Fact: the first rappers wasnt from da Bronx... they was Pimps down south

up in here

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Ok son, slow down before you hurt yaself. The reason Herc and them rejected disco is really simple, disco was some gay shyt. im not just talking about the music. im talking about the whole Disco club scene in NY. Sure it started out with Blacks and Latinos but it wasn't long before homosexuals took that shyt and ran with it. it wasn't the same party no more. Disco clubs became major spots for gay folks to meet and party and be free. and if you like that kinda thing thats cool but thats not what everyone wanted. Alotta folks didn't like the disco scene cause they was uncomfortable around all that gay shyt. Thats why the pioneers was like "this aint disco". even if they played some of the same music it was an entirely different scene. thats also why disco djs aint get props for doing that shyt, cause they didn't cultivate the hip-hop scene the same way Herc did, they was happy just being disco djs. Herc on the other hand separated what he was doing from the disco shyt. he gave folks a place where they could feel comfortable. it wasn't on some straight up "no gays allowed" shyt, but it was a little less glossy, it was a little rougher and more intune with the street. and i know some of the early mc's also dressed crazy by todays standars but they wasn't on no gay shyt though.
 

bouncy

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Ok son, slow down before you hurt yaself. The reason Herc and them rejected disco is really simple, disco was some gay shyt. im not just talking about the music. im talking about the whole Disco club scene in NY. Sure it started out with Blacks and Latinos but it wasn't long before homosexuals took that shyt and ran with it. it wasn't the same party no more. Disco clubs became major spots for gay folks to meet and party and be free. and if you like that kinda thing thats cool but thats not what everyone wanted. Alotta folks didn't like the disco scene cause they was uncomfortable around all that gay shyt. Thats why the pioneers was like "this aint disco". even if they played some of the same music it was an entirely different scene. thats also why disco djs aint get props for doing that shyt, cause they didn't cultivate the hip-hop scene the same way Herc did, they was happy just being disco djs. Herc on the other hand separated what he was doing from the disco shyt. he gave folks a place where they could feel comfortable. it wasn't on some straight up "no gays allowed" shyt, but it was a little less glossy, it was a little rougher and more intune with the street. and i know some of the early mc's also dressed crazy by todays standars but they wasn't on no gay shyt though.
All that was nonsense that you posted!.

First, the dj's before herc wasn't always in the clubs so that kills your argument for disco being where gays felt free and nobody else wanted to go there.

second, everybody wanted to be part of the disco scene. I heard caz say they couldn't get jnto studio 54 and thats why they did their own thing, not they didnt like the disco scene. All this gay shyt that is always talked about now, it wasnt like that back then or even in the 90's, at least in nyc. Yeah, there wer gay people but, you paid them no mind. You might crack a joke or two but, it wasnt like it is now. It seems like gay shyt is always on peoples mind, I don't get it. People are obsessed with either being called gay, doing gay stuff, or finding out who is gay. Wtf?. Maybe it has to do with the women being more in charge in the households and the media because this gay obsession is getting out of hand.

third, herc was a business man and capitalized off of the jams. He didnt know it would be so big, and the ones who became big would give him props. I just think its foul for him to not correct them and tell the people who he got his shyt from. Or maybe he didnt know because he was still young. He was just doing what everyone he liked did. Like the guy in the video @IllmaticDelta posted said that herc created mixing with two turntables and created the fader. That is total lies. The thing that set the bronx a part from other boroughs was that they were rhyming with routines and battling each other. Thats what helped push hip hop to everyone else. The dj thing and rhyming here and there, was going on before herc. Hip hop,was a black, latin, and a little white, NYC culture thing. Brooklyn, and queens brought the dj thing to the forefront with the massive soundsystems, and djing techniques,, and the bronx brought the rapping and breaking to the forefront. It wasn't just one person who started hip hop, it was a culture that grew in the nyc with numerous people. But that ego is the reason one person is given the credit, the bronx wants to be seen as the headliners of hip hop.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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Ok son, slow down before you hurt yaself. The reason Herc and them rejected disco is really simple, disco was some gay shyt. im not just talking about the music. im talking about the whole Disco club scene in NY. Sure it started out with Blacks and Latinos but it wasn't long before homosexuals took that shyt and ran with it.

The gay Disco scene is/was overemphasized. There was a straight black overground scene too. People like Dj Hollywood, Eddie Cheeba ,Pete Dj Jones, Grandmaster Flowers etc.. were part of the straight black scene. Read below..


Pete was Flash’s greatest inspiration. Why? Because he kept the beat.



