If Bron wins his 5th ring/5th FMVP next year, back to back with LA. Would you consider him GOAT?

[JesusFOREVER]

Nope, LeBron is 6’8 Westbrook on steroids
Bad teammate
Bad leader
Can’t play in a system
Coach killer
Makes his teammates worse
Flopper
Whiner
Least amount of skill compared to any legend in history
No go to moves besides pushing off and traveling
Bad shooter
Stat padder
Losing record in the Finals
4-6 with 14 all star teammates
Strongarms teams in free agency
Constantly needs a top 10 player to win, sometimes two
Egomanic

LeBron is the most manufactured superstar ever. Its amazing how they want to crown a man who has a losing record in the Finals the greatest its honestly hilarious LeBron can raise the dead he’ll never be considered the best of all time by anyone but his stan base online, most people outside of the internet dont even have lbj in their top 5 and thats the truth, they can use their eyes and see his legacy is completely fraudulent

and this is also playing in the weakest era ever, funny how this man leaped over like 10 people to get to #2, stop we need to discuss if hes even top 5 first lol but yeah yall lebron fans can keep trying to push it unless lebron wins 7 he’ll never be considered the universal greatest ever like Jordan, thats just how the cooki crumbles

 

[murksiderock]

Its amazing how they want to crown a man who has a losing record in the Finals the greatest

Can you explain why generations past crowned Wilt as arguably the greatest ever, then?

 

[fifth column]

Long response incoming lol:

Honestly in my gut, I think its almost over for him as a high level, elite player. I expected he had at least one more run as arguably the greatest player alive, and this season proved me right...

I think when the cliff comes, its gonna come hard and fast, I expect a Peyton Manning type decline---->if you followed Manning's career, he started 2014 on fire and was back in the MVP race, then there was an abrupt slowdown mid-season and by the last quarter of the year he was clearly washed. The way that happened all in one season was astonishing to watch...

The end is coming at some point, I'm not of the opinion LeBron has 4 or 5 high level years left, particularly given signs of decline were shown this year. I know he wants to stay to see Bronny possibly in The League with him, which the earliest would be 2023-24, that would be Year 21 for LeBron. So overall, at best, I see LeBron playing 4 more years max, and I definitely don't expect him to be a Top 10 player at that point...

LeBron's personality also strikes me as the type though, if a hard cliff hits him the way it did Manning, I cant see him overstaying his welcome if he's hurting his team, because that's what it was with Manning. He was a negative on the field and he coulda tried to rejuvenate in the offseason and come back in '16, but he knew he couldn't. The previous 1.5 seasons dating to mid-14 was enough evidence that the level he was used to playing at was gone forever. Similarly, "if" that strong of a decline hits LeBron, I can see him leaving before 2024, but I dont see him past 2024 period...

He's got 3-4 years left, sooner if he loses it all quickly, so to circle back to your original question, he's done winning MVPs. The idea that he could repeat this level of play in Year 18, there just is no precedent for it, I think he remains a Top 10 player but we start seeing more age and the upcoming season will see a strong shift to AD as the complete focus of the team...

I have enough faith in Pelinka that they are gonna retool to keep the Lakers in contention for the foreseeable future, so I dont necessarily think Bron is done winning championships. Its too early to predict they go b2b, but I can definitely see one more chip within the next 2-3 years. Anything more than one is asking a lot, expecting him to get to 6, when we know the landscape of the sport changes fast and he will be assuredly a declining asset going forward...

I say he gets one more ring, maybe it comes in his very last season like Manning, maybe it comes sooner. One more ring, no more MVPs though and when they win that ring he will easily not be the best player on that team, though maybe he wins FMVP with a throwback performance?

Like most others though, at this point I've seen everything I need to see from LeBron. Literally nothing that happens in his career from here forward can hurt him because there is not a single precedent of someone at Year 18 or later being relevant as an elite player. Hes already been greater for longer than anyone in the history of the sport. He showed me in his first 13 years what he was, if he never wins another title, irrelevant to me. If he wins a title but AD or someone else is the best player on the team, irrelevant to me. If he gets to another Finals and his squad loses, doesn't matter. If he finally loses a Rd1 series, or misses another playoffs, or loses in the Semis or WCF that he hasn't lost in, in well over a decade, doesn't matter...

