James Brown is the father of hip hop, so who is the mother ?

[IllmaticDelta]

There is no rap/Hip Hop industry without Sylvia Robinson. In essence, it is her creation.

The Rise and Fall of Hip-Hop's First Godmother: Sugar Hill Records' Sylvia Robinson
From the first rap single to sell a million to the first scratching on record, Sylvia Robinson created the template for hip-hop’s world domination. Her genius for production built an empire. Her bad business burned it down.

By Dan Charnas
10/17/2019

In 1960, a 25-year-old performer-songwriter named Sylvia Vanderpool Robinson -- then of the guitar-and-vocal duo Mickey & Sylvia, known for their million-selling “Love Is Strange” -- walked into a recording studio in Manhattan to work with a New Orleans artist named Joe Jones on a tune he called “You Talk Too Much.”

Sylvia Robinson walked out a record producer.

She did not receive credit for the session, one she claimed that she had run on behalf of Jones’ label, Morris Levy’s Roulette Records. If she had, it might have cemented her as the first-ever black and female independent record producer to have a top 10 pop hit. (The song peaked at No. 3 on the Billboard Hot 100.)

Instead, Sylvia would become famous for another breakthrough: conceiving and producing the first successful rap record. Forty years ago, in the summer of 1979, “Rapper’s Delight” by The Sugarhill Gang transformed the street culture of hip-hop into a commercially viable art form. It was not only the first rap single to conquer the radio and the charts -- topping Billboard’s R&B tally and reaching No. 37 on the Hot 100 -- but the first to sell over a million. After facing criticism from hip-hop’s pioneers for fabricating The Sugarhill Gang from three wannabe rappers, Robinson filled out her roster with genuine acts: Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five, The Funky 4 + 1, The Treacherous Three. Within a few years, she had built one of the top independent labels in America, Sugar Hill Records, along with her husband, Joe Robinson.

Her success with Sugar Hill was historic. She’s arguably one of the most consequential producers and label owners of all time. Her business opened the doors for all the independents that followed from Def Jam to Top Dawg, and her music pioneered distinct concepts that set the template for hip-hop’s entire creative arc. From party rocking, to the DJ as musician, to social consciousness, Sugar Hill made everything possible for today’s hip-hop stars.

She was celebrated as “the Queen of Rap,” but success did not erase the slighting of her earliest production work, which included “It’s Gonna Work Out Fine,” the 1961 hit that earned Ike & Tina Turner their first Grammy Award nomination. “I paid for the session, taught Tina the song; that’s me playing guitar,” she said in a 1981 interview with trade magazine Black Radio Exclusive. Production credit went instead to Sue Records owner Juggy Murray.

The Rise and Fall of Hip-Hop's First Godmother: Sugar Hill Records' Sylvia Robinson

she's the mother of the hiphop industry/business but not of any of the core 4 elements/musically

 

[get these nets]

You have to understand that dj existed before hip hop,

Thanks, but I'm well familiar with the origins of hip hop. I've stated pretty much the details and chronology, as we both see it, in multiple threads.
More importantly, I've made several threads and posts with the actual pioneers stating the details and chronology.

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/dj-kay-slay-interviews-hip-hop-pioneers-whats-the-science.727312/

I called Donald Trump a TLR poster earlier because he exhibits the same reluctance to accept facts as plenty of people on this forum. Trump says he won despite the facts, people want to credit someone other than Herc, despite the facts.
It is what it is.

=====
For the sake of this discussion/comparison, I was calling JB the figurative father. I really wanted to hear the names and arguments people would make for the mother.

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

The FatBack Band was the first hip hop "record album" made into a "record" 1979 before Sugar Hill...

The song "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" is often considered to be the first commercially released rap single, having shipped just a week before The Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" in October 1979.

Sugar Hill broke grounds as the First ever hip hop label and also black owned label.

Rap existed years prior to it before being on records/albums label. Her roster broke new grounds and help push hip hop nationally . Even singer Angie Stone was in the group Sequence ,one of the first hip hop female rap group years before Salt & Pepa.

Without Sylvia Hip Hop and or Rap music would have still continued to exist cause rap music was out there locally within NYC. it's just that she made the leap to put out the first "rap" label to put out records. She deserve her hall of fame.

Read the previous post I posted explaining further..

The difference between the debut of "King Tim III" versus "Rapper's Delight"/Sugarhill Records is like night and day.

"King Tim III" in actuality was a song by an r&b/funk group, the Fatback Band. Bill Curtis and the crew did have the foresight to include an emcee (King Tim III) on a number of bridges in the song. It does legitimately receive the credit for being the first commercial release to feature what we would later refer to as "rappers" during what was the beginning of Hip Hop (for us AARP b-boys from that era, they were all "emcees").