Pete Jones was the leading DJ in a scene which has never been accorded much importance. Plenty has now been written about disco’s gay black underground of the Loft, the Gallery and the Paradise Garage; this was disco’s straight black overground. It was a close-knit scene of mobile DJs who’d set up their rigs in hotel ballrooms (the Sheridan and notably the Diplomat, which Pete saw trashed by the crowd in a cross-state battle when he took on Newark’s finest DJs – Steak and Red) and in otherwise underpopulated restaurants. Places with names like Pub Theatrical, Jimmy’s, Gasky’s, Adrian’s, Hillside Manor, The Loft (no relation), Nell Gwynn’s… right across Manhattan, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens and New Jersey. Besides Pete, the other players were Cameron ‘Grandmaster’ Flowers, the scene’s founding big-shot who sadly ended his days panhandling outside Tower Records (and who was also an early graffiti writer), Maboya, a Panamanian who pioneered outdoor parties at Riis Beach before returning to Central America, and Ron Plummer a chemistry graduate who shot to fame as the scene’s Deejay Of The Year 1975 before heading off to medical school in Boston. The biggest boost to their fortunes, Pete recalls, was the beef crisis of 1971, which left restaurants empty and desperate. As ‘Where’s the beef?’ became the catchphrase of the day, disco came to the rescue with wily promoters turning eateries into niteries. “After they’d finished serving the last meal they’d start throwing the tables to one side and put the chairs on top of each other, put a makeshift bar up and the place would be jam packed until four in the morning.”

100% straight








vs the gay/mixed Disco clubs

While the music they played was hardly ground-breaking, rarely veering too far from the playlists of black radio, Pete and his peers were key in spreading the innovations of the more underground clubs to a wider audience, an audience that included the black population of the Bronx. Beatmatching, cuts and blends (or “running” records, as Pete calls it) were required skills on the gay scene thanks to pioneers like Terry Noel, Francis Grasso, Steve D’Acquisto and Michael Cappello. Grandmaster Flowers, who’d been playing since 1967, as well as Plummer, Maboya and Pete Jones himself, deserve credit for developing the same skills at the same time and – crucial to our story – for showing them off to the wide world of greater New York.



“They would say that Flowers was a mixer and I was a chopper,” says Pete, describing Grandmaster Flowers’ style as being closest to the DJs in the gay clubs. “Flowers was an expert mixer. He didn’t chop too many of the records, he would bleeend. Plummer was a mixer also, but I liked to chop, I liked to get the beat – BANG! BANG! – I loved to chop. Even before I had a cueing system, I liked to chop them records up.” Emphasising his claims, Pete says he had two copies of everything. “I’d play a record over and over again, because you didn’t have many hits in those days, and you had to keep playing until four or five in the morning. So you’d play it over again and you’d shine a light on that groove and play it awhile. Best part of the record is usually that groove part,” he says with a chuckle.
http://www.djhistory.com/features/grandmaster-flash-true-life-adventures









it wasn't the same party no more. Disco clubs became major spots for gay folks to meet and party and be free. and if you like that kinda thing thats cool but thats not what everyone wanted.




Alotta folks didn't like the disco scene cause they was uncomfortable around all that gay shyt. Thats why the pioneers was like "this aint disco". even if they played some of the same music it was an entirely different scene. thats also why disco djs aint get props for doing that shyt, cause they didn't cultivate the hip-hop scene the same way Herc did, they was happy just being disco djs.


The herc crowd were basically underage teens who were salty they couldn't get into the more middle class/educated crowds in the Disco clubs.


PBZGj0I.jpg




Herc on the other hand separated what he was doing from the disco shyt. he gave folks a place where they could feel comfortable. it wasn't on some straight up "no gays allowed" shyt, but it was a little less glossy, it was a little rougher and more intune with the street.

yes, the early park jams were intended to be a ghetto/hood version of the Disco clubs.
 

IllmaticDelta

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third, herc was a business man and capitalized off of the jams. He didnt know it would be so big, and the ones who became big would give him props.

Herc is the one all the people from the Bronx point to because he was the first one in their area to make a name for himself.

I just think its foul for him to not correct them and tell the people who he got his shyt from. Or maybe he didnt know because he was still young.

Herc is before Flash and Baambatta but not before Disco King Mario. He mentioned in interviews about Disco Dj's influenced him early but he doesn't really mention names.

He was just doing what everyone he liked did. Like the guy in the video @IllmaticDelta posted said that herc created mixing with two turntables and created the fader. That is total lies.

true

The thing that set the bronx a part from other boroughs was that they were rhyming with routines and battling each other. Thats what helped push hip hop to everyone else.

What really set the Herc crowd from the Disco crowd was the bboys. As I said before, Herc started out playing the entire song/record from the genres of Soul, Funk, Commercial Disco and even reggae. It was the dancers at his jams that forced him into Hardcore Funk and Disco-Funk with the funky drummer parts.

The dj thing and rhyming here and there, was going on before herc. Hip hop,was a black, latin, and a little white, NYC culture thing. Brooklyn, and queens brought the dj thing to the forefront with the massive soundsystems, and djing techniques,, and the bronx brought the rapping and breaking to the forefront. It wasn't just one person who started hip hop, it was a culture that grew in the nyc with numerous people. But that ego is the reason one person is given the credit, the bronx wants to be seen as the headliners of hip hop.

This is the true timeline of HipHop culture gathered from numerous sources.

Herc put it on, all these other cats laid foundation and added ingredients but herc pulled all that shyt together and put it on.

This isn't true. If anthing it goes something like this.

