How Segregation Destroys Black Wealth

[BezO]

It's well documented that this happens, it's not even debatable at this point.

Of course it happens. But it's easily avoidable.

Natural segregation is fine. Forced segregat is the problem.

Natural = initiated by the folks that are segregated?

You can't deny well documented facts with personal anecdotes.

Again, not denyin' it. Sayin' it's easily avoidable.

Most "fixer-upper" property and land in these cities is owned by the banks. Not black people.

Most? Maybe. But there are plenty of fixer uppers owned by Blacks. I'm witnessin' it. Almost all of the homes purchased by investors in my neighborhood are owned by Blacks. It's a predominantly Black neightborhood. There are "we buy homes" signs everywhere. I get post card interest weekly. Investors are knockin' on doors. And this is city wide.

I also watch the DC market daily. I work in the field and I'm gettin' in the business personally. Long time Black residents are sellin' their homes. Whites are buyin'.

Let's not ignore the definition of gentrification. And many of the Blacks movin' out are property owners. Not all renters.

Blacks get less value because they get higher prices and higher interests rates, and the forced segregation drives the value down.

Unaware buyers get less value by payin' higher prices. Unaware and/or bad credit folks get less value because of higher rates. And many folks on the wrong end of gentrification willingly segregate themselves.

DC is down to 50% Black. DC values are risin' while Blacks are sellin'. Long time Black residents are takin' their equity & runnin' from valuable areas to the burbs for "more space".

Again your personal anecdotes mean nothing in the face of facts.

Again, I work in the industry. We do affordable housin'. My personal anecdotes are not so personal. I'm givin' you my personal account of a citywide phenomenon.

I have friends in the industry in other cities. This is not me knowin' a couple of home owners.




I'm not denyin' any of what goes on. Folks play some dirty tricks. But there are plenty of Black folks with the power to buy & invest in these neighborhoods that are simply not takin' advantage. There are programs that Black folks are not takin' advantage of on the same scale as whites.

There were probably twice as many whites at workshop I went to when I purchased my home in 2010. And this is in DC, the former Chocolate City. And we are gettin' more whites comin' through our program (the copany I work for does afordable housin'). The rate is the same for everyone that goes through either of these programs. Each program provides and/or refers agents.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Of course it happens. But it's easily avoidable.

No it's not, have you been paying attention for the last 150 years?

Natural = initiated by the folks that are segregated?

Meaning not government sanctioned.

Most? Maybe. But there are plenty of fixer uppers owned by Blacks.

Who did they buy them from?

I'm witnessin' it. Almost all of the homes purchased by investors in my neighborhood are owned by Blacks. It's a predominantly Black neightborhood. There are "we buy homes" signs everywhere. I get post card interest weekly. Investors are knockin' on doors. And this is city wide.

I also watch the DC market daily. I work in the field and I'm gettin' in the business personally. Long time Black residents are sellin' their homes. Whites are buyin'.

Let's not ignore the definition of gentrification. And many of the Blacks movin' out are property owners. Not all renters.

Unaware buyers get less value by payin' higher prices. Unaware and/or bad credit folks get less value because of higher rates. And many folks on the wrong end of gentrification willingly segregate themselves.

DC is down to 50% Black. DC values are risin' while Blacks are sellin'. Long time Black residents are takin' their equity & runnin' from valuable areas to the burbs for "more space".

Again, I work in the industry. We do affordable housin'. My personal anecdotes are not so personal. I'm givin' you my personal account of a citywide phenomenon.

I have friends in the industry in other cities. This is not me knowin' a couple of home owners.




I'm not denyin' any of what goes on. Folks play some dirty tricks. But there are plenty of Black folks with the power to buy & invest in these neighborhoods that are simply not takin' advantage. There are programs that Black folks are not takin' advantage of on the same scale as whites.

There were probably twice as many whites at workshop I went to when I purchased my home in 2010. And this is in DC, the former Chocolate City. And we are gettin' more whites comin' through our program (the copany I work for does afordable housin'). The rate is the same for everyone that goes through either of these programs. Each program provides and/or refers agents.

