Hillary Clinton calls on Europe to curb migration to halt populists

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

THIS IS WHY NAFTA WAS DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!

IF YOU STRENGTHEN THEIR ECONOMIES, FEWER OF THEM HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO MIGRATE!!!!!

lmao, that's not what the argument for NAFTA was....that's just the best argument we actually have for it nowadays..i actually agree with it, but tough sell to people here in this country

the thing people don't realize though is that you're going to wish it was Merkel and others creating the legal framework to dealing with this issue and not whatever right wing government comes into power in a few years

 

[chico25]

Wow. You listened!

1. I don't dislike immigration as a whole. I support legal immigration. I'm even open to reform of LEGAL immigration because job categories and visa types have changed as well as certain terms for things like student visas. i've worked with PhD and grad students who had to leave after graduation because they couldn't secure work visas in time. That hurts the country.
   
2. I'm not against asylum. I do think most latin american refugees have gamed the system over the last 40 years compared to other parts of the world with more valid claims in my eyes but thats a longer conversation.
   
3. My parents did it the right way. They got green cards. They came legally. They paid their fees and took the test for citizenship. I remember helping them study for that test. Whats the point of letting illegals jump that line whle you have law-abiding, rule-following people who get skipped waiting for their time to become official?
   
4. Democrats support more of my world view of a rational compassionate and realistic secular policy.

I appreciate you answering most of what I asked. I agree that the country needs to reform our legal immigration system. I also understand the feeling behind not wanting someone to take a shortcut on something you and your family worked hard for but I don't think that should be the basis for policymaking. It's partly the same argument that's made against tuition reform for college students. Some people feel that because they had to work to pay off their loans no one after them should get by without dealing with student loans. The fact is the purpose of progress is to make things better and in some cases easier for the next generation. Does that mean that we should allow everyone who wants to come here into the country, of course not, but we should improve our immigration courts to allow people who may have a legitimate asylum case to plead it and have it reviewed in a timely and fair manner. Otherwise we run the risk of either being gamed, as you say, because the courts are overwhelmed, or sending people back into deadly situations for the same reason. Additionally if we want to curb illegal immigration we have to go after the businesses that employ them. Some people say that simply by being here these people are committing a crime, since that's technically true anyone giving them money is aiding and abetting a crime and should be punished accordingly. That's the only way to really solve the problem.

Also one question that you didn't answer, do you believe that if Europe stated that they would no longer accept refugees that right wing populists would quit or lose support?

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

lmao, that's not what the argument for NAFTA was....that's just the best argument we actually have for it nowadays..i actually agree with it, but tough sell to people here in this country

the thing people don't realize though is that you're going to wish it was Merkel and others creating the legal framework to dealing with this issue and not whatever right wing government comes into power in a few years

If NAFTA Goes Away, Treaty's Immigration Benefits Will Disappear

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

I appreciate you answering most of what I asked.

Sure

I agree that the country needs to reform our legal immigration system. I also understand the feeling behind not wanting someone to take a shortcut on something you and your family worked hard for but I don't think that should be the basis for policymaking.

Why not? Policy starts somewhere.

It's partly the same argument that's made against tuition reform for college students. Some people feel that because they had to work to pay off their loans no one after them should get by without dealing with student loans.

Thats totally irrelevant. Its a totally different non-overlapping issue. Don't do that. On top of that, some illegal immigrants in some states get more benefits for college than some actual citizens do and that visa carrying residents can't even enjoy.

The fact is the purpose of progress is to make things better and in some cases easier for the next generation.

Is it? I would agree, but it depends on the issue. To treat everything this way is dogmatic. Fact is, policy is not always permanent. Just like Reagan offering temporary amnesty applications in the 80s. That didn't fix the situation we're facing now

Does that mean that we should allow everyone who wants to come here into the country, of course not

...so what are we arguing??????????

, but we should improve our immigration courts to allow people who may have a legitimate asylum case to plead it and have it reviewed in a timely and fair manner.