1965--> (graffiti)

1. Not even from New York, it'sfrom Philly and is the oldest element of HipHop culture.

1968-1972 (early dj's)

2. As far as playing music, Disco/park DJ's dating back to the late 1960's/1970-1972 were the early spark. This is people like Pete Dj Jones, Grandmaster Flowers, Maboya and Disco King Mario. They all predate Herc. While Dj's like Pete DJ Jones, Maboya and Flowers were actual professional Dj's with blends, beatmatching etc from all over..King Mario was actually just a hood dude from the Black Spades that was a more direct influence on the Bronx scene of Herc and Baambatta. The other dudes were from all over/elsewhere. These are 2 turntables/2 copies of the same record and mixer types. King Mario is the only one that played mainly to kids/underage teens. The other DJ's played to older teens/adult in Clubs and then kids every now and then in the parks



1970-1975 (rapping)

3. Disco DJ's were hands down the first to the do syncopated rhyming to the beat. It's not even up for debate. DJ Hollywood was the early pioneer around 1971 and then people like Cheeba and Lovebug Starski followed. They were in Harlem, Manhattan etc..


* A Disco Dj/Rapper, LuvBug Starski coined the term "HipHop" somewhere around/after 1975




1973 (the Herc Bronx scene was born)

4. Herc comes along and is playing music on one turntable and is just playing the music he likes, which could be a mix of Soul, Funk, Disco and reggae. He was basically playing to kids/younger teens in the parks. They let him know they don't like Reggae and want him to stick more to the Soul, Funky-Disco and Hardcore Funk. One day he realizes that many people in the crowd started bugging out at the the point of the record when everything stops but the Funky drumming/bass parts. The bulb goes off in Herc's head to use the Disco technique of mixing 2 records at of the same record on 2 turntables. Herc only goes to the break part and it calls it the "Merry Go Round".

The people that would dance to these record breakdowns ended up being called break dancers.




1975/1976 (rapping in the bronx)

5. Rapping (syncopated rhyming to the beat) in the Herc based Bronx scene didn't even exist before 1975/1976 and it came from Melle Mel and Cowboy. Neither Herc or Coke La Rock rapped on the Mic. They did straight up freelance talking and shout outs. This is acknowledge by Herc himself and numerous early Bronx rappers who attended his jams.

Modern HipHop from a musical stand point came about after the best of the Disco Dj's rappers combined with the Hardcore Funk or Breakbeats of the Herc scene.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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Interesting riff between Herc and Bambattas camp (Zulu Nation) on the origin of HipHop culture. Who said there was no debate on the origins from the Og's?:mjlol:


Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture

AllHipHop News) There has been a lot of fanfare over the past week in celebration of what has been reported as the 40th anniversary of the birth of Hip Hop.
DJ Kool Herc is one originator that has become almost synonymous with the creation of the culture, but Quadeer “M.C. Spice” Shakur of the Universal Zulu Nation released a statement announcing that Hip Hop did not begin with Herc’s famous party at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx on August 11, 1973.

According to Shakur, Herc is a founding father of Hip-Hop, but he has been misrepresenting his role in the founding of Hip Hop on various news outlets.

The Zulu Nation Minister of Information also states that Kool Herc has asked his name not be included in any Zulu Nation Hip Hop Culture anniversary flyers several of years ago.


In portions of his statement titled “MISREPRESENTATION OF A CULTURE BY A FOREFATHER”, Shakur writes:

Herc is our brother, but when our family strays from us, we must first forgive them for mistakes, but let them know of their wrongdoings, and of course, welcome them back with open arms. We could go on forever about how many artists who are heavily a part of, or were a part of the Universal Zulu Nation, know and understand how serious this is. By no means should ANY of us attempt to change the course of history and flip it for a dollar or for accolades from an industry of Culture Vultures called “the media”, when we have known and still do know that many in the media want the false, doctored-up UN-truths, not the REAL truth. Especially when it comes to Hip-Hop. What is further disturbing is the falsehood that Kool Herc failed to respect the TRUE first ladies of Hip-Hop: ShaRock, Lisa Lee, Debbie Dee, Queen Amber. The women who were there ON THE MIC representing this Culture. Kool Herc went as far as saying his SISTER is the “first lady of Hip-Hop”. Kool Herc’s sister is also his marketing rep, and is part of promoting the falsehood that she (Cindy) is the “First Lady” of Hip-Hop. That’s NOT TRUE.

Kool Herc, aka Clive Campbell DID NOT BIRTH HIP-HOP CULTURE 40 YEARS AGO ON AUGUST 11, 1973. In fact, Kool Herc only did a Back To School JAM in the recreation room at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx. No emcees were present, no “Hip-Hop” was present (a term heavily used by LoveBug Starski and Keith Cowboy), and the Zulu Nation was already in effect. THIS is the reason for this message. Please get a pen and write this down, or go stand near the chalkboard and write this one hundred times to make SURE you remember: HIP-HOP CULTURE IS 39 YEARS OLD…ZULU NATION IS 40 YEARS OLD.

Some may say there’s no difference, and it’s only a year. But truth is, Kool Herc appears to be working with outside forces to overstep and outshine what is taking place THIS November 12th: The 40th Anniversary of the Universal Zulu Nation. Do you know how big that really is? How dangerous that really is? That so many brothers and sisters of the same accord have been together THIS strong for THIS long?

