If Bron wins his 5th ring/5th FMVP next year, back to back with LA. Would you consider him GOAT?
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fifth column
Superstar
I said MJ teams in the finals are favored. Who cares about 2nd round for MJ or not getting to the playoffs for Bron. Nobody is arguing MJ or Bron being goat their first few years in the NBA. They both got to the point for goat consideration once they started getting to the finals and winning chips. At some point y’all gonna have to think about what y’all are trying to argue about
fifth column
Superstar
If MJ didn’t win 6 rings with 6 fmvp or Bron didn’t go to 10 finals and win 4 then we would be arguing about 2 other players as goat, stop it. Their dominance over competition + winning in their era is why anybody cares about crowning goat so don’t fool yourself. How could MJ or Bron just show up and start winning chips without developing and going through the process to be the best.
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Mike never lost in the finals
that ends the debate right there
Neither did Scottie Pippen, who also three-peated twice and he's considered one of the GOATs. Considering Jordan never won anything of note until Pippen showed up -- nor has he won anything outside of Chicago and without Phil Jackson -- why isn't Pippen getting any argument?
Furthermore, if rings are the entire debate (and I know you kept going), then why isn't Robert Horry and his 7-0 record in the NBA Finals being mentioned?
LeBron brought CLEVELAND a championship and that trumps a whole lot of other Finals runs out there. Secondly, outside of 2018-19, the last DECADE of NBA Champions have either had LeBron on the winning team or defeated the team that had LeBron in the Finals. In THIS era? That's preposterous. It's literally become the LeBron Invitational.
Low-key the main thing MJ might have over LeBron is that you're more likely to die over a pair of Jordans than you are over a pair of LeBrons.
@murksiderock dope post! Even though MJ is number 1 on my list and LeBron is 1 on your list it's all good. I wish people would just appreciate both players instead of tearing them down.
At what point in LeBron's career did he surpass Jordan for you? Also, LeBron's performance in the 2011 finals, what were your thoughts on it?
murksiderock
Superstar
@murksiderock dope post! Even though MJ is number 1 on my list and LeBron is 1 on your list it's all good. I wish people would just appreciate both players instead of tearing them down.
At what point in LeBron's career did he surpass Jordan for you? Also, LeBron's performance in the 2011 finals, what were your thoughts on it?
2011 was an abomination for LeBron. And for me, the only real stain on his legacy. He had won 2 of the 3 previous MVPs and while Rose is a fan favorite on The Coli, I very much remember real time discussions that Bron coulda won a 3rd MVP in a row in '11. He was on fire that year, on fire that postseason...
We've seen guys put up his kinda performance in The Finals, but it was mind-boggling how bad he was relative to the standards expected of him. And I was happy the Heat lost...
I've mentioned before, I wasn't always a Bron stan. Fan, yes, but I was a Melo Stan. Bron was probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite player, I was also a Tony Parker Stan (and still am). When he left Cleveland, I villainized him like many others. I didn't think it was a weak move, I just didn't like that he left Cleveland waiting to the final minute, I thought he owed them the courtesy beforehand of telling them he wouldn't come back...
I always thought Wade was a little overrated (still do), the idea of these guys winning multiple chips together before my guy Melo would pissed me off, so I rooted against them lol. I was also always a Dirk fan (still am), so i was elated he got that ring and happy he won it over the overrated Heat...
It was always evident to be LeBron was an All-Timer in waiting, but I shytted on him when Miami won in '12. I was rooting for OKC and the main thing I told people for the next year was that shyt was weak, came in a lockout year (which I never held against Duncan), I needed to see them repeat in a full season...
The year Bron got me back was '13, the 27-game win streak and the level of play he put on that regular season was far and away higher than anything I ever saw, this dude was playing in a completely different stratosphere than anyone else in The League. I was rooting for SA and Parker in The Finals, too. The decider to me was G6---->muhfukkas gas Allen's shot, which is one of the most clutch shots ever, but people completely skip over Bron going completely nuts in that second half, that 3 he hit prior to Allen's, his defensive playmaker in the 4th, he willed Miami to that win and Allen isn't even in position to make a shot that matters without Bron going crazy that 4th. And I said that in real time. When they won G7 and he closed that with another huge 4th, they proved me wrong that they could go b2b, win in a regular season, beat a mature, quality opponent in The Finals, etc. My 3-year run of lightweight hating on dude was over, it was clear he was a Top 10 All-Timer at that point...