He's the greatest basketball player I've ever seen with the Grand Canyon between him and the next closest guy(s) in my 21 years watching The Game, and objectively he's one of the two greatest players to ever play, and maybe he isnt #1. But nothing that happens from here will change that, and I'm looking forward to when the next historical peer comes along to put his name in the LeBron level of GOATness (and I think Luka really has a shot at becoming a Top 5-10 GOAT)....

I agree with you on Bron but not Luka. Bron plays both goat level offense and high level defense for most of his run so far. Luka only plays high level on offense so I can’t see him leap frogging to top 5 ever.

 

[JesusFOREVER]

Can you explain why generations past crowned Wilt as arguably the greatest ever, then?

Wilt was a physical specimen no one ever saw before and scored a 100 pts averaged 50 dude was a folk tale way more impressive than anything LeBrons ever done

every generation has people that crown their best player the greatest, however no player reaches generation to generation claiming this like Jordan, whether it was the shoes, commercials, movies, his own game he did it you got got cats born in 01 calling Jordan the greatest lol thats just how it is and if u seen him play its easy to see why if u havent you’ll obviously argue for a player you like more

 

[fifth column]

Can you explain why generations past crowned Wilt as arguably the greatest ever, then?

I don’t think there was any universal praise for Wilt as the goat. He was more seen as a marvel but Russell and Kareem always got praised over him

 

[Gotright]

Nope, LeBron is 6’8 Westbrook on steroids
Bad teammate
Bad leader
Can’t play in a system
Coach killer
Makes his teammates worse
Flopper
Whiner
Least amount of skill compared to any legend in history
No go to moves besides pushing off and traveling
Bad shooter
Stat padder
Losing record in the Finals
4-6 with 14 all star teammates
Strongarms teams in free agency
Constantly needs a top 10 player to win, sometimes two
Egomanic

LeBron is the most manufactured superstar ever. Its amazing how they want to crown a man who has a losing record in the Finals the greatest its honestly hilarious LeBron can raise the dead he’ll never be considered the best of all time by anyone but his stan base online, most people outside of the internet dont even have lbj in their top 5 and thats the truth, they can use their eyes and see his legacy is completely fraudulent

and this is also playing in the weakest era ever, funny how this man leaped over like 10 people to get to #2, stop we need to discuss if hes even top 5 first lol but yeah yall lebron fans can keep trying to push it unless lebron wins 7 he’ll never be considered the universal greatest ever like Jordan, thats just how the cooki crumbles

top 5 horrible post ever

 

[KidJSoul]

That's the thing, not everyone thinks of the same thing when they think of GOAT. If you tell me I have to build a franchise around a single player, I'm saying Lebron. If you're saying who's the GOAT I'm saying MJ. If you're saying who had the best career, I'm saying they're about equal in different ways.

Respect the fact that you have your own well developed criteria for the GOAT instead of doing the same old generic arbitrary list.

 

[JesusFOREVER]

top 5 horrible post ever

Easy to say that when u know u cant rebuttal cause its true

 

[fifth column]

Wilt was a physical specimen no one ever saw before and scored a 100 pts averaged 50 dude was a folk tale way more impressive than anything LeBrons ever done

every generation has people that crown their best player the greatest, however no player reaches generation to generation claiming this like Jordan, whether it was the shoes, commercials, movies, his own game he did it you got got cats born in 01 calling Jordan the greatest lol thats just how it is and if u seen him play its easy to see why if u havent you’ll obviously argue for a player you like more

There is a reason everyone wants the next mike, it’s like a high that can’t be reached. Dude is a SG and we compare every great player that comes along regardless of position to his greatness. Lebron is the greatest SF of all time but that’s not enough to satisfy basketball appetite. Not even Bron is satisfied with being the best ever at his own position because he is hypnotize by MJ’s greatness.