To be forthcoming about the FACTS concerning this message, we MUST inform those who are a part of this Culture that Universal Zulu Nation does NOT condone falsehoods with respects to this Culture of ours. Kool Herc may have done PARTIES, but a PARTY does NOT represent a MOVEMENT. Nor does a PARTY CREATE a movement. But the CULTURE of Hip-Hop CREATED a MOVEMENT and REPRESENTS a movement. Zulu represents and always WILL represent the four spiritual PRINCIPLES of The Culture: Peace, Unity, Love and Having Fun. We also promoted and rocked parties UTILIZING the five physical ELEMENTS of the Culture: Deejaying, Graffitti, Breakdancing, Emceeing and KNOWLEDGE. I would hope that Herc would adhere to the KNOWLEDGE of our Culture and refrain form the misrepresentation and falsehoods. This message is to inform you that there is NO TRUTH to what you have been hearing about Kool Herc and Hip-Hop having a 40th anniversary. Maybe Kool HERC was deejaying for 40 years. Maybe so. But Kool Herc has nothing to do with the TERM “Hip-Hop”. It was a Culture he was INVITED to once our founder Afrika Bambaataa FOUNDED the Culture USING the term. That said, I would venture to say that perhaps Kool Herc’s SOUND system , “The Herculords” is 40 years old, but not Hip-Hop. Give it another year, Herc. And give it a rest. We love you, but we MUST correct you, brother. Happy 39th birthday, Hip-Hop. Happy 40th Birthday, Zulu Nation.

http://allhiphop.com/2013/08/20/zul...t-hip-hop-and-is-misrepresenting-the-culture/


A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc scene..

"I'm Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 and the minister of information of the Zulu nation is a clown and so is ANYONE else if after 40 years of Hip-hop culture and agreeing that DJ Kool Herc is the father of Hip-hop so why would that have changed after 40 years? I used to be in Bronx river when the Zulu nation began and the Zulu nation began in 1977-78 and Kool Herc began in 1973 so do the math and the Zulu nation were still the Black Spades during the "Blackout" of 1977 and shortly afterwards became the Bronx river organization and then the Zulu nation and honestly the people who are considered to be forefathers of the Hip-hop culture actually changed the game by adding to it and Everyone who was truly there you knew who did what and we know who set trends or brought something to the game to change it and Bambaataa and the Zulu nation didn't change the game! Grandmaster Flash Changed the game!!!!! Kool Herc is the genesis of the game and Bambaataa added what? More beats? STOP IT!!!!!!!!"

^^It's well known Herc is before Baambatta and Flash.


Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!"

Again, confirms everything I've said the whole time. Disco Dj's are the ones who started that syncopated rhyming (rapping) style. Totally different flavor from what Jamaican toasters/deejays were doing like U-Roy and the examples I gave earlier in the thread. Numerous people from the Herc scene acknowledge that there was no rapping in the Herc scene before like 1976 and that all Herc and his boys did was basically freelance shout outs.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Some other takes on rapping and the Disco Dj's vs Bronx bboys dynamic...


KID CREOLE from Furious 5


JayQuan : Peace ; its an honor to speak to you , what year did you start Emceeing and who made you want to Emcee ?


Creole : It was around ' 75 , Mel was hangin' out with Flash & them - thats how I got associated with Flash.
herc20flyer.gif
We used to go to Kool Herc parties ; really anybody that had equipment we would go see them in the parks. Herc was one of the few Djs that had legitimate equipment and he would have inside parties and charge people . They didn't have a distinction between who was the Dj and who was the Emcee , because all the Djs Emceed . Pete Dj Jones and those cats had the Hank Span Disc Jockey voice. Timmy Tim , Clark Kent and Coke La Rock were three guys who were down with Herc . Tim & Clark Kent would say phrases like " on down till the A.M. " or " back & forth / forth & back " - just lil phrases , not full rhymes. They would say either nursery rhymes or stuff that the Last Poets had said. My sister Linda used to write poetry , so thats how we were introduced to it in general . Tim & Clark Kent would say it to the beat ; even though it wasn't that rhythmic. It was like " A taste of the pace with the bass in ya face". Because it was done in that pattern we wrote rhymes that were to that pattern. So for me it was Timmy Tim , Clark Kent , My Brother (Mele Mel) and my sister.


JQ : Im told that you and Mel were the first to split words between each other & go back & forth.


CR : Yeah , when we first started rhyming we wrote everything together , so it was a natural progression.


JQ : How about the " throw ya hands in the air " and all the call and response tactics ;
flashmelcreole.jpg
are you all responsible for that ?


CR : We weren't the first , but it was an evolution. Hollywood had mad crowd responses like "where's that place we work it out?" And the crowd responded "at the Alps (hotel) is where we work it out". We thought it was so fly . Cowboy really excelled at that kinda thing , lyrically he wasn't at the level of me & Mel , but he had no fear of asking the crowd to say this or do that.


.
.
.

FUNKY 4 + 1

JQ : So who was the first person you ever saw Emcee...and who influenced you ?

