Horn of Africa Regional Thread

[2Quik4UHoes]

Our brother @2Quik4UHoes is Amhara so you'll probably get the Amhara tinged view of things, however well he means.

He wants to Make Ethiopia Great Again when the lingua franca and default culture was Amharic ...and to hell with all that pesky decentralisation

I’m actually also Oromo and Tigray by way of Eritrea but let you tell it. I believe in Ethiopian unity and to characterize what I’m sayin as MAGA shyt when the opps run on a racist ethnic based divide and rule platform is laughable. Amharic is the most widely spoken language other than English in the country. How would it be efficient to not use it as a lingua franca? That’s no different than Swahili in Kenya or Tanzania. Culturally Ethiopia is mixed, there are influences from many tribes. Just because Amharas were a key group in centralizing the nation after decades of chaos doesn’t mean it’s exclusively Amhara in nature or scope.

Decentralization turned the country into a repressed state with extrajudicial killings and disappearances of activists. Nothing the TPLF did is redeemable other than beginning the GERD project. That aside, their political program was a failure and turned a country into a tinderbox of ethnic violence.

Waryas like you have some weird complex against a successful Ethiopia because they think it’s somehow Amhara driven when it’s driven by all the groups including the ones that suddenly want to act extra marginalized. Once we’re successful wiping out the Woyane scourge the country will finally be United and working towards a better future.

Don’t worry, we still gon keep doing security for y’all capital too.

 

[Trajan]

I’m actually also Oromo and Tigray by way of Eritrea but let you tell it. I believe in Ethiopian unity and to characterize what I’m sayin as MAGA shyt when the opps run on a racist ethnic based platform is laughable.

Waryas have some weird complex against a successful Ethiopia because they think it’s somehow Amhara driven when it’s driven by all the groups including the ones that suddenly want to act extra marginalized. Once we’re successful wiping out the Woyane scourge the country will finally be United and working towards a better future.

Don’t worry, we still gon keep doing security for y’all capital too.

I actually have no problem with Ethiopia and think instability/conflict is bad for the region. I also have no particular love for the TPLF.

Just how it comes across on the outside looking in ...whenever I've seen people decry decentralisation and call for a return to a strong central government they've tended to be Amhara.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

I actually have no problem with Ethiopia and think instability/conflict is bad for the region. I also have no particular love for the TPLF.

Just how it comes across on the outside looking in ...whenever I've seen people decry decentralisation and call for a return to a strong central government they've tended to be Amhara.

Well what exactly is redeemable about decentralization? What development came for any of the ethnic groups in the almost 30 years it’s been in place? If your not on some weirdo hatin shyt then pardon my words but I’m obviously triggered by this since it’s an existential threat to my loved ones.

With that said, there are other groups aside from Amharas that don’t agree with decentralization and want a return to the unified form of government. Just on a schematic level it’s been a abysmal failure, but even ethically and morally it’s incredibly irresponsible and an invitation to destabilize the entire region.

Abiy’s biggest mistake was releasing too many prisoners. Some of them were locked up for a reason. More cultural representation is one thing, but outright ethnic secessionist shyt which will Balkanize the region and leave everyone in extremely impoverished homogenous fiefdoms with no economic viability along with mass ethnic cleansing which could possibly exceed Rwanda in scale?

Keeping Ethiopia United imo is a matter of responsibility to the region and Africa as well as to the Ethiopian people. Much of the population is mixed, so it’s only the TPLF doctrine that taught hate and separation while they robbed the people blind. fukk the tribal shyt, I want that scum dead.

 

[Trajan]

Well what exactly is redeemable about decentralization? What development came for any of the ethnic groups in the almost 30 years it’s been in place? If your not on some weirdo hatin shyt then pardon my words but I’m obviously triggered by this since it’s an existential threat to my loved ones.

With that said, there are other groups aside from Amharas that don’t agree with decentralization and want a return to the unified form of government. Just on a schematic level it’s been a abysmal failure, but even ethically and morally it’s incredibly irresponsible and an invitation to destabilize the entire region.