Probably became a Stan after watching him look washed several different parts of 2015 but take that unit to a Finals and put on another All-Time Finals performance. nikkas in retrospect shyt on '15 because of his inefficiency but in real time that was a masterful manipulation if his game to put a severely limited roster in position to win, that was an All-Time performance...
As to when he passed Mike for me, I dont remember consciously thinking it, but probably '16. The thing is, and I've stated this many times, I was never under the impression Mike was greater than LeBron, just more accomplished and having a better path to those accomplishments. And I'm 31 and grew up with the same Jordan Propaganda everyone else did, I remember renting a Jordan book from my school library in like 4th grade (so 97-98) before I was even into ball like that, with the book basically a manifesto on how Mike was the greatest there was and ever would be...
murksiderock
Superstar
@Dave24 (cont):
My step-dad grew up in Little Rock and was 19 when he saw Mike's Heels get upset by the Hogs in person in '84 (he actually saw Mike and UNC's morning practice at his school too), and he followed Mike's entire career from that point forward. When I got into basketball heavy in my preteen and teens, so we're going early 00s here, we had conversations where my dad told me he respected Mike as one of the GOATs but not of some lane to himself, and explained his reasoning behind it (said he was a Dr J clone, and if The Doc didn't waste his first 5 years or so in ABA he'd have 6 rings too; said any Top 10 player could take Mike's place on the 90s Bulls and win those same championships, because even if styles of play were different, All-Timers have the "it" factor to make their team better, etc). He wasn't a Mike hater, he always said once Mike hit his peak he was the best player in the NBA. He just didn't respect how people said he was the greatest player ever with no competition for that label, when he'd been watching the sport since the mid-70s...
My dad is 55 now and we revisited the whole Mike thing 6 months ago when Last Dance dropped and he still feels the same: Mike is easily one of the GOATs to him but not THE GOAT, and once he saw Kobe hit his peak, then later LeBron, he saw two guys who could be just as decorated as Jordan if given the same circumstances because he didn't see Jordan as a better basketball player by any valuable margin...
So bringing it back to Bron, because I was never under the impression Mike was the highest bar or unrivaled GOAT, I never had the impression LeBron had a particular mountain to climb to reach Mike. Of course, as I started studying the game more and fleshing out my opinions, I did come to believe Mike was the best previous player, but not better than LeBron...
So while after the '13 Finals Bron was clearly Top 10 GOAT to me, '16 is the earliest I remember saying "damn this nikka the greatest player ever", so that would have to be when he passed Mike to, even though I didn't specifically match him with Mike in my brain. That was yet another All-Time Finals performance, and a completely unprecedented one, against a 90s Bulls-esque team. Those last three games were nothing short of an iconic performance. At that point, we were watching Bron in his 6th straight Finals and pulling of his 3rd win in 5 years...
So he'd put his team in Finals contention and made a Finals run earlier than Mike without a Pippen or Jackson to help him ('07). He went on a run to 6 straight Finals with two different teams without needing a mental reset/retirement along the way, that was a display of unrivaled mental toughness. He bounced back from a lower low than Mike ever had ('11), to go on a run paralleling Mike's against stronger competition, and hitting arguably a higher high than Mike ever had ('16 Finals); notwithstanding he wasnt far removed from winning 4 MVPs in 5 years, being snubbed a DPOY, being snubbed one or both the '11 or '14 MVP, dude legitimately coulda won 6 MVPs in a row....
I think all of these things in combination made it clear to me, that at the floor I was watching Mike's 1:1 equal, at best I was watching something greater than Mike. As previously mentioned though, I see the argument for Bron over Mike, but to me its mainly the fact he never had the '11 meltdown moment while being able to match Bron's highs. Thats the differentiator if I'm arguing for Mike...