LRC : The first person I ever saw Emcee was Keith Cowboy . He was a crowd motivator....he was mostly doin chants . The person that made me say that I can do this is Melle Mel....he really influenced me . Kid Creole was an early Emcee too . Hollywood and Starski and all those cats will tell you that they were first . They are right to an extent , but there were two classes of Hip Hop at the time...Disco & then the hard B Boys that used breakbeats . Hollywood and them were Disco Djs. Also Mel & Creole were the first Emcees to do back & forth rhyming.


http://www.thafoundation.com/funk4int.htm
 

IllmaticDelta

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From Markskillz,the HipHop historian

Ok, time to hype my own site. If you really want to get quotes on this subject ya need to check out the articles I've been writing for the last three years. I have covered this part of the story extensively the whole "disco side" of hip-hop thing. Go over to my site http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com and check it out for yourselves.

Here's Eddie Cheba
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/09/ ... -yall.html

Here's Reggie Wells
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ... tunes.html

Here's DJ Hollywood
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... ywood.html

Here's both Pete DJ Jones and Kool DJ Herc along with AJ
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... house.html

Here's the story of Disco Fever
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... fever.html

And finally in this one the Rise of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five you here from Mel himself what he heard Coke La Rock and Timmy Tim doing
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2008/06/ ... se-of.html

Some basics that I have uncovered: Sometime in the early 70's deejays in Manhattan (more than likely KC the Prince of Soul started this) started talking "slick stuff" on the mic. Not to the beat and not even rhyming but saying slick s--t that flowed together. check the Reggie Wells joint for elaboration on that. Hollywood told me in the beginning of his career he was using that style to intro records, and then it progressed. At the same time Coke La Rock was talking on the mic as well. From all accounts he was not rapping as we know it today. In fact, when you read my story "Once Upon A Time in the Boogie Down Bronx" you'll see Kool Herc's take on the rappin'.

I gotta add to this conversation what Pete Jones told me - and he told Jayquan the same thing too, no one person created anything, it all emerged from different things. Mike Barnes, I read somewhere that Tee Scott and Walter Gibbons used to mix breaks in their sets, is that true, did you witness that? Those dudes were some real fly spinners in their time and they were doing their thing in the mid 70's too.

The point I've been trying to make for years is that no one's contributions should be dismissed. I have debated Bambaataa, Caz and Toney Tone on this very issue many times. Kool Herc shut me down as soon as I mentioned Hollywood, but, it ain''t just a coincidence that the man is credited by many many many many peo[ple as being the father of rap. Whether you like his style of rhyming or his rhymes or not, the man has been credited by people for being the father of rap for three decades. And I gotta add, during the period before records he was known on the streets in every borough as the king of rap. Don't agree don't listen to me just ask around... people from outside of the Bronx will credit Wood day and night. In the Bronx - no, them dudes front on Wood like its a contact sport. For real.

When I first heard Afrika Bam talking about Wood in interviews he would be very dismissive of him and say that he played disco for that hustle type crowd , the bourgeois Black type crowd. He said that so many times and always said the words "disco" and "Hustle" in the same sentence so that a person reading it would think: white suit and open silk shirt and white folks doing the hustle...

Not true. And not one reporter back then asked him to clarify that statement.


When I interviewed Wood, I asked him, so did you play at Studio 54? He said 'Oh hell no. I played for the hustlers. You know the brothers who were about their money and dressin fly who came sharp to the party. You know the powder people.

Which is a Big difference! He was playing for Freddy Myers, Guy Fisher, Bats Ross, Pee Wee Kirkland and people like that. That ain't the Steve Rubell/Mark Benacke crowd, oh hell no! Them dudes were in the streets for real!


When I interviewed Kool Herc he told me that he and Coke used to play at spots that were kind of sort of like 'Speak-easies" he told me. It was an older crowd, they were more mellow, so he couldn't rock APACHE he played things like T Plays it Cool. He told me that's where Guy Fisher and Bats Ross and them dudes would check him out at. Later Fisher and ROss would check him out at Executive Playhouse and Hevalo as well. So you see, how the two scenes would overlap?

And it Flash, Theodore, Starsky, Pete Jones, Wood and others to played on the same bill together from time to time.
 

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@IllmaticDelta From the last post, it really does look like jealousy, and ego, is stopping the truth from being told. The jealous part is them not doing it like the "disco dj's" were doing it at the time, and they didn't get the props those dj's got, so once they seen hip hop was gaining some traction they claimed it as their own. The ego is not letting them acknowledge the truth or at least tell the truth. They are even arguing with each other as to who started it. To me that sounds like a collusion that is starting to fall apart!
 

IllmaticDelta

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@IllmaticDelta From the last post, it really does look like jealousy, and ego, is stopping the truth from being told. The jealous part is them not doing it like the "disco dj's" were doing it at the time, and they didn't get the props those dj's got, so once they seen hip hop was gaining some traction they claimed it as their own. The ego is not letting them acknowledge the truth or at least tell the truth. They are even arguing with each other as to who started it. To me that sounds like a collusion that is starting to fall apart!

