).

Dude was really out there for years elevating the fukk out of the people around him. Now he has other dudes who can go and we're seeing the greatness as a result. I'd even go as far as to say a match like the 2013 defense against Machine Gun was better than any match he had before 2012 barring the G1 Final against Kojima and the 2007 title loss to Nagata.

To me, today's New Japan is so completely different from 90's All Japan that I can't even compare them. I enjoy them both but tend to prefer what Baba's boys were doing. I mean, NJPW has nothing that touches the Jumbo/Misawa gang wars. shyt, current New Japan has nothing that touches the NJ/WAR feud.

But hey, if you like Tana's style that much, that's fine. But I can't put him in a GOAT conversation yet. He has ways to go before I put him in Choshu, Fujinami, Hashimoto, Jumbo, Tenryu, Fujiwara, Misawa and Kawada territory. Dude is still young so I have no problem waiting for him to make a real case.

I completely agree with your points on Meltzer. I think it goes to shows us how availability of content makes it so hard to find consensus. There's no doubt that if this current New Japan run happened in the late 90's there would be way less backlash to it. But I don't agree that Tana's and New Japan's scrutiny has to do with Meltzer himself. I think that's more directed to people that read him and still hold his opinion as gospel and that start making the same insane claims like the Okada/Tanashi series is the GOAT, or that Tana is a draw, or that New Japan is doing amazing (completely missing Dave's point, people don't get that he's talking about quality, not quality AND drawing) or that the past 2 G-1's are the GOAT tournaments ever, etc...I'm fine with disagreeing with Dave's wild claims - he clearly loves NJ's current product - but having so many people repeat those wild claims end up rubbing me and other people the wrong way. It's hard not to find Tana overrated when not just 1 dude is going overboard with his praise, but a bunch of new people that come out of the nowhere

And Kobashi is a better example than Misawa, imo. Dude has just as many (maybe even more) 5* matches than Sacho but there's way less consensus about him. And that's a guy Dave liked way more than the other 4 Pillars.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

The Tanahashi praise has always beeb quizzical to me. Hes good but he strikes me as a "guy who always works with the guy" type.



Did I just call him a B+ player?

 

[FRIED MASON]

If Tanahashi is a B+ player, who's the A+ players in NJPW?

 

[23Barrettcity]

How great are njpw house show numbers ? I hear meltzer shytting on wwe house show figures and saying how great njpw are

 

[Jmare007]

When has Meltzer said that ?

New Japan house shows are held in very small buildings, so comparing them to WWE's makes no sense.

 

[TrueEpic08]

How great are njpw house show numbers ? I hear meltzer shytting on wwe house show figures and saying how great njpw are

Meltzer doesn't usually shyt on the numbers, for the most part (at least, not that I've heard lately. Payouts, on the other hand...), but on how they evaluate house show draws. Basically, the A-circuit headliner (almost always Cena) gets a massive advantage in attendance and gross figures due to the cities and venues that circuit runs compared to the B-circuit (whose most notable headliner last year was Daniel Bryan). So, for example, when he discusses attendance figures at house shows and how they're used as criteria for evaluating talent, he's usually getting at WWE-borne hypocrisy and willful blindness about how the whole deal works (notably, that evaluating draws can be skewed by the fact that cards aren't finalized when tickets go on sale, so "drawing" can't really be ascertained in any concrete manner). This isn't to say that the figures are good in any objective or comparative manner, but from what I hear, that's often not Meltzer's greatest concern with the house show deal.

Like @Jmare007 said, comparing NJPW's house situation with WWE's really can't be done, because the way in which they do their circuits are almost totally different.

The Tanahashi praise has always beeb quizzical to me. Hes good but he strikes me as a "guy who always works with the guy" type.



Did I just call him a B+ player?

I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is interesting that Tanahashi only started getting all of this acclaim within the last 2-3 years, which coincides with the beginning of the most recent influx of great talents into the company. Whether that says more about what was around Tanahashi or Tanahashi himself, I don't know. But it is interesting to think about.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

Meltzer doesn't usually shyt on the numbers, for the most part (at least, not that I've heard lately. Payouts, on the other hand...), but on how they evaluate house show draws. Basically, the A-circuit headliner (almost always Cena) gets a massive advantage in attendance and gross figures due to the cities and venues that circuit runs compared to the B-circuit (whose most notable headliner last year was Daniel Bryan). So, for example, when he discusses attendance figures at house shows and how they're used as criteria for evaluating talent, he's usually getting at WWE-borne hypocrisy and willful blindness about how the whole deal works (notably, that evaluating draws can be skewed by the fact that cards aren't finalized when tickets go on sale, so "drawing" can't really be ascertained in any concrete manner). This isn't to say that the figures are good in any objective or comparative manner, but from what I hear, that's often not Meltzer's greatest concern with the house show deal.

Like @Jmare007 said, comparing NJPW house situation with WWE's really can't be done, because the way in which they do their circuits are almost totally different.





I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is interesting that Tanahashi only started getting all of this acclaim within the last 2-3 years, which coincides with the beginning of the most recent influx of great talents into the company. Whether that says more about what was around Tanahashi or Tanahashi himself, I don't know. But it is interesting to think about.

Tana steps his game up for the bigger matches but he in general always came off very "meh" to me. I always liken him to Cena in that way except I dont think he's rammed down our throats nearly as much.

I didnt see why Okada got his sudden push when he did but I got on board quickly. Nakamura too though it took longer than Okada, he is my absolute favorite in puroresu. Then I look at Tana and I see someone who def appeals to women and kids (how is NJPW's kid demographic anyway ) but for purists that grew up on sports entertainment, lucha, 90's AJPW and Southern US wrestling. Tana doesnt hit me nearly hard enough on ANY of those fronts.