Sure. This just means more of them won't get asylum. I hope you know this and are OK with this. But hey, if you want more of them to get in front of a judge, more power to them.

FYI, a lot of illegals who actually are caught entering illegally AND see a judge (not just asylum seeking) thats when they incur the penalty of 5-20 years expulsion where they cant return to the country.

Otherwise we run the risk of either being gamed, as you say, because the courts are overwhelmed, or sending people back into deadly situations for the same reason.

Agreed. But not all situations are "deadly"

I really hate the framing on that.

Additionally if we want to curb illegal immigration we have to go after the businesses that employ them.

Agreed. But immigration often doesn't like bankrupting businesses who do it and financial penalties is often the most stringent punishment. Its rare for employers to go to jail for housing/employing dozens of illegals knowingly.

Some people say that simply by being here these people are committing a crime, since that's technically true anyone giving them money is aiding and abetting a crime and should be punished accordingly. That's the only way to really solve the problem.

Yeah, but I dont really see the point of what you're saying.

Overstaying a visa by more than a year can subject you to a 10 year ban from the country. There are penalties for this stuff.

Also one question that you didn't answer, do you believe that if Europe stated that they would no longer accept refugees that right wing populists would quit or lose support?

Yes.

Remember, a lot of their popularity boosted in response to a rejection of refugees.

I think Europe had a moral obligation to take them in...but there is a limit and its been 7-8 years of Syria, almost 10 years in the entire migrant crisis. Europe is wondering when enough is enough and frankly you can't blame them. This was not going to go on forever.

 

[mbewane]

Immigration as a scape-goat is undefeated

Clinton trying to get those MAGA/HYON votes

 

[GodinDaFlesh]

No one is a xenophobe here.

If they want to come, do it legally.

I don't support illegal immigration, but I have yet to hear any politician on either side talk about punishing the employers that hire them, which is the only logical way to deal with it.

 

[killacal]

You dont care about black american labor.

This hindu fakkit is running out of links and talking points

क्या वक़्त है जीने का

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

If NAFTA Goes Away, Treaty's Immigration Benefits Will Disappear

that's not the argument being made WHEN NAFTA WAS INITIALLY PROPOSED/PASSED....

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

Literally No one believes you all are black.

i'd venture to guess more people in this thread believe in QANON then that nap is black.

 

[Robbie3000]

Immigration as a scape-goat is undefeated

Clinton trying to get those MAGA/HYON votes

This bytch has some nerve. The same wars she supported as senator is what caused an influx of immigrants to Europe. The same coup that she supported as Secretary of State in Honduras is one of the main causes for rise of refugees from Central america.

How can one person be so wrong on so may issues and still have a shot at the presidency? Twice!!

 

[chico25]

Sure
Why not? Policy starts somewhere.
Thats totally irrelevant. Its a totally different non-overlapping issue. Don't do that. On top of that, some illegal immigrants in some states get more benefits for college than some actual citizens do and that visa carrying residents can't even enjoy.
Is it? I would agree, but it depends on the issue. To treat everything this way is dogmatic. Fact is, policy is not always permanent. Just like Reagan offering temporary amnesty applications in the 80s. That didn't fix the situation we're facing now
...so what are we arguing??????????
Sure. This just means more of them won't get asylum. I hope you know this and are OK with this. But hey, if you want more of them to get in front of a judge, more power to them.

FYI, a lot of illegals who actually are caught entering illegally AND see a judge (not just asylum seeking) thats when they incur the penalty of 5-20 years expulsion where they cant return to the country.
Agreed. But not all situations are "deadly"

I really hate the framing on that.
Agreed. But immigration often doesn't like bankrupting businesses who do it and financial penalties is often the most stringent punishment. Its rare for employers to go to jail for housing/employing dozens of illegals knowingly.

Yeah, but I dont really see the point of what you're saying.