True. These Bronx dudes trying to take all the credit:mjlol:

Herc doesn't like Hollywood at all he even once hated Flash:russ:

According to Nelson George, Herc has always been indignant toward the competition. “I remember him having resentment toward Grandmaster Flash when I first interviewed him in 1977.” Years later, when George campaigned to have Herc included on the Hip Hop Honors of 2004, he was annoyed that D.J. Hollywood was also included. “Herc was very upset.”

http://nymag.com/anniversary/40th/50665/index2.html


From the same markskillz guy:

I think you are talking about an article that Kurtis Blow wrote, it was for the liners for the History of Hip Hop series it was a CD comp he put together. Somewhere in it, Kurtis said something to the effect that Hollywood and Herc couldn't stand each other.

I have interviewed both men - extensively I might add. I can say that Hollywood holds no beef nor grudge or any bad feelings toward Herc.

Herc has gone on record - as has Bambaataa, and said, that Hollywood wasn't hip hop and didn't start hip hop.

Wood told me in my interviews with him and a really good one that he did with with my friend and collegue Davey D, that he didn't start hip hop and doesn't take credit for it.


Davey did a phone interview with Kurtis Blow, Kool Herc and Dj Hollywood - Herc flat out said, "You didn't start hip hop you weren't hip hop", to which Wood responded something to the effect of, "Ok, I'm not hip hop, but as far as rap goes, yes I am one of the founding fathers of rap - not hip hop".

I am working with my editors at Wax Poetics to see how quickly we can get my article with Eddie Cheba out. I talked with Cheba at great lengths and got a lot of good info from him. I honestly don't know when Wax will be dropping that issue- but I promise you it is GHETTO RED HOT.

But before that issue drops I wrote one about Planet Rock - I interviewed the MC's for this one: GLOBE and Mr Biggs. Mr Biggs told me "Rap started with guys like DJ Hollywood and Eddie Cheba and Jocko Henderson, they had that radio style of rap."

I asked him about Kool Herc and he said the most interesting thing to me:

"You know, alot of people got Kool Herc twisted, back in the days Kool Herc was not hip hop. He played for the older crowd the bougousie type of crowd. They wore mock necks and things like that, we were [the Black Spades/Zulu] hip hop back then. His crowd left him and he started playing for us."


As b-boys started growing up they went from the hardcore b-boy clubs to the older set where deejays like Hollywood and Cheba ruled. As much as I love hip hop today, I cannot hang out with a bunch of youngsters. When I go out I get dressed up a lil somethin throw on my nice ****, no what I mean? I don't drink 40's - I'm damn near 40 can't be drinkin that ****. I drink red wine now. I'm married I take my wife with me we hang out a little somethin somethin and it's all good ya know.

Now when i was younger I rolled to certain sets in my sweat suit and hat and sneakers, I drank beer all night, I went with my home boys, I rolled around the spot a little somethin collecting numbers and whatever have you- that's how I rolled back then - but mostly i was there to check out the deejays and get up on some girls!

That is the transition cats made from Flash, AJ, Herc and Theodore parties (sneakers and jeans) to Pete Jones, Flowers, Plummer, Reggie Wells, Hollywood, Cheba parties (slacks, shirt, jewelry, dress shoes)

In case ya don't know Mr Biggs was/is a very close friend of Bam's and an original member of the Zulu Nation - matter of fact he went with Bam from the Spades to Organization to the Zulu's.


Herc told me (do a google and you can hear the audio interview that Davey D and I did with him) that he and Coke played at after hours spots, he referred to them as "speak-easies", he said the music was a little more laid back so he'd play stuff like "T Play's It Cool", "Change (Makes You Want to Hustle)" all that kind of stuff - and who would be there? Nicky's people.

Those guys transitioned out of Herc parties into Pete Jones/Hollywood type spots. You know as you get older you ain't trying to be around a bunch of kids, you want to be around people your age. You want to dress up so that you can catch the ladies in the house and buy them drinks and whatnot so that you get their phone numbers and run your game...

This quote here from Mr Biggs: "You know, alot of people got Kool Herc twisted, back in the days Kool Herc was not hip hop. He played for the older crowd the bougousie type of crowd. They wore mock necks and things like that, we were [the Black Spades/Zulu] hip hop back then. His crowd left him and he started playing for us."
Doesn't contradict anything when you think about it - it backs it up.

Herc played for the people he went to school with when he first started - that was the first audience, from what i can tell they weren't all gang members and things like that, they were regular kids from average homes. In fact, in some interviews Herc has done he has said as much, that his audience wasn't as hard core as would be believed. But those people graduated from high school and went to college, after a while they wanted to hang out in more mature spots.

In the book 'Can't Stop Won't Stop" Flash told my man Jeff Chang: "After a while I started noticing my crowd was disappearing. Turns out they were going to a place called Club 371 where this big fat guy who called himself Dj Hollywood was rocking the hell out of them people."

Depending on where you were from back then, determined what you were exposed to first.

But the most important thing that I want people to walk away with from this series of articles that I am doing (which started with Reggie Wells, DJ Hollywood, Disco Fever, One Night at the Executive Playhouse and ends by the way with Eddie Cheba), is that, yes, there were two different camps for hip hop back then the commercial side were the Uptown cats Pete Jones, Hollywood and Cheba; the hardcore side: Flash, Herc, Bam, Aj, Theodore...

Both camps started roughly at the same time and did basically the same things. Yes, there were differences (scratching and record selection) but it was basically the same thing. Chuck D and Kurtis Blow told it to me the best: They took hip hop and put a suit and bow tie on it, they made it classy for the over 18 crowd outside of the Bronx.
 