You are talking about one specific program in one specific city. A program that was designed for the sole purpose of bringing more equality to the housing market.

A program that wouldn't need to exist if the unfair practices were not happening.

 

[BezO]

No it's not, have you been paying attention for the last 150 years?

Yes it is. Yes I have.

Until after the 60s, Black folks were not allowed to use the funds & programs available to whites. I'm not talkin' about Jim Crow era. I'm talkin' since, especially recently.

You've dismissed my work experience. You've dismissed the work experience of those I know. So I leave it alone.

Who did they buy them from?

I wouldn't know. These are long time residents. Grand parents, homes passed down from parents, etc. Folks are simply cashin' out of valuable areas throughout DC. Same in Brooklyn, NY. Same elsewhere.

You are talking about one specific program in one specific city. A program that was designed for the sole purpose of bringing more equality to the housing market.

A program that wouldn't need to exist if the unfair practices were not happening.

I'm talkin' many programs. There are 3 city programs in DC that I'm aware of. I know of 2 "private" programs, one of which I utilized. Both are available throughout the country. And many cities have an affordable housing program. Some, like DC, more than 1.

The programs exist because of capitalism, not racism. They're there for folks that can't do 20% down. They're there for folks without great credit. They're there to help folks get through the red tape.

 

[Samori Toure]

Someone else notices what section 8 really does too
shyt is seriously insidious

Only way that that could be combated is if we completely controlled the politics of our area.

Yes it is seriously insidious.

I don't even know if we can combat it by completely controlling the politics in our area, because even black politicians will pander and cater to poor black voters. And the one thing that those poor black voters are going to demand is to be able to live in middle class black neighborhoods; even though those poor black voters can't afford to buy homes in those neighborhoods. So the compromise will be housing vouchers to allow the poor blacks to live in middle class black neighborhoods that they couldn't afford to live in on their own dime; which in turn will drive down the home values of middle class black people in those neighborhoods.

I have sat back and studied this situation for a long time. It is not my imagination that almost every middle class black neighborhood eventually is targeted to be a ghetto because of Section 8 program. I would bet that most black middle class homeowners would like to stay in their neighborhoods, because most of the time they have spent a lot of money on their homes and they spend a lot more money to keep up their homes, neighborhoods and schools. But then a bunch of Shequesias, Ray-Rays and their kids show up with housing vouchers and then you have a ghetto. And that drives out black middle class and they in turn end up over paying to live in white middle class neighborhoods.

It is a vicious cycle meant to keep the black middle class in debt.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Yes it is. Yes I have.

Until after the 60s, Black folks were not allowed to use the funds & programs available to whites. I'm not talkin' about Jim Crow era. I'm talkin' since, especially recently.

You've dismissed my work experience. You've dismissed the work experience of those I know. So I leave it alone.

You are dismissing the experiences of millions of Americans

I wouldn't know. These are long time residents. Grand parents, homes passed down from parents, etc. Folks are simply cashin' out of valuable areas throughout DC. Same in Brooklyn, NY. Same elsewhere.

I thought you said you were paying attention to history?

I'm talkin' many programs. There are 3 city programs in DC that I'm aware of. I know of 2 "private" programs, one of which I utilized. Both are available throughout the country. And many cities have an affordable housing program. Some, like DC, more than 1.

The programs exist because of capitalism, not racism. They're there for folks that can't do 20% down. They're there for folks without great credit. They're there to help folks get through the red tape.

The programs are a direct response to housing discrimination and segregation.

 

[BezO]

You are dismissing the experiences of millions of Americans

I'm recognizin' the lack of awareness of many. And I'm recognizin' the experience of millions who have been successful.

The way you tell it, we have no choice but to bow to the oppressive system. I disagree. Folks with the will & necessary knowledge overcome it regularly.

I'm lookin' at the Hatian types, that revolt & buck the system. You're lookin' at the slaves waitin' to be freed.

I thought you said you were paying attention to history?

Not sure what you're gettin' at, nor what that has to do with Black folks cashin' out of valuable neighborhoods, nor what that has to do with Blacks not investin' in these neighborhoods.