Overstaying a visa by more than a year can subject you to a 10 year ban from the country. There are penalties for this stuff.


Yes.

Remember, a lot of their popularity boosted in response to a rejection of refugees.

I think Europe had a moral obligation to take them in...but there is a limit and its been 7-8 years of Syria, almost 10 years in the entire migrant crisis. Europe is wondering when enough is enough and frankly you can't blame them. This was not going to go on forever.

I'm fine with people being deported if they've had a fair and speedy trial with all circumstances considered. I don't think that's happening now. I framed the situation as some asylum seekers being sent to deadly situations because it has happened, that's not every case but it is the case in some instances as people have been killed after being denied asylum and sent to their home country.

My point in bringing up the separate issue is that policy built on selfish emotion usually doesn't serve the greatest good. If we aren't trying to make things better then what the hell are we doing? We can't make a perfect world but we should be striving for a better one. What are some issues where you think things shouldn't get better for the next generation?

As for what I'm saying regarding aiding and abetting, we have people who cross the border to this country, which is a crime. These people would not be able to continue living in this country without the support of employers, these employers should be held accountable. If a few companies are very publicly bankrupted by fines and penalties imposed for these crimes other companies will stop taking those risks and people will stop crossing the border because of a lack of financial incentive. If a business can't survive without paying American citizens at least the minimum wage then it shouldn't be a business. The only argument against this is that businesses love cheap, disposable labor and government doesn't want to rock the boat against businesses.

It won't stop overstaying visas but that's a more manageable problem due to them being in the immigration system already. Those also aren't the people being made the face of the immigration issue and the ones that Republicans use as the target of their attacks on the issue.

I disagree that right wing populists will lose steam if Europe was to state that they would stop taking in more refugees. I think at that point they turn their attention to getting rid of the refugees that are already there and using them as a scapegoat for any problem that their supporters are facing. That's the strategy that is being used here and as you say it's about perception. Many of the states that supported Trump in his anti immigration stance have very small immigrant populations but they were sold on a problem they perceived to be real. The number of refugees isn't the problem, it's racism.

 

[88m3]

only problem i have with this is that her little stunt in libya helped precipitate a lot of this.

Uh, people are transiting through Libya, they're not Libyans for the most part...

Refugees would still be transiting to the EU regardless

10's of millions of migrants aren't going to the EU, you sounds like a Breitbart article

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

Uh, people are transiting through Libya, they're not Libyans for the most part...

Refugees would still be transiting to the EU regardless

10's of millions of migrants aren't going to the EU, you sounds like a Breitbart article

and u dont think the fact that there was no functioning government in libya for years affects the ability of people to use it as a transiting point?

you dont think civil war creates a situation where that becomes easier?

i will withdraw/retract my tens of millions comment - was not meant to be an exact count to date. but i dont think my point otherwise is off base.

 

[88m3]

and u dont think the fact that there was no functioning government in libya for years affects the ability of people to use it as a transiting point?

you dont think civil war creates a situation where that becomes easier?

i will withdraw/retract my tens of millions comment - was not meant to be an exact count to date. but i dont think my point otherwise is off base.

No more than the country they transition through. If it wasn't Libya it would be another route, they adjust to conditions, and data supports that. Pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Thanks. It's dangerous to perpetuate lies. I think it was Italy's PM recently who said hundreds of thousands of people were landing in Italy everyday.

 

[GnauzBookOfRhymes]

No more than the country they transition through. If it wasn't Libya it would be another route, they adjust to conditions, and data supports that. Pretty irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Thanks. It's dangerous to perpetuate lies. I think it was Italy's PM recently who said hundreds of thousands of people were landing in Italy everyday.

cmon man it's not irrelevant...turkey is the gateway from the middle east and beyond...libya was gateway from africa, that is not in dispute. numbers skyrocketed post qaddafi b/c he was basically paid by the europeans (esp the italians) to limit human smuggling. after he was gone and any semblance of law/order broke down, the smugglers began to operate freely.