IllmaticDelta

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another dj from the black disco scene Reggie Wells

tYhIO1e.jpg


(standing with Kool Herc)

Cats on the hiphop circuit know about the work Reggie Wells put in at Club 371(Along with Hollywood, Eddie Cheeba, Junbug/Rip), During the mid 70's to early 80's, But, Cats on the dance music circuit most definitely know about Reggie Wells reputation for rockin a spot all-night to the morning lite at Justines(35thst and 8thave in Manhattan),

From 1979-1984, Reggie Wells started mixing on the Dance music circuit in 1974(Along with Reggie Wells mixing on the radio at CCNY in Harlem, During the mid/late 70's too, Reggie Wells was also mixing on BLS during the late 70's(1978-1980), Too, Reggie Wells, Junbug and Lovebug Starski, Are a few of the cats that i have ever heard, Who could

Rock a party for any type of crowd(Dance music crowd/R&B commercial crowd, Hiphop crowd, Stickup kid crowd, Big Willy drug dealer crowd, Etc), Reggie Wells was one of the premiere Dj's in New York, During ther late 70's to late 80's, Reggie Wells was one of the first cats to mix on the Intrepid(Battleship on 45thst and the Westside Highway),


he didn't do syncopated rhyming like Hollywood, he just did slick talk over the record more in the way like Coke La Rock/Herc



“Hotel/Motel, Holiday Inn, if you don’t tell, then I won’t tell, but I know where you been!”
That’s official son, that’s the original version of the chant that Big Bank Hank used in Rapper’s Delight. It started at a spot called Club 371, way back in 1976. It’s the spot where Harlem’s smooth style came to the Boogie Down Bronx. It’s also the spot where four Manhattan deejays pioneered the disco side of hip hop.

“See, after the club, if you met a young lady and you wanted to take her to a motel or whatever, the place to go was the Courtesy in Jersey”, said pioneer deejay Reggie Wells.

“We called it the “Big C”, so if you were at the “Big C” after the club and somebody saw your car there; you’d find a note on your windshield that said “Hotel/Motel, Holiday Inn, if you don’t tell then I won’t tell, but I know where you been!”

Around the same time that a Bronx deejay named Kool Herc was pioneering the break beat style that would later be called hip hop, black club deejays in Manhattan were refining a slick style of talk over disco records.

“It wasn’t really rhyming with the music, just saying slick stuff over the music,” says Wells, “I’d say something like: This is the man with the golden voice, that talks more shyt than a toilet bowl can flush, do more gigs than your grand momma wear wigs, got more clothes than you should wear pantyhose, yes baby sexy lady I hear ya hummin’ I see you comin’, come on momma with your bad self, keep a pep in your step – ain’t no time for no half steppin’. It’s W-e- double L-s, the worlds exciting and most long lasting sound…WELLS…if you hear any noise, its just Reggie Wells and the boys.”
Starting in 1974, CCNY student Reggie Wells went on-air at WCCR. One of the students that was there at the time was rap pioneer Kurtis Blow. Wells, who got his inspiration to be a deejay from WWRL radio personality Hank Spann, is one of the few deejays of his generation to play in both clubs and on the radio.

With a changing voice at the age of 13, Wells took to crank calling random people in the phone book, “ I would call somebody up and say, “Hello, is this the Smith residence?” and I’d pretend like I was on the radio – I had the radio up real loud so that the person on the other end would think I was from a radio station – they’d be like, “Yeah it is!” and I’d say, “If you can name your favorite radio station, I have a grand prize selected just for you. They’d go “WWRL” and I’d say, “Yes, this is WWRL, and my name is Reggie Wells, and you just won a brand new Panasonic color television set that doesn’t work!”

“Hearing people respond as if I was on the radio, made me think, that, maybe that’s what I should be doing.”

The first club that Wells started rappin’ on the mike at, was on 67th St. and was called Le Martinique and after that, he did clubs like Cork in the Bottle and Casablanca. But the place that made him a legend in the city was Club 371 in the Bronx, that’s where he joined such legends as rap innovators Eddie Cheeba, DJ Hollywood and the late-but unsung hero DJ Junebug.

A group called the Ten Good Guys owned Club 371, and it was there, that the four deejays bought Harlem’s style to the Bronx. Men wore dress shirts, slacks and dress shoes and women got in their fly wares as well, when they went out to party at 371.

However, before it was a spot for the disco side of hip hop, it had another reputation, “Club 371 was where big-time gangsters like Nicky Barnes and his crew used to hang out at in the Bronx”, says foundation-era promoter Van Silk.

“All the hustler types that went to 371 shopped at AJ Lester’s on 125th St., you had to be making money then to shop there. We bought nothing off the rack, everything was tailor-made. Brothers today don’t know about getting their pants measured from their waist to their toes”, said Silk, who back then was known as RC.

“Ron Isley and that old R&B group Black Ivory; they shopped at AJ Lester’s too. Brothers used to go there and buy sharkskin suits and gator shoes and Al Packer sweaters,” added Silk.