The programs are a direct response to housing discrimination and segregation.

I'll concede regardin' the original purpose. Currently, these programs serve those not able to do it conventionally.

Why aren't Black folks usin' them at the same rate as whites? Competitive rates, consistent for every memeber. 0 - 3.5% down. Help with the 3.5% down in some cases.

For those that know, you can get a home with little to no initial out of pocket expense. And with a little research, you get into a neighborhood appreciatin' in value.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

I'm recognizin' the lack of awareness of many. And I'm recognizin' the experience of millions who have been successful.

The way you tell it, we have no choice but to bow to the oppressive system. I disagree. Folks with the will & necessary knowledge overcome it regularly.

I'm lookin' at the Hatian types, that revolt & buck the system. You're lookin' at the slaves waitin' to be freed.

You are talking about using "programs" that are part of the system. Programs that are a response to the broken system. Programs exactly like the author of this article advocates.

Not sure what you're gettin' at, nor what that has to do with Black folks cashin' out of valuable neighborhoods, nor what that has to do with Blacks not investin' in these neighborhoods.

Who owned any of this before black people?

I'll concede regardin' the original purpose. Currently, these programs serve those not able to do it conventionally.

Why aren't Black folks usin' them at the same rate as whites? Competitive rates, consistent for every memeber. 0 - 3.5% down. Help with the 3.5% down in some cases.

For those that know, you can get a home with little to no initial out of pocket expense. And with a little research, you get into a neighborhood appreciatin' in value.

Black people are using the programs. What makes you think they aren't?

 

[BezO]

You are talking about using "programs" that are part of the system. Programs that are a response to the broken system. Programs exactly like the author of this article advocates.

You're not sayin' anything. Cool smilie though.

You're talkin' about unfair practices. I'm talkin' about ways to circumvent them. Programs help to do that.

I purchased through a "program". I'm up 55%.

What's wrong with programs now? You have another cool smilie that won't answer?

Who owned any of this before black people?

I already said I don't know. You're still not sayin' anything.

Help me understand what that has to do with the CURRENT owners cashin' out? What does that have to do with Blacks not buyin' from Blacks?

Black people are using the programs. What makes you think they aren't?

Dude, are you really not comprehendin'?

I asked why aren't Blacks not participatin' AT THE SAME RATE.

But I'm gonna let you & yours lay under the white man's foot. Me & mine will be out here gettin' it. Carry on.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

You're not sayin' anything. Cool smilie though.

You're talkin' about unfair practices. I'm talkin' about ways to circumvent them. Programs help to do that.

That's the whole point of the article. Programs like this are needed to circumvent the years of unequal practices.

I purchased through a "program". I'm up 55%.

What's wrong with programs now? You have another cool smilie that won't answer?

Nothing's wrong with using the programs. They are great. It's just not segregation, infact the programs are an attempt at desegregation.

The original post of mine you quoted was a response to a guy saying "this is why we need to separate from white people"

You are here talking about a program that was written by and is supported by white people. That's not separation.

I already said I don't know. You're still not sayin' anything.

Help me understand what that has to do with the CURRENT owners cashin' out? What does that have to do with Blacks not buyin' from Blacks?

Dude, are you really not comprehendin'?

I asked why aren't Blacks not participatin' AT THE SAME RATE.

But I'm gonna let you & yours lay under the white man's foot. Me & mine will be out here gettin' it. Carry on.

You say I'm laying under the white mans foot, but you are here bragging about a program that "the white man" gave you.

I don't think you understand what the hell you are talking about here

And where are your numbers on how many black people are "cashing out" or not taking advantage of the programs?

 

[BezO]

That's the whole point of the article. Programs like this are needed to circumvent the years of unequal practices.

OK. And there are other ways as well. Maybe I've been misunderstandin' you. You seem to be concentratin' on circumstances as opposed to overcomin' them. You seem to be talkin' down on programs.

Nothing's wrong with using the programs. They are great. It's just not segregation, infact the programs are an attempt at desegregation.

