Is Dr. Dre at the root of all the destructive trends in rap? EDIT: Just the music, not the ills of the Black community
- Thread starter FeverPitch2
- Start date
Justin Nitsuj
Superstar
People like Jerry Heller....
FeverPitch2
Superstar
Am I lying on Dre?
Did he not have the things I mentioned in his music?
How is this shallow or stupid?
I'm wondering if you can think beyond your emotions and speak to the topic because right now you sound your dinner tonight came from a human breast.
FeverPitch2
Superstar
NWA existed before Jerry Heller came into the picture.
Jerry Heller was working at Macola Records when he met Eazy E.
Macola Records was primarily a blues label in the 80's.
Artist like Z.Z. Hill were signed to Macola.
At the time, Ruthless, like every other rap and Black dance artist in L.A., was having their records pressed and distributed by Macola Records.
Heller was working there because his A-list music days were over. He was hungry.
Heller noticed noticed how many records they were moving and was curious.
Macola Records: An Oral History
The pressing plant and label was a key player in the birth of gangsta rap.
daily.redbullmusicacademy.com
Now. Who else was controlling Dre?
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Dre just made the beats, he didn't write the lyrics. And it was the lyrics that made NWA so dangerous.
And if we want to focus on lyrics, it's Ice Cube.
Late 60's/early 70's - To Avoid arguments - Let's just call the origin of hip hop - The Bronx Park Movement.
There's enough beef between Herc and the other BX dudes, as well as cats in BK saying they was doing the same thing, won't even get into Dj. Flowers... Nobody wants to pay all the OG's to show up and talk about it, so the history will always be in dispute.
What's not in dispute, was according to the OG's at the time, there were gangs/crews that made up the hip hop audience and performers. There might have been violence at the venue, outside of the venue, but it wasn't part of the "music", because the "music" wasn't even a thing yet. It was primarily a dance party with dj interactions and live performances. As has been said before, the idea of capturing hip hop as a recording was like trying to capture a basketball game and selling that. It was about being there, not the artifact. (Lemme get off my soap box)
So there have always been "gangsters" in hip hop. Moving in silence, behind the scenes, funding albums, washing drug money, extorting artists, owning the clubs...Very much like Reggae/Dancehall Reggae.
Hip Hop was never some shiny happy sun people music coming up from the slums to free us from bondage. Even in 2023, when you can make beats on a phone, record on a phone, put on sound cloud, and promote on social media for free - without massa oversight - there are still very few conscious/political artists. People don't want to make it, and people not really trying to buy it.
The Timeline
From a "blowing up" pov - Eazy Duz it/SOC were way bigger than everything else that came out before it. I heard about it word of mouth. But soundscan, which is not a perfect measure by any means, Soundscan was showing how much Cube and Co were selling.
Obviously the beats were banging. But so were the earlier hits from Schooly D, Ice T, and KRS. Few songs are memorable without great beats.
Dr Dre wasn't the key ingredient here.
It was about the lyrics, how raw (and uncomplicated) they were.
For the most part, the cursing was the biggest thing burning my ears back then, but the subject matter would end up being 10x "worse".
IMO, Ice Cube started G-Rap.
But the fact that you had at least 3 other cats get big off of gangsta rap lyrics - means gangsta rap was inevitable.
If it wasn't Cube, it would have been someone else.
Everything that would happen with Dre, including Snoop, Death Row, and later 50 Cent (who brought to the public eye a lot of people in Queens) - none of this really starts without Cube's lyrics sparking pens around the country.
Were these poets so moved by the muse that they had to record? Naw, they saw that they could make money by rhyming about street life. So many rappers aren't rappers, they're "hustlers".....
In any event, without O'Shea, someone else would have penned a prison rap and put it on a dope beat.
So blaming him or Dre is sort of foolish.
In terms of the current hip hop climate today, the g-rap is self sustaining.
The labels don't need to really mold young rappers of today to sound like whatever is hot - they do it themselves.
3 of Hip Hop's biggest artists in the past decade are Kanye, Drake, and Kendrick. Not g-rappers.
In fact a lot of the most popular cats making money are "gangsta" in costume only.
It's about flashing money, partying, thots, and bragging.
I hear more about taking drugs than folks selling them...even from the "kingpins"...