Abiy’s biggest mistake was releasing too many prisoners. Some of them were locked up for a reason. More cultural representation is one thing, but outright ethnic secessionist shyt which will Balkanize the region and leave everyone in extremely impoverished homogenous fiefdoms with no economic viability along with mass ethnic cleansing which could possibly exceed Rwanda in scale?

Keeping Ethiopia United imo is a matter of responsibility to the region and Africa as well as to the Ethiopian people. Much of the population is mixed, so it’s only the TPLF doctrine that taught hate and separation while they robbed the people blind. fukk the tribal shyt, I want that scum dead.

Fam you know damn well in Africa politics is inherently ethnic/tribal. Tribal biases will undoubtedly creep into viewpoints even if unconsciously. As far as development and decentralisation, i could ask you the same question. Most people in these regions were poor and underdeveloped under a strong centralised government and remained the same with decentralisation. I take your point that ethnic regions are counterproductive and have raised tensions e.g border wars. At the same time im seeing (as an outsider) people proudly able to express their culture whereas previously Amharic was the default culture.

Also Jawar may be a rabblerouser but it's in Ethiopia's long term interest to deal with whatever grievances he's tapping into because clearly he had millions of people feeling him. Same with Tigray.. The leadership may be criminals but if they're intertwined with the local populace and they have a battle hardened force... The human cost of removing them might mean you sow the seeds for decades worth of grievances. Cracking heads might not always be the best approach

I believe the same in Somalia.. Siad Barre should've just held a referendum and let Somaliland go if they voted for it. Instead he killed 10s of thousands... Bombed cities.. Sowed hatred between people and he lost the entire country anyway forget the region

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Fam you know damn well in Africa politics is inherently ethnic/tribal. Tribal biases will undoubtedly creep into viewpoints even if unconsciously. As far as development and decentralisation, i could ask you the same question. Most people in these regions were poor and underdeveloped under a strong centralised government and remained the same with decentralisation. I take your point that ethnic regions are counterproductive and have raised tensions e.g border wars. At the same time im seeing (as an outsider) people proudly able to express their culture whereas previously Amharic was the default culture.

Also Jawar may be a rabblerouser but it's in Ethiopia's long term interest to deal with whatever grievances he's tapping into because clearly he had millions of people feeling him. Same with Tigray.. The leadership may be criminals but if they're intertwined with the local populace and they have a battle hardened force... The human cost of removing them might mean you sow the seeds for decades worth of grievances. Cracking heads might not always be the best approach

I believe the same in Somalia.. Siad Barre should've just held a referendum and let Somaliland go if they voted for it. Instead he killed 10s of thousands... Bombed cities.. Sowed hatred between people and he lost the entire country anyway forget the region

Any political position comes with biased positioning based on held principles. That isn’t something exclusive to Africa and it’s many tribes. I actually don’t disagree that Ethiopian culture has far too much depth to be solely driven by one group or another. However certain things require pragmatism. Amharic, regardless of the Imperial History, became the most widely spoken indigenous language in the country. I can agree that the Monarchy and Derg were one extreme. To me, the TPLF introduced the opposite extreme through their system. So while yes, one can admit that more groups went on to express themselves in their small provinces it never materialized on an economic or political level. I think all the languages should be celebrated, made official, etc etc. But outside of English, Amharic is the most logical choice for lingua franca. It actually disgusts me that Oromos extremists would say they’re somehow more African when they got rid of an indigenous African script for the Latin script just to spite Amharas.

Also, I can’t agree with Jawar or any of the TPLF hardliners being people to listen to. The only reason why is because their actions and rhetoric resulted in deaths and displacement. That’s like saying “Well hey, you should at least give Hitler a chance there are lots of people that like and agree with him.” There are plenty of Oromos and Tigrays that can argue their side without Jawar’s or TPLF’s racist platform. To me, they’re far too extreme to be listened too. Moreover, Jawar/OLF’s false history of Menelik kinda proves that they are a MAGA type fascist bunch spreading false narratives and hate speech against Amhara people in particular but the Ethiopian state any anyone who believes in it(Oromos included) as a whole. Funny since Jawar is also Yemeni, so much for the pure blood talk. I think Abiy’s best approach moving forward is to take the things that worked from past regimes and things that didn’t work and craft a proper nation out of that in which ideas and cultures can be fully expressed within the framework of nationhood.