The original post of mine you quoted was a response to a guy saying "this is why we need to separate from white people"

You are here talking about a program that was written by and is supported by white people. That's not separation.

With the definition you gave, no, segregation is a difficult option. But how most folks define it, simply livin' in Black only communities, this exist today. But, instead of investin' in the existin' community, especially once public works begin, folks cash out. I live in such a neighborhood. I live in a city where this is goin' on throughout. I'm from a burough where this is goin' on. It's happened in Harlem. It's about to happen in the Bronx.

The entire system, for the most part, is run by whites. Are you sayin' to avoid programs, banks, etc to simply accomplish complete segregation? Are we to avoid money because the white man prints it? What are you sayin'?

You say I'm laying under the white mans foot, but you are here bragging about a program that "the white man" gave you.

I don't think you understand what the hell you are talking about here

And where are your numbers on how many black people are "cashing out" or not taking advantage of the programs?

Braggin'? Ha! I gave an example. As is, I can't avoid the white man's system without movin' to a land they haven't conquered. The white man runs the federal reserve. You want to avoid money all together?

I know what I'm talkin' about. I'm just not as extreme as you. Actually, I'm not really sure of your point. What is your point?

I don't care about numbers. I work in the field. I have counterparts in several cities. We have eyes.

How do you account for DC bein' down to 50% Black (there's a number for you)? How do you account for gentrification overall? Do you believe all of these people displaced renters?

 

[MrFantastic]

I'm not familiar with Chinatown at all.. But what you're saying is that Chinatown has its own Chinese funded/established/managed bank and their board of education is ran exclusively by Chinese people, they're local government is all Chinese, and also, their community is policed solely by Chinese people?

And lastly, they operate independently of the state of California?

I understand the overall point your making. But Asian people in Philadelphia got their own community, their own bank and their own individual counsel for each segement of the asian community.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

OK. And there are other ways as well. Maybe I've been misunderstandin' you. You seem to be concentratin' on circumstances as opposed to overcomin' them. You seem to be talkin' down on programs.

I'm not talking down on the programs. I'm talking about the need for their existence.

The entire system, for the most part, is run by whites.

And that's the point of my original statement. How do we truly separate and prosper if the system is run by whites with purposefully discriminative practices?

Are you sayin' to avoid programs, banks, etc to simply accomplish complete segregation? Are we to avoid money because the white man prints it? What are you sayin'?

No I'm saying complete segregation is a farse and even if achievable would be a bad idea. I welcome and appreciate the programs and I'm glad you were able to take advantage of one.

Braggin'? Ha! I gave an example. As is, I can't avoid the white man's system without movin' to a land they haven't conquered. The white man runs the federal reserve. You want to avoid money all together?

Exactly the point of my original statement.

"Outside armed uprising how could we ever be truly separate here in America?"

Seem like you and i are on the same page on the subject

I know what I'm talkin' about. I'm just not as extreme as you. Actually, I'm not really sure of your point. What is your point?

That inequality created the current condition, and attempting to wall ourselves off within America is not only not realistic, but a horrible idea.

I don't care about numbers. I work in the field. I have counterparts in several cities. We have eyes.

Numbers are facts. If you don't care about facts, why are you even talking here.

Here are some numbers for you.

http://streeteasy.com/blog/nyc-mortgage-access/

Read it when you get a chance.

Blacks get denied at a higher rate for conventional loans
Blacks and Hispanics take advantage of programs such as the ones you speak of at a higher rate than anybody else.

Those are facts. Your personal anecdotes can't change that.

How do you account for DC bein' down to 50% Black (there's a number for you)? How do you account for gentrification overall? Do you believe all of these people displaced renters?

Most are displaced renters. That's not even a question. That's why gentrification is seen as a bad thing. Those that own benefit from it whether they sell or not.


Some people get priced out even if they own due to property taxes going up.

 

[BezO]

I'm not talking down on the programs. I'm talking about the need for their existence.

Cool. But I think they would be necessary without race issues. There are class/wealth issues that I believe would still require their existance.