And if we want to focus on lyrics, it's Ice Cube.
Late 60's/early 70's - To Avoid arguments - Let's just call the origin of hip hop - The Bronx Park Movement.
There's enough beef between Herc and the other BX dudes, as well as cats in BK saying they was doing the same thing, won't even get into Dj. Flowers... Nobody wants to pay all the OG's to show up and talk about it, so the history will always be in dispute.
What's not in dispute, was according to the OG's at the time, there were gangs/crews that made up the hip hop audience and performers. There might have been violence at the venue, outside of the venue, but it wasn't part of the "music", because the "music" wasn't even a thing yet. It was primarily a dance party with dj interactions and live performances. As has been said before, the idea of capturing hip hop as a recording was like trying to capture a basketball game and selling that. It was about being there, not the artifact. (Lemme get off my soap box)
So there have always been "gangsters" in hip hop. Moving in silence, behind the scenes, funding albums, washing drug money, extorting artists, owning the clubs...Very much like Reggae/Dancehall Reggae.
Hip Hop was never some shiny happy sun people music coming up from the slums to free us from bondage. Even in 2023, when you can make beats on a phone, record on a phone, put on sound cloud, and promote on social media for free - without massa oversight - there are still very few conscious/political artists. People don't want to make it, and people not really trying to buy it.
The Timeline
- 1985 - Schoolly D puts out P.S.K What does it Mean? (Park Side Killas). Ice T (from the east coast, but now living in Cali) hears this song, and gets inspired so.....
- 1986 - Ice T releases 6 in the Morning.
- 1987 - BDP - Criminal Minded - which isn't that G-Rap in comparison to Schoolly D and Ice T, and KRS's angle was more cautionary/educational than anything...
- 1987 - NWA and the Posse comes out - Boyz in the Hood and Dope Man
- 1988 - Eazy Duz It/Straight Outta Compton
From a "blowing up" pov - Eazy Duz it/SOC were way bigger than everything else that came out before it. I heard about it word of mouth. But soundscan, which is not a perfect measure by any means, Soundscan was showing how much Cube and Co were selling.
Obviously the beats were banging. But so were the earlier hits from Schooly D, Ice T, and KRS. Few songs are memorable without great beats.
Dr Dre wasn't the key ingredient here.
It was about the lyrics, how raw (and uncomplicated) they were.
For the most part, the cursing was the biggest thing burning my ears back then, but the subject matter would end up being 10x "worse".
IMO, Ice Cube started G-Rap.
But the fact that you had at least 3 other cats get big off of gangsta rap lyrics - means gangsta rap was inevitable.
If it wasn't Cube, it would have been someone else.
Everything that would happen with Dre, including Snoop, Death Row, and later 50 Cent (who brought to the public eye a lot of people in Queens) - none of this really starts without Cube's lyrics sparking pens around the country.
Were these poets so moved by the muse that they had to record? Naw, they saw that they could make money by rhyming about street life. So many rappers aren't rappers, they're "hustlers".....
In any event, without O'Shea, someone else would have penned a prison rap and put it on a dope beat.
So blaming him or Dre is sort of foolish.
In terms of the current hip hop climate today, the g-rap is self sustaining.
The labels don't need to really mold young rappers of today to sound like whatever is hot - they do it themselves.
3 of Hip Hop's biggest artists in the past decade are Kanye, Drake, and Kendrick. Not g-rappers.
In fact a lot of the most popular cats making money are "gangsta" in costume only.
It's about flashing money, partying, thots, and bragging.
I hear more about taking drugs than folks selling them...even from the "kingpins"...
FeverPitch2
Superstar
Yeah, except I addressed this earlier.
Cube was this guy pre-NWA
He wasn't a gangster and his early Dr. Dre produced records (that I linked in an earlier in this thread) reflected that.
NWA was a concept hatched by Dre and Eazy.
Cube was the guy for the job because Dre already knew what he could do.
Cube used to do dirty rap parodies of hit songs at the skating rink where Dre and Yella were DJing.
Dre would play the instrumentals while Cube rapped.
For example, Cube turned "My Adidas" into "My Penis"
The crowd loved it and it sparked Dre's imagination.
I see where you're going except it isn't accurate.
Cube wasn't writing gangsta rhymes until Dre told him to.