But calling "King Tim III" a rap record would be like calling "Friends" by Jody Watley a rap record just because it featured Rakim on the breaks.

"Rapper's Delight" was the first single that actually featured only emcees (like the NYC parties and cassettes we listened to at that time).

"RD" featured the bass break from Chic's "Good Times," which in the parks, clubs, roller rinks of 1979, could not have been a bigger dance groove and favorite track to cut up on the turntables by deejays. This is why "RD" is one of the biggest selling singles of all time, regardless of genre. It signaled an emerging cultural revolution.

And Sylvia Robinson was the first musician and businessperson, to recognize that a new culture was emerging. Bobby Robinson (no relation) of Enjoy Records was right after her. But even after their efforts,most of the other rap records in the 1979 -1984 era were one-off by labels that also focused on other genres (Jive, Profile, Tommy Boy, Sleeping Bag, Select).

Now, the Fatback Band may not be remembered much for "King Tim III," but their classic "I Found Lovin,'" has become an anthem at virtually every Black block party/bbq/wedding for over three decades. And for those Big Apple clubhead natives who recall Bentley's, The Silver Shadow, The Red Parrot, Leviticus, Roseland, Encore's in Queens and The Paradise Garage, "I Found Lovin'" is just as historically cherished as "Rapper's Delight."

 

[Houston911]

Great thread

 

[IllmaticDelta]

James Brown the Father of hip hop? Ehhhh...I don't know about that one fam. For one, he had some pretty negative things to say about hip hop back in the day. "All you rappers get off my tip!" was one of the things he said. If he was the Father he was an unintentional father and was mad at the chick for forcing him to be a Dad and pay child support. Secondly, yes there was a time when EVERYBODY was sampling Brown. But that started around the mid 80's. Hip hop had been around a good 13 years or so before that.

James Brown was already the sound of HipHop since the early 1970s before HipHop had a name/hiphop's first MUSICAL golden era

 

[Bolzmark]

James Brown was already the sound of HipHop since the early 1970s before HipHop had a name/hiphop's first MUSICAL golden era

While his music was played at hip hop parties in the 70’s, it was the 80’s when his music was actually incorporated into the biggest hip hop records being released thru sampling. Still, you are right in that he is a MAJOR influence to the culture. Just didn’t like the stance he took on hip hop when his music was being sampled.

 

[KingJay]

Honestly I think Ali was more important to hip hop than James Brown. Gil too

 

[old pig]

Debbie Harry from Blondie.
Hip Hop is bi-racial !

Spoiler

lol...stole my answer

 

[Child_Of_God]

Kool Herc is the father of Hip Hop because he actually created the genre.

James Brown was simply a influence in it’s creation.

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

she's the mother of the hiphop industry/business but not of any of the core 4 elements/musically

I tend to think that such generalizations ("The Godfather of this...The Godmother of that...") are irrelevant because creativity tends to move forward on a influencer continuum (at least until the past few years).

And its quite alright to say that the core influences of the mid-1970s black groove music culture that B-boy/Hip Hop culture derived from were overwhelmingly male-driven. The culture itself was super, young male-driven

It was all about the beat. 99 percent of the drummers, bass players, keyboardists, guitarists, percussionists who created those "beat breaks" were upper teenage boys and men. It would be difficult to cite a another dominant female musical influence on the development of Hip Hop as we've known it. Sylvia
Robinson looms large over every aspect of the culture -- including as a producer/a&r talent scout.

Quiet as its kept, many teen girls/young women of that disco/post-disco era flat-out rejected the culture ("that's for hard rocks" would be the observation at the time).

An 18 year-old Bronx/Harlem b-boy listening to his Flash and Busy Bee tapes in 1979 would likely be complimented by his 18 year-old girl dedicated to her Natalie Cole, Phyllis Hyman and Angela Bofill collection (with her Michael Jackson Off The Wall and Right On! posters dominating her bedroom walls).

 

[IllmaticDelta]

While his music was played at hip hop parties in the 70’s, it was the 80’s when his music was actually incorporated into the biggest hip hop records being released thru sampling. Still, you are right in that he is a MAJOR influence to the culture. Just didn’t like the stance he took on hip hop when his music was being sampled.

Yeah, because that's when samplers came along.









Brown didn't necessarily hate hiphop; he was mad that his sh1t was getting sampled and he wasn't making any money off it + plus he was from an older generation that didn't "get" sampling. He still ended up working with Baamabatta

 

[NormanConnors]

Off top Curtis Mayfield and Teena Marie

Pops/moms

I don't think there is a legit mother of hip hop tho

 

[Wear My Dawg's Hat]

Disagree to a degree about the "with or without" part.
People over a certain age will remember,and understand, when rap was being written off as a phase or trend.
Part of the reason it was viewed like that, was because other music genres or styles had blown up, and then tossed aside by youth culture or by the mainstream.
Disco took over the mainstream for a few years, and then it was discarded. It still existed, among the circles that created it, but it went dormant for a while until it evolved into something else.