I think you and I view things differently. Nations are only viable by the unity of their people, land, and it’s resources. Africa’s great flaw is believing that further Balkanization helps when it only makes for more poverty states for the IMF/World Bank. Also, Somalia is a homogenous society. If Ethiopia split under the current ethnic tensions it would surpass Rwanda in scale given that Ethiopian society is intermixed and all the groups live across the country in some way shape or form. It would also ignite further land disputes between the tribes which would then keep Ethiopia in a perpetual state of war. The last time this happened was the Zemene Mesafint (Age of Princes) in the mid 18th-19th century prior to Emperor Tewdros and the consolidation of the early modern Ethiopian state. A situation like that in the modern day would amount to a destabilized region entirely with the modern day weapons and methods of warfare.

In the end, I believe centralizing government more and getting rid of the ethnic based system is going to benefit Ethiopia. Everyone has a stake in the state. Destroying the elitism and cronyism will go a long way in creating a more equitable and modern society. This conflict is the growing pains that comes with development. If Ethiopia is serious, it’ll get through this rough patch and create a much stronger and longer lasting Union.

 

[Payday23]

Trump could step in personally and be peacemaker?

He thinks African countries are shytholes. He'll probably egg them on

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

He thinks African countries are shytholes. He'll probably egg them on

He wants his noble piece praise

 

[King Ming]

Guess this is how that dam is getting stopped

The official spokesperson for the Egyptian Armed Forces Tamer al-Refeai announced Saturday that Egyptian military units have arrived in Sudan to participate in joint military exercises.

Units from the air force and Egyptian commando forces arrived at the Marwa Air Base in Sudan to participate in the “Nile Eagles – 1” training session, Refeai wrote on Facebook.

This training, the first between the two close nations, will continue until November 26 and falls under the Egyptian Armed Forces’ joint training plan with friendly countries.

Refeai explained that the training will witness many activities, such as the planning and management of joint combat actions between Egyptian and Sudanese air forces.

Training will also include multi-role fighters from both sides carrying out offensive and defensive sorties on training targets, he added, as well as training commando forces on combat search and rescue work.

Egyptian units arrive in Sudan for military exercises - Egypt Independent

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Riiiiiight......

 

[thatrapsfan]

Any political position comes with biased positioning based on held principles. That isn’t something exclusive to Africa and it’s many tribes. I actually don’t disagree that Ethiopian culture has far too much depth to be solely driven by one group or another. However certain things require pragmatism. Amharic, regardless of the Imperial History, became the most widely spoken indigenous language in the country. I can agree that the Monarchy and Derg were one extreme. To me, the TPLF introduced the opposite extreme through their system. So while yes, one can admit that more groups went on to express themselves in their small provinces it never materialized on an economic or political level. I think all the languages should be celebrated, made official, etc etc. But outside of English, Amharic is the most logical choice for lingua franca. It actually disgusts me that Oromos extremists would say they’re somehow more African when they got rid of an indigenous African script for the Latin script just to spite Amharas.

Also, I can’t agree with Jawar or any of the TPLF hardliners being people to listen to. The only reason why is because their actions and rhetoric resulted in deaths and displacement. That’s like saying “Well hey, you should at least give Hitler a chance there are lots of people that like and agree with him.” There are plenty of Oromos and Tigrays that can argue their side without Jawar’s or TPLF’s racist platform. To me, they’re far too extreme to be listened too. Moreover, Jawar/OLF’s false history of Menelik kinda proves that they are a MAGA type fascist bunch spreading false narratives and hate speech against Amhara people in particular but the Ethiopian state any anyone who believes in it(Oromos included) as a whole. Funny since Jawar is also Yemeni, so much for the pure blood talk. I think Abiy’s best approach moving forward is to take the things that worked from past regimes and things that didn’t work and craft a proper nation out of that in which ideas and cultures can be fully expressed within the framework of nationhood.