 

[murksiderock]

I agree with you on Bron but not Luka. Bron plays both goat level offense and high level defense for most of his run so far. Luka only plays high level on offense so I can’t see him leap frogging to top 5 ever.

This is fair. Maybe thats too high but barring a career-altering injury, Luka is the active player i believe separates himself as a cut above the rest of his contemporaries. I truly believe this...

Wilt was a physical specimen no one ever saw before and scored a 100 pts averaged 50 dude was a folk tale way more impressive than anything LeBrons ever done

every generation has people that crown their best player the greatest, however no player reaches generation to generation claiming this like Jordan, whether it was the shoes, commercials, movies, his own game he did it you got got cats born in 01 calling Jordan the greatest lol thats just how it is and if u seen him play its easy to see why if u havent you’ll obviously argue for a player you like more

See bro, this is where it loses me, we can't give exclusions and exceptions to everybody but LeBron. The reality is none of this is as black and white as it appears, and there's nuance and context in everyone's career...

You said LeBron can't be in the conversation with a losing Finals record, but that never stopped Wilt from being in the conversation. The same Wilt whi was a physical specimen also had multiple postseason meltdowns on his resume, who contemporaries of his day viewed as a loser (basketball fans who dislike Bron call him a loser but no basketball player refers ro him as "loser" like they did Stilt). All these exclusions, either having a losing Finals record is important or it isnt, none of that, "well if this guy has a losing record its different" bullshyt...

Because the reality is nobody ever talked about Finals record for anyone except Jordan, until LeBron. Nobody cared that Magic was 5-4, he was a 5x champ. Nobody cares about Bird's L's, he a 3x champ. The excuse that they didn't have a losing record doesn't fly when you see Wilt was 2-4, but he was a 2x champ...

Its always mattered more about how many championships you won, rather than lost. Only with LeBron do the losses take on inflated value and it aint because he has a losing record, because he aint the first GOAT to have a losing Finals record...

I don’t think there was any universal praise for Wilt as the goat. He was more seen as a marvel but Russell and Kareem always got praised over him

My understanding is there was plenty of debate between Russell and Wilt despite the ring count being so lopsided. Cap def in there too...

 

[THE MACHINE]

Its to the point where Bron's peak is now being held against him.
Mike took 7 years to win his 1st, then won 6 in 8 calendar years.
Bron took 8 before his 1st, has won 4 in 9 years. Brons window is still open. We cant hold it against Bron that Mike retired twice.

I still have Mike ahead but to say "Bron cant catch Mike" is ridiculous. He is still a peak performer and can add serious weight to his legacy in the next 1-2 years. Brons longevity as a peak performer shouldnt be a negative.

 

[JesusFOREVER]

This is fair. Maybe thats too high but barring a career-altering injury, Luka is the active player i believe separates himself as a cut above the rest of his contemporaries. I truly believe this...



See bro, this is where it loses me, we can't give exclusions for anyone except LeBron. The reality is none of this is as black and white as it appears, and there's nuance and context in everyone's career...

You said LeBron can't be in the conversation with a losing Finals record, but that never stopped Wilt from being in the conversation. The same Wilt whi was a physical specimen also had multiple postseason meltdowns on his resume, who contemporaries of his day viewed as a loser (basketball fans who dislike Bron call him a loser but no basketball player refers ro him as "loser" like they did Stilt). All these exclusions, either having a losing Finals record is important or it isnt, none of that, "well if this guy has a losing record its different" bullshyt...

Because the reality is nobody ever talked about Finals record for anyone except Jordan, until LeBron. Nobody cared that Magic was 5-4, he was a 5x champ. Nobody cares about Bird's L's, he a 3x champ. The excuse that they didn't have a losing record doesn't fly when you see Wilt was 2-4, but he was a 2x champ...

Its always mattered more about how many championships you won, rather than lost. Only with LeBron do the losses take on inflated value and it aint because he has a losing record, because he aint the first GOAT to have a losing Finals record...



My understanding is there was plenty of debate between Russell and Wilt despite the ring count being so lopsided. Cap def in there too...