I think that without the music being out on wax, that rapping might have died out. It was part of youth culture and as the main people got older, the younger kids might have gravitated towards something else. People outside of metro NYC would have not been exposed to it, and it might have stayed a local thing....like GoGo in metro DC area.

I also think that if RUNDMC didn't emerge as national, and international superstars, that rap would have phased out to an extent, Record labels seeing the global youth response to rap is what lead them to sign more acts, and for people to create their own labels.

All great points.

"Rapping" or "emceeing" could have died until Sylvia and Joe Robinson figured out a way to monetize the vocalization,

Hell, in the birthplace of the culture, Black-owned, top-rated radio station WBLS once marketed themselves as "rap-free."

And in the pre-Run-DMC development era from 1977 - 1983, the clear stars of NYC Hip Hop were the deejays: Grandmaster Flash, Bambaataa, Kool Herc, Grand Wizard Theodore, The Disco Twins, Infinity Machine. It was a party-based culture. However, nobody could really figure out a way to monetize the deejays like they could the rappers, so the turntables aspect of Hip Hop receded to the background, re-emerging during the mixtape era 15 years later with Kay Slay, Clue, Ron G, etc. And the EDM/rave white scene really figured out how to center the deejay.

 

[Mtt]

James Brown was already the sound of HipHop since the early 1970s before HipHop had a name/hiphop's first MUSICAL golden era

To be fair, I see where your coming from with the cool references that I respect. I think folks generally speaking think it was james brown and then folks "Skip" other elements of hip hop culture and people making it into a "culture" a movement that made them different than folks outside that circle
Again you would have to ask yourself who were the dj's taking james brown and other music and creating "break beats" the part of these songs the dj's liked and Breakdancers dancers danced to.

Who were the first generation Breakdancers, the first generation graffiti and MC/Rappers? Why is the term B-Boys used in hip hop ?

You see my point?
Hip hop is taking what is already existed making a creation into their own by taking different elements.
Dj's existed before hip hop,rhyming spoken word existed before hip hop,writing on walls existed going back to ancient times.

As I stated earlier, james brown records as AND other records was used in early 70's by some dj's who crafting "break beats" cause hip hop don't have a defined sound.mc's/rappers and dj's would play funk then Disco then electro and whatever at the time.


hence why names like Grandmaster Caz,Afrika Bambatta, Grand Wizard Theodore, Dj Disco Wiz,Kool Herc and many other dj were often mentioned and of course graffiti artists and Breakdancers and the word BBoy came into existence to existence concentrated on early nyc particularly the Bronx. All early to mid 70's.

That's why you won't find "hip hop" culture not just rapping that pre-dates the time period I wrote. The information and history is easy to find.most folks from back then are still alive.

 

[Mtt]

All great points.

"Rapping" or "emceeing" could have died until Sylvia and Joe Robinson figured out a way to monetize the vocalization,

Hell, in the birthplace of the culture, Black-owned, top-rated radio station WBLS once marketed themselves as "rap-free."

And in the pre-Run-DMC development era from 1977 - 1983, the clear stars of NYC Hip Hop were the deejays: Grandmaster Flash, Bambaataa, Kool Herc, Grand Wizard Theodore, The Disco Twins, Infinity Machine. It was a party-based culture. However, nobody could really figure out a way to monetize the deejays like they could the rappers, so the turntables aspect of Hip Hop receded to the background, re-emerging during the mixtape era 15 years later with Kay Slay, Clue, Ron G, etc. And the EDM/rave white scene really figured out how to center the deejay.

I respect folks that provide references like you did. Salute. I will always have respect for Sylvia Robinson despite whatever issues with contracts dealings with rappers.
My point is rap would have continued including the culture of hip hop cause Breakdancers,graffiti artists and dj's in my opinion were loving what they do. The irony is the DJ lost power not radio dj's but dj's that perform with rappers lost power as rappers became center stage and push to the side financially the rapper was pushed to the front and show money the rappers made their share and why have a dj next to you. Hence why you only see rappers and they don't put dj's next to them on albums or titles. They will just hire a tour dj only.
Let me get to my point .

Tapes were the main revenue for late 70's early 80's. 1979 records albums being made and the yes you are right sugar Hill and happy they were black were pivot moving rap forward. As times went by graffiti, Breakdancers, Unfortunately were no longer on the same platform as everyone want s to rap to make money and unfortunately mainstream tried to put those elements of hip hop on the map with movies etc but those elements stayed underground. I agree with all you said.reapect