I think you and I view things differently. Nations are only viable by the unity of their people, land, and it’s resources. Africa’s great flaw is believing that further Balkanization helps when it only makes for more poverty states for the IMF/World Bank. Also, Somalia is a homogenous society. If Ethiopia split under the current ethnic tensions it would surpass Rwanda in scale given that Ethiopian society is intermixed and all the groups live across the country in some way shape or form. It would also ignite further land disputes between the tribes which would then keep Ethiopia in a perpetual state of war. The last time this happened was the Zemene Mesafint (Age of Princes) in the mid 18th-19th century prior to Emperor Tewdros and the consolidation of the early modern Ethiopian state. A situation like that in the modern day would amount to a destabilized region entirely with the modern day weapons and methods of warfare.

In the end, I believe centralizing government more and getting rid of the ethnic based system is going to benefit Ethiopia. Everyone has a stake in the state. Destroying the elitism and cronyism will go a long way in creating a more equitable and modern society. This conflict is the growing pains that comes with development. If Ethiopia is serious, it’ll get through this rough patch and create a much stronger and longer lasting Union.

Its a tough question and one many diverse, big polities throughout Africa face. See Sudan, Nigeria etc. Did the TPLF introduce ethnic based politics or formalize existing facts on the ground? How did the militias that brought down the Derg form around ethnic lines in a state that was unitary/centralized? That to me, suggests those currents have always existed, regardless of state policy. If its a given that some form of ethnic organization will exist, whats the best way for a state as big as Ethiopia to deal with it? Rapid economic development would be the easiest answer, but how could this be best addressed in a country with such huge rural and urban cleavages? No easy answers, but I remain skeptical that it can be achieved by force alone. Especially when considering those same currents brought Abiy to power to begin with.

 

[thatrapsfan]

Didnt know the Ethiopian military has Chinese drones.

 

[ZoeGod]

Any political position comes with biased positioning based on held principles. That isn’t something exclusive to Africa and it’s many tribes. I actually don’t disagree that Ethiopian culture has far too much depth to be solely driven by one group or another. However certain things require pragmatism. Amharic, regardless of the Imperial History, became the most widely spoken indigenous language in the country. I can agree that the Monarchy and Derg were one extreme. To me, the TPLF introduced the opposite extreme through their system. So while yes, one can admit that more groups went on to express themselves in their small provinces it never materialized on an economic or political level. I think all the languages should be celebrated, made official, etc etc. But outside of English, Amharic is the most logical choice for lingua franca. It actually disgusts me that Oromos extremists would say they’re somehow more African when they got rid of an indigenous African script for the Latin script just to spite Amharas.

Also, I can’t agree with Jawar or any of the TPLF hardliners being people to listen to. The only reason why is because their actions and rhetoric resulted in deaths and displacement. That’s like saying “Well hey, you should at least give Hitler a chance there are lots of people that like and agree with him.” There are plenty of Oromos and Tigrays that can argue their side without Jawar’s or TPLF’s racist platform. To me, they’re far too extreme to be listened too. Moreover, Jawar/OLF’s false history of Menelik kinda proves that they are a MAGA type fascist bunch spreading false narratives and hate speech against Amhara people in particular but the Ethiopian state any anyone who believes in it(Oromos included) as a whole. Funny since Jawar is also Yemeni, so much for the pure blood talk. I think Abiy’s best approach moving forward is to take the things that worked from past regimes and things that didn’t work and craft a proper nation out of that in which ideas and cultures can be fully expressed within the framework of nationhood.

I think you and I view things differently. Nations are only viable by the unity of their people, land, and it’s resources. Africa’s great flaw is believing that further Balkanization helps when it only makes for more poverty states for the IMF/World Bank. Also, Somalia is a homogenous society. If Ethiopia split under the current ethnic tensions it would surpass Rwanda in scale given that Ethiopian society is intermixed and all the groups live across the country in some way shape or form. It would also ignite further land disputes between the tribes which would then keep Ethiopia in a perpetual state of war. The last time this happened was the Zemene Mesafint (Age of Princes) in the mid 18th-19th century prior to Emperor Tewdros and the consolidation of the early modern Ethiopian state. A situation like that in the modern day would amount to a destabilized region entirely with the modern day weapons and methods of warfare.