Wilt was the best player at the time despite his record, better and more accomplished players showed up and now he isnt anymore

 

[JesusFOREVER]

There is a reason everyone wants the next mike, it’s like a high that can’t be reached. Dude is a SG and we compare every great player that comes along regardless of position to his greatness. Lebron is the greatest SF of all time but that’s not enough to satisfy basketball appetite. Not even Bron is satisfied with being the best ever at his own position because he is hypnotize by MJ’s greatness.

If anyone does ever surpass Mike it wont be a dude wearing his number or copying his game

 

[The_Third_Man]

I agree with this completely. The line will keep moving if he adds to his accomplishments...



This is true, but this is where context comes into play...

Kareem got to 10 Finals but was only the best player on maybe 6 of those teams. Which, I dont wanna minimize it, you can count on one hand the number of guys were the best player on 6 or more Finals teams, thats a hell of an achievement, but this is still an important distinction to point out with he and Bron...

He also got to his 10th Finals in his last season, Year 20. When he was thru Y17 just as Bron is now, he had been to 7 Finals total, won 4 of them. When people come with the LeBron/Kareem convos some specific details get lost. It also took Kareem a stretch of 19 years to get to 10 Finals, from his first appearance to his last one; LeBron got to his 10 in 14 years, thats in 26% faster than Kareem got to his, while being the best player on all of those teams in comparison...

Kareem was far and away the greatest player of the 70s NBA, the only comparable guys to individually dominate an era to such an extent are 90s Mike and '10s LeBron. Thats it.....and yet in his decade of dominance, Cap only got to two Finals, winning one, and choking pretty badly in the 4thQ G7 of the one he lost. He also missed the postseason two consecutive years in his decade of dominance, these are not small details that should be excluded when comparing Cap to LeBron and Mike...

Kareem's entire NBA body of work is formidable and bests almost anyone. It isnt better than Mike's, and it isnt stronger than LeBron's, and I think he's the clear #3 of those three. Too many people want to point to 6 rings/10 Finals and put him over Bron specifically, but there are too many variables you can point out as to why he should be considered a step below LeBron...



Mike is the most decorated and accomplished player in NBA history, and that itself is enough to stand his case on----->while alota Coli brehs love saying "i don't value accomplishments/accolades", accolades don't earn themselves. It means something to be the most decorated player your sport has ever seen...

Bron won't catch Mike's trophy chest, its too late in his career to feasibly believe he is gonna run off multiple more rings abd MVPs, but he and Bill are closer to Mike's trophy count than anyone else...

its incomprehensible how the fact that Kareem missed the playoffs - as a healthy 27-28 yo- never gets brought up when people call him the goat or #2.

Russillo (the Ringer/Bill Simmons podcasts) said "Unless it's the finals, the record doesn't count. that's how it works" to defend a certain player losing in the 2nd round. fukkin ridiclous.

 

[Remote]

Nope, LeBron is 6’8 Westbrook on steroids
Bad teammate
Bad leader
Can’t play in a system
Coach killer
Makes his teammates worse
Flopper
Whiner
Least amount of skill compared to any legend in history
No go to moves besides pushing off and traveling
Bad shooter
Stat padder
Losing record in the Finals
4-6 with 14 all star teammates
Strongarms teams in free agency
Constantly needs a top 10 player to win, sometimes two
Egomanic

LeBron is the most manufactured superstar ever. Its amazing how they want to crown a man who has a losing record in the Finals the greatest its honestly hilarious LeBron can raise the dead he’ll never be considered the best of all time by anyone but his stan base online, most people outside of the internet dont even have lbj in their top 5 and thats the truth, they can use their eyes and see his legacy is completely fraudulent

and this is also playing in the weakest era ever, funny how this man leaped over like 10 people to get to #2, stop we need to discuss if hes even top 5 first lol but yeah yall lebron fans can keep trying to push it unless lebron wins 7 he’ll never be considered the universal greatest ever like Jordan, thats just how the cooki crumbles

This is the worst post of 2020.