I was never into ring counting to determine who was best so '16 was when I'd have to say he passed Mike to me. And everything since has probably just underscored that perspective and solidified it, but to be clear they are the two in my opinion who stand over everyone and I'm not mad at people who have Mike #1 as long as the argument isn't some agenda-driven shyt (6 rings, tougher era, mentally tougher, unbeatable, shyt like that)...
My step-dad grew up in Little Rock and was 19 when he saw Mike's Heels get upset by the Hogs in person in '84 (he actually saw Mike and UNC's morning practice at his school too), and he followed Mike's entire career from that point forward. When I got into basketball heavy in my preteen and teens, so we're going early 00s here, we had conversations where my dad told me he respected Mike as one of the GOATs but not of some lane to himself, and explained his reasoning behind it (said he was a Dr J clone, and if The Doc didn't waste his first 5 years or so in ABA he'd have 6 rings too; said any Top 10 player could take Mike's place on the 90s Bulls and win those same championships, because even if styles of play were different, All-Timers have the "it" factor to make their team better, etc). He wasn't a Mike hater, he always said once Mike hit his peak he was the best player in the NBA. He just didn't respect how people said he was the greatest player ever with no competition for that label, when he'd been watching the sport since the mid-70s...
My dad is 55 now and we revisited the whole Mike thing 6 months ago when Last Dance dropped and he still feels the same: Mike is easily one of the GOATs to him but not THE GOAT, and once he saw Kobe hit his peak, then later LeBron, he saw two guys who could be just as decorated as Jordan if given the same circumstances because he didn't see Jordan as a better basketball player by any valuable margin...
So bringing it back to Bron, because I was never under the impression Mike was the highest bar or unrivaled GOAT, I never had the impression LeBron had a particular mountain to climb to reach Mike. Of course, as I started studying the game more and fleshing out my opinions, I did come to believe Mike was the best previous player, but not better than LeBron...
So while after the '13 Finals Bron was clearly Top 10 GOAT to me, '16 is the earliest I remember saying "damn this nikka the greatest player ever", so that would have to be when he passed Mike to, even though I didn't specifically match him with Mike in my brain. That was yet another All-Time Finals performance, and a completely unprecedented one, against a 90s Bulls-esque team. Those last three games were nothing short of an iconic performance. At that point, we were watching Bron in his 6th straight Finals and pulling of his 3rd win in 5 years...
So he'd put his team in Finals contention and made a Finals run earlier than Mike without a Pippen or Jackson to help him ('07). He went on a run to 6 straight Finals with two different teams without needing a mental reset/retirement along the way, that was a display of unrivaled mental toughness. He bounced back from a lower low than Mike ever had ('11), to go on a run paralleling Mike's against stronger competition, and hitting arguably a higher high than Mike ever had ('16 Finals); notwithstanding he wasnt far removed from winning 4 MVPs in 5 years, being snubbed a DPOY, being snubbed one or both the '11 or '14 MVP, dude legitimately coulda won 6 MVPs in a row....
I think all of these things in combination made it clear to me, that at the floor I was watching Mike's 1:1 equal, at best I was watching something greater than Mike. As previously mentioned though, I see the argument for Bron over Mike, but to me its mainly the fact he never had the '11 meltdown moment while being able to match Bron's highs. Thats the differentiator if I'm arguing for Mike...
I was never into ring counting to determine who was best so '16 was when I'd have to say he passed Mike to me. And everything since has probably just underscored that perspective and solidified it, but to be clear they are the two in my opinion who stand over everyone and I'm not mad at people who have Mike #1 as long as the argument isn't some agenda-driven shyt (6 rings, tougher era, mentally tougher, unbeatable, shyt like that)...
He can't catch Michael and I still have Kareem over him by a significant margin.
Teko
All Star
Pippen was once top 3 in MVP voting
etrofllenrod504
All Star
I don't know what worse about this post. That fact that its so inaccurate and not true. Or the fact this poster believed it enough to type all this and post it.
GPBear
The Tape Crusader
He's been swept in the finals twice. No. 
tofuspeedstar
Bosozoku Champion
Of all time? no
Of this generation? absolutely
Of this generation? absolutely