On the hip hop scene at that time, at clubs like the Hevalo and the Dixie, hip hop audiences wore sneakers and jeans and mock necks to jams. But, for the most part, initially, hip hop jams were in parks where anyone could attend.

“I remember going to Club 371 and standing in the middle of the place, and a record with a break came on, and we started breaking, and Hollywood, he’s my man and I love him to death, got on the mike and said, “There will be no diving on the floor in here!” That’s the kind of spot that was,” says foundation deejay and hip hop pioneer Toney Tone of the Cold Crush Brothers.

We played break down parts of records at Club 371, but we didn’t specialize in that,” says legendary rap innovator DJ Hollywood.

“One reason that there was no break-dancing there was, because, for one thing, you couldn’t dance with a young lady, and be spinning on the floor. Girls were not going for that”, said Wells.

Harlem was on some smooth shyt way before the Bronx. In Harlem, we were about having money, and rocking nice clothes, and having your hustle game on right. All that diving on the floor shyt, naw, that wasn’t happening. See while you down there on the floor, some smooth cat has come along and stole your girl!” said Hollywood.

“The real hustlers there didn’t drink. Their thing was to keep their game sharp, so if they did drink – they drank Perrier water”, said Wells.

“At that time, we drank Pipers, Moet and Don P. Drinking Don P at that time was the equivalent of drinking Cristal today. You see, back then; it was cool to drink a split. Nowadays, you see a brother in the club, and he’s walking around the club, with a bottle of Cristal – back then, you didn’t mind drinking a split. You didn’t have to buy the bottle – and your girl didn’t mind drinking a split either. You never saw anybody walking around with a bottle, we kept it in the bucket.”

“371 was one of the best clubs I ever worked for; the management, the staff, the deejays, I liked working with all of them. It’s rare that you get so many deejays together and they all got along. I met people that would come to 371 from all over, from places like; Connecticut, New Jersey, Brooklyn, Queens, Philly; this was a club that was known by word of mouth,” says Wells.

The club was doing so well that the deejays could afford to lease cars, “Hey I had a Lincoln Continental, Hollywood had a Cadillac, Junebug had a Cadillac as well; and Eddie Cheeba had a caddy too – except I think he had a driver!”

“I’ll never forget Grandmaster Flash had a yellow Cadillac! And you know that album Kurtis Blow did, where he was wearing the white leather suit on the cover, called “Tough”? Well on the back he’s posing in front of a limousine, that was his limo!”

Over the years it has been said that the jocks at 371 played disco – and it’s true they did, but they played the popular records of that time, that would play on radio stations like WBLS and WKTU like “Melting Pot” by Booker T and the MG’s and “Double Cross” by First Choice. These are records that deejays play today when they play the type of music called ‘classics’.

“The stuff that guys like me and Hollywood, Eddie Cheeba, and god bless Junebug, the stuff that we were doing, at that time, no one else was doing in any club in New York City. I’d say, to me, rap kind of started there, in that club, even though I heard about what was going on in the parks, as far as in the clubs, on a regular basis, that’s one of the first places you heard rap. But back then, there wasn’t so much hip hop because we didn’t have hip hop on wax, the deejays were considered the hip hop artists, but we did our thing on the club scene over disco records,” says Wells.

The distinction between what the deejays did at 371 and what Flash, Bam and Herc were doing is important. Both scenes were well aware of each other, however, they played in different markets. Flash, Bam and Herc played in parks, while Hollywood, Cheeba and Reggie Wells played in clubs for an older adult audience. What is important to point out as well is that the deejays did sometimes jam together.


“I knew about Red Alert and Kool Herc and the rest of the guys, but we played in a different market,” adds Wells.

Q: So, when was the first time you met Lovebug Starski?
A: I met Starski, when he and Hollywood did a concert at CCNY. Brainstorm, Evelyn “Champagne” King and Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes were on the bill that night, and Hollywood and Starski, they rocked the shyt out of that crowd. I mean they totally blew them away. That style of rappin’ where they were talking with the music, I can’t tell you who really originated that style, cause you hear that this one started it - and that one started it; but for me coming from downtown, that was the first time that I had ever seen anyone do the rappin with the turntables and the mike on that level.
Q: So Hollywood was the first person that you saw rap?
A: Yes


vid with him playing disco-r&b type records and funk (breaks)

 

Juneya

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Good post illmatic delta,,sick of hearing these fukk boys say that Jamaica influenced hip hop when it was the other way around,,the U.S has had more influence over Jamaica like how they used to sing oldies like us back in the days,,the only thing Jamaica influenced was herc being born there,,that's it

The post is right. But Jamaica definitely influence hip hop.

The first "Rapper" was before ray Moore tho. Peetie Wheatstraw the devils son in law. He influenced Rudy ray Moore. Rap is definitely not a New York thing tho.

I'll give them hip hop culture as a whole.

But old boy that started the DJ in the park and public parties shyt was from Jamaica.
They did it in Miami around the same time too, that's actually how I hear uncle luke came up
 

DJ Mart-Kos

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Rappin came straight from Africa.
The first real rap recording was actually by a white guy but it came from the Blues that the slaves invented.

 

IllmaticDelta

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^You can find that kind of thing on alot of early Blues records but they don't fully flow like Rap.



 
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