In the end, I believe centralizing government more and getting rid of the ethnic based system is going to benefit Ethiopia. Everyone has a stake in the state. Destroying the elitism and cronyism will go a long way in creating a more equitable and modern society. This conflict is the growing pains that comes with development. If Ethiopia is serious, it’ll get through this rough patch and create a much stronger and longer lasting Union.

This is a conversation that alot africans hate but need to understand centralization is needed. Alot many of the most successful countries have strong central government. Hell in the US the article of confederation flopped because it wasn't practical. Centralized governance is needed to keep a united people together. Many areas around the world used to be tribal where there was constant warfare with small fiefdoms and warlord states waging war with each other. History as shown as time went on one dominant tribe conquer the surrounding ones and boom you had a nation state. Africa was never able to get to that point because of European interference and colonialism. I have said this and its very unpopular but Africa needs bigger regional powers not Balkanization. The reason this is prevented also because the UN respects borders as they are. In other words if there was a Napoleon like leader in Ethiopia who wanted to create an East African empire the US and the west would prevent that from happening. Africa needs larger nations not smaller ones.

 

[thatrapsfan]

Looks like the Ethiopian army’s advance may already be stalling.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Its a tough question and one many diverse, big polities throughout Africa face. See Sudan, Nigeria etc. Did the TPLF introduce ethnic based politics or formalize existing facts on the ground? How did the militias that brought down the Derg form around ethnic lines in a state that was unitary/centralized? That to me, suggests those currents have always existed, regardless of state policy. If its a given that some form of ethnic organization will exist, whats the best way for a state as big as Ethiopia to deal with it? Rapid economic development would be the easiest answer, but how could this be best addressed in a country with such huge rural and urban cleavages? No easy answers, but I remain skeptical that it can be achieved by force alone. Especially when considering those same currents brought Abiy to power to begin with.

There’s no doubt that those currents existed. As I said, the former regimes represented the one extreme of too much repression or marginalization of the other groups. The TPLF’s system was made to address those factors but they ended up being suppressed while mockingly being paraded around as the final resolution to these problems.

I think there needs to be truth and reconciliation regarding aspects of our history. A more honest account without placing 21st century standards on people who are long dead just as a way to demonize groups.

Rapid development is definitely the number 1 priority. I think stability is key and having a quasi confederation has proven to not work so good with that unless there’s an authoritarian approach. Plenty of diasporans want to invest in the country and some have even gone back and opened businesses. So stability can bring a huge brain gain for the country. Plus it’s advantage as the host of the AU gives it a leg up in attracting other talented people from the continent and African diaspora.

Unity under common goals that a nation can get behind is a better solution. The grievances are out in the open so now ironing out the issues to make a stronger country in the long run isn’t a bad thing. The common enemy is poverty so that should be the common endgame. The GERD is the first huge step forward on that path.

This is a conversation that alot africans hate but need to understand centralization is needed. Alot many of the most successful countries have strong central government. Hell in the US the article of confederation flopped because it wasn't practical. Centralized governance is needed to keep a united people together. Many areas around the world used to be tribal where there was constant warfare with small fiefdoms and warlord states waging war with each other. History as shown as time went on one dominant tribe conquer the surrounding ones and boom you had a nation state. Africa was never able to get to that point because of European interference and colonialism. I have said this and its very unpopular but Africa needs bigger regional powers not Balkanization. The reason this is prevented also because the UN respects borders as they are. In other words if there was a Napoleon like leader in Ethiopia who wanted to create an East African empire the US and the west would prevent that from happening. Africa needs larger nations not smaller ones.

I agree with the regional state idea. East Africa in particular sit in a very advantageous part of the world but barely plays any role in the region at all. A United East Africa would be a nation that could have the economic viability and geopolitical importance to be a top player in the world. The EAC has the right idea entirely, the Horn and Sudan together with them would take that idea into overdrive.

 

[JBoy]

learned a lot more shyt about Ethiopian politics from this thread