And that's the point of my original statement. How do we truly separate and prosper if the system is run by whites with purposefully discriminative practices?

There was segregation, as I'm definin' it, in this country not long ago. Not on a wide scale, but there were some prosperious Black communities durin' those times. Greenwood, Tulsa. Weeksville, Brooklyn. As a group, we have much more wealth today. We just don't use it collectively.

We separate & prosper, how I'm definin' it, by gainin' power collectively within the system. Complete segregation like havin' a country within a country? Nah.

No I'm saying complete segregation is a farse and even if achievable would be a bad idea. I welcome and appreciate the programs and I'm glad you were able to take advantage of one.

I agree as whites have a stronghold on too much of the infrastructure. We would be easy targets under the current circumstances.

Exactly the point of my original statement.

"Outside armed uprising how could we ever be truly separate here in America?"

Seem like you and i are on the same page on the subject

I didn't understand how segregated you were talkin' until a post or 2 ago.

That inequality created the current condition, and attempting to wall ourselves off within America is not only not realistic, but a horrible idea.

Got it. Agreed.

Numbers are facts. If you don't care about facts, why are you even talking here.

Here are some numbers for you.

A Homeownership Dream Deferred

Read it when you get a chance.

Blacks get denied at a higher rate for conventional loans
Blacks and Hispanics take advantage of programs such as the ones you speak of at a higher rate than anybody else.

Those are facts. Your personal anecdotes can't change that.

Numbers are results, grouped how the researcher wants to group them. Numbers don't speak to what could or should be done. Missed oportunities, uninformed owners & potential owners are facts not accounted for in these stats.

Of course Blacks are denied more often. We have less money & lower credit scores. I thought you were talkin' about qualified aplicants bein' denied.

I don't believe the programs I was referring to account for all FHA loans, but I'll take that lump.

Most are displaced renters. That's not even a question. That's why gentrification is seen as a bad thing. Those that own benefit from it whether they sell or not.

Some people get priced out even if they own due to property taxes going up.

Sellers don't benefit nearly as much as investors & new buyers. Sellers lose out on gains that could be made by improving homes. They're sellin' prior to large scale investment in these areas. And where are they buyin' afterwards? Not in appreciatin' areas or we wouldn't have this problem.

Risin' property taxes can knock older, non-workin' folks out. That's an unavoidable killer. Agreed. But my taxes have gone up $300 in 5 years. The property value is risin' much faster than the allowable rate increase.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

@BezO Segregation is whites only water fountains, and banks only giving loans to white people.

What you are speaking of is like minded people coming together for a common cause. That's great and that's what I think people should do.

The person I was originally responding to ment real segregation.

As for the rest of your post, it's just a different opinion/perspective.

You seem like a good guy, and I'm glad you are doing well for yourself. Keep fighting the good fight

 

[Red Shield]

Yes it is seriously insidious.

I don't even know if we can combat it by completely controlling the politics in our area, because even black politicians will pander and cater to poor black voters. And the one thing that those poor black voters are going to demand is to be able to live in middle class black neighborhoods; even though those poor black voters can't afford to buy homes in those neighborhoods. So the compromise will be housing vouchers to allow the poor blacks to live in middle class black neighborhoods that they couldn't afford to live in on their own dime; which in turn will drive down the home values of middle class black people in those neighborhoods.

I have sat back and studied this situation for a long time. It is not my imagination that almost every middle class black neighborhood eventually is targeted to be a ghetto because of Section 8 program. I would bet that most black middle class homeowners would like to stay in their neighborhoods, because most of the time they have spent a lot of money on their homes and they spend a lot more money to keep up their homes, neighborhoods and schools. But then a bunch of Shequesias, Ray-Rays and their kids show up with housing vouchers and then you have a ghetto. And that drives out black middle class and they in turn end up over paying to live in white middle class neighborhoods.

It is a vicious cycle meant to keep the black middle class in debt.

I think it's possible . We would just have to buy the politicians, so that we "own" them. Voting wouldn't mean shyt, if we're the ones funding them.

But yeah I agree with you. I don't gotta worry about it in my neighborhood, but if I did