Of course, NWA wasnt the first to curse on rap records or to even make gangsta rap.
We've already acknowledged that earlier in the thread.
NWA was the the first rap group to make cursing their trademark.
NWA were the ones that made gangsta rap a crossover phenomenon.
All roads still lead back to Dre.
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Dipsey Doo
Superstar
I really blame Jerry Heller and Jimmy Iovine.
NWA did would anyone else would have done and take the money they were offered.
NWA did would anyone else would have done and take the money they were offered.
FeverPitch2
Superstar
I debunked this cop out a few times in this thread.
Riddle me this.
Why wasn't The D.O.C. a gangsta rapper if they were powerless against the money?
What about JJ Fad, who went platinum on their first time out and outsold the NWA & The Posse album?
BTW, what money?
Cube left because he made a grand total of $32K the year after Straight Outta Compton.
Dre left for financial reasons as well.
Cube said they were each asked to sign a contract for $75K and he refused.
RTB Rewind: Ice Cube Leaves NWA
On December 23, 1989, Ice Cube made his exit from NWA who had just rose to fame with 'Straight Outta Compton.'
Can we try a different excuse now?
FeverPitch2
Superstar
I didn't ask who started gangsta rap.
I named those names in this thread already.
So you're saying Dre was the architect and Cube was merely the draftsman* (Pun intended).
I'll rock with that, Dre being the driving force behind NWA.
*salute to a good argument*
I still maintain, if NWA got Thanos snapped, G-Rap still becomes the default setting for hip hop. All roads would still lead here.
FeverPitch2
Superstar
First off, hold this rep for being able to disagree and discuss from an analytical perspective.
Yup.
They could have had Ren or DOC (who was a superior emcee to Cube) write the lyrics but Dre, being the talent scout, knew that Cube's style would be the one to catch people's ear.
Eazy wouldn't sound right with a DOC flow.
Cube had an ear for detail, flow, storytelling, and humor. (Eazy Duz It and SOC both have a lot of genuinely hilarious moments).
Cube spoke the language of the people, so to speak.
So yes, Cube is crucial. We know for a fact NWA wasn't the same after he left.
DOC said this himself.
But it was Dre who realized what position Cube would play in his concept.
No.
Justin Nitsuj
Superstar
Jimmy Iovine.....NWA existed before Jerry Heller came into the picture.
Jerry Heller was working at Macola Records when he met Eazy E.
Macola Records was primarily a blues label in the 80's.
Artist like Z.Z. Hill were signed to Macola.
At the time, Ruthless, like every other rap and Black dance artist in L.A., was having their records pressed and distributed by Macola Records.
Heller was working there because his A-list music days were over. He was hungry.
Heller noticed noticed how many records they were moving and was curious.
Macola Records: An Oral History
The pressing plant and label was a key player in the birth of gangsta rap.
Now. Who else was controlling Dre?
CreepyMcCreeperson
Veteran
They care about money. We give them our money, so they keep putting out the music. We could have heard the lyrics and been turned off, and not bought it, but we bop to it, so they keep putting it out. It’s nobody’s job to babysit the black community. People know the difference between right and wrong.
No
The executives who paying these radio stations for gangster rap to be played and limiting the play of conscious hip hop and radio and tv taking the bribes started the downfall…
Look u can make all the im shooting nikkas up , fukking your baby mamas and gang gang shyt all u want… it’s up to the gate keepers on radio and tv at the time to say fukk that we not playing that, we going to keep playing brand Nubian, PE, pharcyde , etc etc but after death row blew up , you started to see from rappers like Mc lyte who was all cha cha to now wanting a rough neck to jodeci in R&B go from these NC forever my lady nikkas, to timbs and skull caps
The executives who paying these radio stations for gangster rap to be played and limiting the play of conscious hip hop and radio and tv taking the bribes started the downfall…
Look u can make all the im shooting nikkas up , fukking your baby mamas and gang gang shyt all u want… it’s up to the gate keepers on radio and tv at the time to say fukk that we not playing that, we going to keep playing brand Nubian, PE, pharcyde , etc etc but after death row blew up , you started to see from rappers like Mc lyte who was all cha cha to now wanting a rough neck to jodeci in R&B go from these NC forever my lady nikkas, to timbs and skull caps
